Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Note in OP, 25/08

Backstreet Moyes

Blatter wrote: »

David McDonnell of the Mirror (another journo that gets briefed by the club imo) is saying that we're trying to sign Vidal on a pay as you play deal, where he would earn a basic salary plus more whenever he plays while Juve will get a lesser fee initially but more on top when he plays a certain number of times.

It fits in with the stories that he is still a target but his knee injury is causing the club concern.

I really don't think Vidal is going to be convinced to come on a pay as you play type of deal ridiculous if true. I would say if he was offered that he would tell the club where to go.

Leroy42

Nuts102 wrote: »

They want Chico we want Vidal. If they refuse to sell us Vidal we tell them to piss off.

Yeah, because we know they NEED Chico and we are fairly well stocked in CM!

Cookiemunster

redbaron_99 wrote: »

There is also this... I hope to God this is BS. If there's any truth in it, my suspicions of there being a collection of bad eggs in the squad will be confirmed, and could well explain what we've seen on the pitch in the first three games.

http://www.givemesport.com/498467-louis-van-gaal-struggling-to-convince-manchester-united-players?autoplay=on

I stopped reading when I got to 'According to The Evening Standard'

NoelJ

Nuts102 wrote: »

They want Chico we want Vidal. If they refuse to sell us Vidal we tell them to piss off.

I think they'd prefer to keep Vidal over Chico.

bullvine

Billy86 wrote: »

RVP 2005/06, age 22: 24 league games, 5 goals.

Danny Welbeck, 2013/14, age 22/23: 25 league games, 9 goals.

One of these played on a team that got to CL final, the other played for a team that were in such a shambles they went from Champions to a national laughing stock within half a season.

Players tend to get better as they get deeper into their 20s, especially at things like composure in front of goal...

Statistics??

Billy86

bullvine wrote: »

Statistics??

Statistics... AND context.

Cookiemunster

Billy86 wrote: »

RVP 2005/06, age 22: 24 league games, 5 goals.

Danny Welbeck, 2013/14, age 22/23: 25 league games, 9 goals.

One of these played on a team that got to CL final, the other played for a team that were in such a shambles they went from Champions to a national laughing stock within half a season.

Players tend to get better as they get deeper into their 20s, especially at things like composure in front of goal...

Billy86 wrote: »

Statistics... AND context.

Wasn't RVP still playing out on the wing back then? He wasn't played as a striker until Henry left.

Blatter

Nuts102 wrote: »

I really don't think Vidal is going to be convinced to come on a pay as you play type of deal ridiculous if true. I would say if he was offered that he would tell the club where to go.

Maybe, maybe not. His basic salary could be say £100k/week, which he would be paid no matter what, with say another £70-100k/week on top as long as he's fit.

TheDoc

Professional Griefer wrote: »

Yep, remember Sturridge before he went to Liverpool, not many rated him. Welbeck isn't as good as Sturridge was then, he'd want to start improving, he can't remain in the squad while putting in poor performances for much longer. Look at how long it took Chelsea to get a decent striker in, Arsenal also need one atm. When Rooney and RVP finish we'll have to replace them which could be really difficult.

Exactly. Sturridge did much of what Wellbeck does now, was let away for being a poor finisher.Took two moves before he sorted it out.

TheDoc

redbaron_99 wrote: »

bbc reporting that official bids have been made for chico. Valencia and Juventus said to be the clubs.

A ruthless poacher with horrendous ability outside the box.Hopefully fetches a good price, snatch their hand off. Hasn't developed into a good forward.

redbaron_99

redbaron_99 wrote: »

bbc reporting that official bids have been made for chico. Valencia and Juventus said to be the clubs.

Surely the question is asked;

Woodie: 'Yea, no problem. We can Sell Hernandez. By the way, what dafuqs the story with Vidal?

RayCun

redbaron_99 wrote: »

There is also this... I hope to God this is BS. If there's any truth in it, my suspicions of there being a collection of bad eggs in the squad will be confirmed, and could well explain what we've seen on the pitch in the first three games.

http://www.givemesport.com/498467-louis-van-gaal-struggling-to-convince-manchester-united-players?autoplay=on

It wouldn't surprise me if there was some of that going on, there's always going to be that kind of thing with a new manager, and players who are asked to change how they play, or are getting less game time, or aren't convinced by three at the back, whatever. Don't know if I'd even blame the players too much for reacting like that, it's just human nature.
I'd bet there was a lot of that going on last year, but it will be easier to force through changes this year because

• the players are coming off a **** season, rather than a title-winning season
• the manager starts with a lot of respect, not "what the **** have you ever done?"
• the first team now has 5 players who weren't used to 'the old way', plus RVP who is already happy with LVG
• LVG is not short of self-confidence, and will happily tell anybody to train his way or **** off

RayCun

RayCun wrote: »

It wouldn't surprise me if there was some of that going on, there's always going to be that kind of thing with a new manager, and players who are asked to change how they play, or are getting less game time, or aren't convinced by three at the back, whatever. Don't know if I'd even blame the players too much for reacting like that, it's just human nature.

I'd bet there was a lot of that going on last year, but it will be easier to force through changes this year because

• the players are coming off a **** season, rather than a title-winning season
• the manager starts with a lot of respect, not "what the **** have you ever done?"
• the first team now has 5 players who weren't used to 'the old way', plus RVP who is already happy with LVG
• LVG is not short of self-confidence, and will happily tell anybody to train his way or **** off

Sounds to me (and for not the first time) that the kling-ons are acting like spoilt, lazy, overpaid brats. Again until the hammer is slammed and someone is made an example of this ****e will continue.

TheDoc

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Sounds to me (and for not the first time) that the kling-ons are acting like spoilt, lazy, overpaid brats. Again until the hammer is slammed and someone is made an example of this ****e will continue.

I'd put RVP into that category. Clearly distanced himself from mess last year to maybe engineer a summer move. I'm convinced he was acting the bollox.

Mr_Roger_Bongos

I don't understand the rush to sell him.

Look at his stats - Under Fergusion, he was getting us 10 league goals a season.

Look at Solskjær's - Only a few per season more.

He seems happy being 3rd/4th choice striker, its a tricky role to fill in any club.

I think he's a solid player who always tries his best and looks like a happy positive influence in the team.

Why are we in such a rush to sell him?

Are we just assuming Wilson can come in fill this role?

Billy86

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Wasn't RVP still playing out on the wing back then? He wasn't played as a striker until Henry left.

He was splitting time between playing wide and up front, just like welbeck. Henry and Bergkamp were the established pairing, with Henry starting 30 league games and 2 sub appearances, while Bergkamp started 8 with 16 sub appearances. RVP started 13 and was a sub 11 times, while Welbeck started 15 and was a sub 10 times for us last season. They were very similar situations in that regard since Welbeck has spent an awful lot of his Utd career out wide.

Having taken a quick glance over Arsenals fixtures that year, it would appear the majority of games RVP started were up front, while the majority of his sub appearances were out wide, as Pires was getting up in years by then and Ljungberg's form had dropped off a lot if I recall.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005%E2%80%9306_Arsenal_F.C._season#Match_results

Mr_Roger_Bongos

Mr_Roger_Bongos wrote: »

I don't understand the rush to sell him.

Look at his stats - Under Fergusion, he was getting us 10 league goals a season.

Look at Solskjær's - Only a few per season more.

He seems happy being 3rd/4th choice striker, its a tricky role to fill in any club.

I think he's a solid player who always tries his best and looks like a happy positive influence in the team.

Why are we in such a rush to sell him?

Are we just assuming Wilson can come in fill this role?

Stats & goals as a poacher coming off the bench mostly.
It's been mentioned so many times, once he's outside of the box his link up play is not up to the standard.
This usually gets highlighted when he starts a match.

If he's brought on as a sub he's great at poaching, but that's all he's good for.
He's not willing to accept this sub role like solskjaer was and that's his issue.

Lord TSC

Headshot wrote: »

Surely if Chico goes to Juve, we can do a deal for Vidal.

Could be that we pull away based on his knee, or that Vidal has said he won't come. In which case, if Juventus off the best offer for Chico, no point cutting off our nose to spite our face....

TheDoc

Mr_Roger_Bongos wrote: »

I don't understand the rush to sell him.

Look at his stats - Under Fergusion, he was getting us 10 league goals a season.

Look at Solskjær's - Only a few per season more.

He seems happy being 3rd/4th choice striker, its a tricky role to fill in any club.

I think he's a solid player who always tries his best and looks like a happy positive influence in the team.

Why are we in such a rush to sell him?

Are we just assuming Wilson can come in fill this role?

Ignore the stats with him. There is no stat to show how horrendous he is receiving ball back to goal, and how his interplay is terrible.

magnumbud

Mr_Roger_Bongos wrote: »

I don't understand the rush to sell him.

Look at his stats - Under Fergusion, he was getting us 10 league goals a season.

Look at Solskjær's - Only a few per season more.

He seems happy being 3rd/4th choice striker, its a tricky role to fill in any club.

I think he's a solid player who always tries his best and looks like a happy positive influence in the team.

Why are we in such a rush to sell him?

Are we just assuming Wilson can come in fill this role?

i really dont think he is. he hasnt seemed the same players since fergie left maybe even before that when rvp was signed. he always seemed like a player who played with a smile on his face and doesnt do that anymore.

also he has been dropped by mexico for not getting enough game time and doubt that makes him happy

TheDoc

Dzeko got the label of super sub under Mancini. Completely superior player to Hernandez, both looked at as impact players at one point. Easy to see why Dzeko is a starter.

Backstreet Moyes

TheDoc wrote: »

A ruthless poacher with horrendous ability outside the box.Hopefully fetches a good price, snatch their hand off. Hasn't developed into a good forward.

He is a good forward and his game outside the box has improved although not top class. He is a poacher who relies on service, he has not become a bad striker the service has dried up. He has not regressed it's the quality of players behind him have regressed. Put him up front with good service behind him and he is a 20+ striker a season.

TheDoc

Nuts102 wrote: »

He is a good forward and his game outside the box has improved although not top class. He is a poacher who relies on service, he has not become a bad striker the service has dried up. He has not regressed it's the quality of players behind him have regressed. Put him up front with good service behind him and he is a 20+ striker a season.

Regression implies there was a standard or progression taking place. Chico has never developed beyond a poacher.

MagicIRL

Hernandez would excel in Spain playing in behind the defenders. Thought he would've ended up at A.Madrid when Costa left.

Crimson King

MagicIRL wrote: »

Hernandez would excel in Spain playing in behind the defenders. Thought he would've ended up at A.Madrid when Costa left.

Thought this too but of he is our last real negotiation tool, seeing as Nani is already committed to S. Lisbon for the season then I'm glad he stayed. If Juve fancy him, and are willing to sell Vidal then get the job done with a swap/ loan plus cash deal like Rojo's.

Will I Amnt

redbaron_99 wrote: »

There is also this... I hope to God this is BS. If there's any truth in it, my suspicions of there being a collection of bad eggs in the squad will be confirmed, and could well explain what we've seen on the pitch in the first three games.

http://www.givemesport.com/498467-louis-van-gaal-struggling-to-convince-manchester-united-players?autoplay=on

An unnamed star admitted to pals :eek:

OMG!!! It just has to be true.

Edit: I just love the quotes. Comedy gold.

Vic Vinegar

Will I Amnt wrote: »

An unnamed star admitted to pals :eek:

OMG!!! It just has to be true.

Yeah!

Completely shite article all round

Will I Amnt

Bombleswizzum wrote: »

Yeah!

Completely shite article all round

Read the quotes man, it's so contrived and painfully obvious that it's funny.

"What did Fergie used to do...oh yeah, the hair dryer, we'll mention that"

bangkok

Mr_Roger_Bongos wrote: »

I don't understand the rush to sell him.

Look at his stats - Under Fergusion, he was getting us 10 league goals a season.

Look at Solskjær's - Only a few per season more.

He seems happy being 3rd/4th choice striker, its a tricky role to fill in any club.

I think he's a solid player who always tries his best and looks like a happy positive influence in the team.

Why are we in such a rush to sell him?

Are we just assuming Wilson can come in fill this role?

we are not in the champions league, no league cup now, his development has gone backwards, terrible link up play, would be lucky to start 5 games this season, sell him while his value is still high

Mitch Connor

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Read the quotes man, it's so contrived and painfully obvious that it's funny.

"What did Fergie used to do...oh yeah, the hair dryer, we'll mention that"

Its hardly a rocking blow to VG either though, what an odd article.

Basically, the 'unnamed player' says:

1. It is taking time for the players to adjust to LVGs methods... Just like LVG said it would.
2. It is different to the old methods.... Yep, just like LVG said.
3. They are not saying the changes are wrong, just tough to grip on yet... OK, so?
4. It isn't working.... what exactly? We've lost 2 and drawn 1 of our first 3 games, we can all see it isn't working YET. Just as the player seemingly says.

Not exactly the 'lost the dressing room', 'players don't rate Moyes', 'training is boring', 'Fuk off Phil/Steve' talk we heard fairly quick last season.

redbaron_99

Will I Amnt wrote: »

An unnamed star admitted to pals :eek:

OMG!!! It just has to be true.

Edit: I just love the quotes. Comedy gold.

Did think it was BS. But you never really know, do you.

Maximus Alexander

redbaron_99 wrote: »

Did think it was BS. But you never really know, do you.

That's how they get you.

Strumms

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Read the quotes man, it's so contrived and painfully obvious that it's funny.

"What did Fergie used to do...oh yeah, the hair dryer, we'll mention that"

It's not beyond the realms of possibility that LVG has riled up one or two of the nonperforming 'stars'. There is a serious amount of deadwood at the football club that are stagnating and pulling in high wages that need to be moved on who may not take kindly to LVGs straight forward attitude and methods off the pitch. Clearing these people out imho is almost as equal a priority for the manager as making additions. We have more then enough in the squad in terms of numbers but its the quality we lack so with 3 more quality players added before the window and the following moved on...

Cleverly, Anderson, Welbeck, Fletcher, M.Keane plus a few other fringe players and loans etc we could consider this as good a window as possible perhaps given our situation and lack of CL on offer. Its is foolhardy to think this problem could be solved in one window it will be obviously next season when we will be competing for trophies again. 4th is the best we can hope for now.

redbaron_99

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

That's how they get you.

The men in black!

TheDoc

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Its hardly a rocking blow to VG either though, what an odd article.

Basically, the 'unnamed player' says:

1. It is taking time for the players to adjust to LVGs methods... Just like LVG said it would.
2. It is different to the old methods.... Yep, just like LVG said.
3. They are not saying the changes are wrong, just tough to grip on yet... OK, so?
4. It isn't working.... what exactly? We've lost 2 and drawn 1 of our first 3 games, we can all see it isn't working YET. Just as the player seemingly says.

Not exactly the 'lost the dressing room', 'players don't rate Moyes', 'training is boring', 'Fuk off Phil/Steve' talk we heard fairly quick last season.

Suggestion players questioned Moyes credentials.LVG central to modernisation of European football,managed superstars,plenty of titles,massive bollox

Crimson King

TheDoc wrote: »

Suggestion players questioned Moyes credentials.LVG central to modernisation of European football,managed superstars,plenty of titles,massive bollox

OT I know, but it must have taken all your patience to write that in one sentence. Tip my hat to you sir :P

Mitch Connor

TheDoc wrote: »

Suggestion players questioned Moyes credentials.LVG central to modernisation of European football,managed superstars,plenty of titles,massive bollox

Agreed - Moyes never won them over, seemingly. LVG apparently made agreat impression off the bat.

Training was supposed to be very physical, fitness and defensive based under Moyes, which the players didn't like. Under LVG it seems the complaint is simply that they are have trouble adapting to his needs, which is what he said would be the case. The players, from what I have read, seem generally happy with the style of training - very tactical and ball focused.

Maybe I will read or hear different in the coming months, but right now I don't see there being the kind of open dislike of LVG and his methods as we saw with Moyes.

Maximus Alexander

TheDoc wrote: »

Suggestion players questioned Moyes credentials.LVG central to modernisation of European football,managed superstars,plenty of titles,massive bollox

Ok, clarity has broken down due to the shortness of this post.



LvG is a massive bollox, or the article is massive bollox?

TheDoc

Crimson King wrote: »

OT I know, but it must have taken all your patience to write that in one sentence. Tip my hat to you sir :P

It's actually not so bad. Re-reading my own stuff looks like I'm just giving brutal, bludgeoning points to the bone

TheDoc

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Agreed - Moyes never won them over, seemingly. LVG apparently made agreat impression off the bat.

Training was supposed to be very physical, fitness and defensive based under Moyes, which the players didn't like. Under LVG it seems the complaint is simply that they are have trouble adapting to his needs, which is what he said would be the case. The players, from what I have read, seem generally happy with the style of training - very tactical and ball focused.

Maybe I will read or hear different in the coming months, but right now I don't see there being the kind of open dislike of LVG and his methods as we saw with Moyes.

Compare against say Magath. Both have intensity in training. LVG seems to factor time for players to adapt.

TheDoc

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Ok, clarity has broken down due to the shortness of this post.



LvG is a massive bollox, or the article is massive bollox?

LVG HAS massive bollox. Players question his credentials, pants dropped, treble ensues.

KH25

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Ok, clarity has broken down due to the shortness of this post.



LvG is a massive bollox, or the article is massive bollox?

Going by his time at Bayern he has massive bollox.

beno619

Chicha's build up play was much improved last season and there are lots of posts here highlighting it.

This is just a classic case of a player short of form and low on confidence, he played feck all football under Moyes last season even when Rooney and RVP were out, dropped for Mexico and probably wont feel any lower than he currently does in his career.

He's a great player and needs to leave for his own good, his contribution to 2 titles and a Champions League run were invaluable and the fickle mindedness and the goldfish memories displayed here at times is sickening.

TheDoc

I think pertinent point was LVG with Gnev.Explicitly outlined his crash course in philosophy/play style takes 90 days.

TheDoc

beno619 wrote: »

Chicha's build up play was much improved last season and there are lots of posts here highlighting it.

This is just a classic case of a player short of form and low on confidence, he played feck all football under Moyes last season even when Rooney and RVP were out, dropped for Mexico and probably wont feel any lower than he currently does in his career.

He's a great player and needs to leave for his own good, his contribution to 2 titles and a Champions League run were invaluable and the fickle mindedness and the goldfish memories displayed here at times is sickening.

A sicko I am, for I don't believe for one second he has improved, and shown anything consistent in regards to a forwards play.

Spazdarn

beno619 wrote: »

Chicha's build up play was much improved last season and there are lots of posts here highlighting it.

This is just a classic case of a player short of form and low on confidence, he played feck all football under Moyes last season even when Rooney and RVP were out, dropped for Mexico and probably wont feel any lower than he currently does in his career.

He's a great player and needs to leave for his own good, his contribution to 2 titles and a Champions League run were invaluable and the fickle mindedness and the goldfish memories displayed here at times is sickening.

Feel you're being a bit too flippant with use of great there... he is a good player, but he's had to receive the ball with his back to goal a lot in the last season, and that's not his forte. He doesn't offer as much as the other strikers.

buckfasterer

KH25 wrote: »

Going by his time at Bayern he has massive bollox.

Subbing on Krul in the World Cup with a minute to go and winning the shoot out shows he's got massive bollox!

TheDoc

ToiletFusion wrote: »

Feel you're being a bit too flippant with use of great there... he is a good player, but he's had to receive the ball with his back to goal a lot in the last season, and that's not his forte. He doesn't offer as much as the other strikers.

Not a great player, not a bad player. Specific talents suited to specific style of play.He's a 90's striker lost in the 00's.

TheDoc

buckfasterer wrote: »

Subbing on Krul in the World Cup with a minute to go and winning the shoot out shows he's got massive bollox!

Blown out of proportion imo. Hardly a risk subbing in your superior peno stopper when it matters

twam2008

Offers between 12 and 15m in for Chico.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/aug/28/valencia-juventus-manchester-united-javier-hernandez