Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Note in OP, 25/08

redbaron_99

TheTownie wrote: »

Injuries aside, someone tell me the advantage of having three of our CBs on the field as opposed to having two CBs split wide and have a midfielder, i.e. Blind/Carrick, drop deep.

Because when it works, there is three at the back, wing backs become wingers and you get an extra body further up the pitch.

I sound like a broken record, but wing backs are very important to this system. Rafeal and shaw will make a huge difference. Just think about it: young and Valencia are our wing backs... Young and Valencia... Young... Valencia....

The system also requires some int the middle to be very mobile and drop in to pick up the ball and get turned on it before an opposition player is stuck to his back. Fletcher simply cannot do that. He is standing still in the centre circle surrounded by three opposition players .

Essentially today, there was no way out from the back other than to hit it long.

Things will change dramatically when we get proper players into these positions. Then you will see the beauty of this system.

Edit: and that's not to say LVG won't use 4-3-3. He can't do it at the moment. Would anyone be confident of young and Valencia as part of a back four??

magnumbud

frustrating again but hopefully get shaw rojo smalling herrera fellaini rafael into the squad for the next game and add blind and 1 or 2 more

TheTownie

redbaron_99 wrote: »

Because when it works, there is three at the back, wing backs become wingers and you get an extra body further up the pitch.

I sound like a broken record, but wing backs are very important to this system. Rafeal and shaw will make a huge difference. Just think about it: young and Valencia are our wing backs... Young and Valencia... Young... Valencia....

The system also requires some int the middle to be very mobile and drop in to pick up the ball and get turned on it before an opposition player is stuck to his back. Fletcher simply cannot do that. He is standing still in the centre circle surrounded by three opposition players .

Essentially today, there was no way out from the back other than to hit it long.

Things will change dramatically when we get proper players into these positions. Then you will see the beauty of this system.

I think Rafael/Shaw will improve the situation but IMO the 3 CBs aren't good enough to implement it properly.

Cantona's Collars

Watching Young & Valencia today was horrific,Valencia got up & down the pitch but not one of his crosses were a success.The less said about Young the better.
They are depended on to provide width but at this stage we'd be better off picking somebody from the crowd than either of them.It must be heartbreaking being a United striker watching the ball either land wide or in the 'keepers hands from Young or constantly being smashed against the fullbacks legs by Valencia.

This failing means that the play ends up compressed into the middle and is easy to defend against as it turns into the same routine over & over with zero variation.

keano25

magnumbud wrote: »

frustrating again but hopefully get shaw rojo smalling herrera fellaini rafael into the squad for the next game and add blind and 1 or 2 more

we might not be getting rojo now.

TheTownie

On course for 10,000 posts in 2 weeks. Must be a some sort of record since the 10,000 post rule came into being.

BloodBath

Di Maria looked excellent for a debut. A couple of Scholes like passes to the forwards from the midfield and a couple of nice runs.

He created our best chances. A good sign of things to come.

Mata was awful. These are the kind of hit and miss performances Chelsea fans were telling us about.

3-5-2 does not look like it's the best formation for us at the moment. Maybe when the full squad is available and fit but not now.

Van Gaal did say he would change it if it's not working. It's not working.

Headshot

lol today just got better

Cantona's Collars

Former United man Diouf scores for Stoke against City.

redbaron_99

Goal of the season by Diouf

TheDoc

LVG confirmed Blind men route for medical...just if it wasn't confirmed beyond doubt. Said that players he's bringing in arnt panic buys but thought out signings.

Headshot

TheDoc wrote: »

LVG confirmed Blind men route for medical...just if it wasn't confirmed beyond doubt. Said that players he's bringing in arnt panic buys but thought out signings.

You dont run before you can walk. LVG knows what he's doing. I reckon these results will be all forgotten about soon enough

HS is positive these days

edgecutter

3-5-2 is a major problem and LVG must see the problems we all see.

Playing 3 at the back is ok when you have the players, but we have 3 inexperienced CBs who aren't very good on the ball and look confused playing that way.

Our wingers weren't very good last year and now in this formation they are more isolated than ever and can't make things happen.

Our front two were starved of possession, so we play a formation that congests the middle and isolates them further.

irishfeen

With a fully fit squad I can't wait to see how LVG sets us up in terms of players in positions... One thing for sure is we will continue to struggle every time Young, Valencia and Fletcher are named in a starting team - they are IMO mid to lower PL standard players now.

The_Kew_Tour

Thank **** for International break.

And thank God I did not have to watch todays game cause of work.

Praise the Lord for his good deed!!!!

TheDoc

Headshot wrote: »

You dont run before you can walk. LVG knows what he's doing. I reckon these results will be all forgotten about soon enough

HS is positive these days

I'm not freaking at all. Saw the fixture list and did get a bit giddy thinking wow if we pit s good run together there we might be in with a shout.

But its cool. OK hasn't gone great but its a long season. Who knows about a title challenge...but I wouldn't so ruling things out or calling it a disastrous season after four games haha.

The reason why 3-5-2 is being stuck with BTW..is the players need to learn it. There is no point binning it when things look ropey. We need the players to learn it

Cantona's Collars

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Thank **** for International break.

And thank God I did not have to watch todays game cause of work.

Praise the Lord for his good deed!!!!

Watch it tonight if you have trouble sleeping.

When will the Eureka moment arrive and it all suddenly clicks with the players as to how to play this system and we see some free flowing football again?

RobertKK

Di Maria looked good for his debut and clearly needed to be given the ball more.

We didn't concede, our first clean sheet, should have gotten a penalty but still, without that should have been scoring.

At this stage just listening to Taylor Swift, Shake it off on repeat.

United really need to shake it off when it comes to their current form.

How Soon Is Now

RobertKK wrote: »

Di Maria looked good for his debut and clearly needed to be given the ball more.

We didn't concede, our first clean sheet, should have gotten a penalty but still, without that should have been scoring.

At this stage just listening to Taylor Swift, Shake it off on repeat.

United really need to shake it off when it comes to their current form.

Things are bad and all but ffs don't start listening to Taylor Swift!!

Life is never that bad!!

Adamocovic

Zaha scored for Palace today. Equaliser to earn the a point it looks like.

irishfeen

Well the day wasn't all bad

MisterAnarchy

Headshot wrote: »

Not a great selection to be fair but your right Rooney shouldnt be captain or for me at the club

Should have sold him to Chelsea for £40m when they had a chance .
It would allow Utd to get a proper clinical striker like Falcao and also make Chelsea a worse team .

Adamocovic

irishfeen wrote: »

Well the day wasn't all bad

I think with all the talk about our defensive weaknesses it was good to get a clean sheet. Even if it was a shaky game....and of course other positives too

Royal Irish

zerks wrote: »

Watch it tonight if you have trouble sleeping.

When will the Eureka moment arrive and it all suddenly clicks with the players as to how to play this system and we see some free flowing football again?

A good defensive midfielder is all we need. I'd love United to get Carvalho and could play a 4-3-1-2 with Carvalho dropping in between the centre backs to act as a third when not in possession of the ball.

Van Gaal used to play this exact system but for the life of me I can't remember what team it was he used it at. Anyone remember?

RobertKK

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

Things are bad and all but ffs don't start listening to Taylor Swift!!

Life is never that bad!!

Nah, she is great.

Listening to her and watching Man City lose to Stoke at home.
Gaining one point on a top 4 rival
#ShakingItOff

The_Kew_Tour

Worst day ever.

Its bad when im lookinf forward to Ireland v Georgia next week more then QPR the following week

How Soon Is Now

RobertKK wrote: »

Nah, she is great.

Listening to her and watching Man City lose to Stoke at home.
Gaining one point on a top 4 rival
#ShakingItOff

I'll take your word for it ha!

Liam O

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

Should have sold him to Chelsea for £40m when they had a chance .
It would allow Utd to get a proper clinical striker like Falcao and also make Chelsea a worse team .

Such bull. United would have finished 10th or something last season without Rooney. He's not the problem. Fletcher and Jones today were. Nothing coming through the middle and Di Maria on the wing rather than staying central meant no cohesion to the team. Also what happens when it goes wide as an out ball? It goes to Ashley Young or Valencia who are beyond useless.

It's amazing those 2 have been my biggest problem with the team for about 3 seasons now. Nani and Kagawa leaving and these 2 jokers sticking around? WTF?

irishfeen

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Worst day ever.

Its bad when im lookinf forward to Ireland v Georgia next week more then QPR the following week

Jaysus things not that bad ... Blind signs and we didn't lose - onwards and upwards.

MisterAnarchy

Liam O wrote: »

Such bull. United would have finished 10th or something last season without Rooney. He's not the problem. Fletcher and Jones today were. Nothing coming through the middle and Di Maria on the wing rather than staying central meant no cohesion to the team. Also what happens when it goes wide as an out ball? It goes to Ashley Young or Valencia who are beyond useless.

It's amazing those 2 have been my biggest problem with the team for about 3 seasons now. Nani and Kagawa leaving and these 2 jokers sticking around? WTF?

He isnt the main problem of course but he isnt worth 300k a week and £40m for him would have been great money so the club could buy a younger pacier more clinical striker.

I agree with everything else you say though.
How Young and Valencia are still getting games is absolutely bizarre.
Whats more bizarre is that Utds sole strategy today was to get the ball wide to those 2 clowns .

advertsfox

Even the mighty Man City lost today lads, now its time for the international break to get our team back to 100%.

We have signed Shaw, Herrera, Rojo, Di Maria and Blind (so far) - that's impressive for any team, esp. with no CL football. Today was better than the other games, formation played a big part.

Onwards and upwards

irishfeen

https://twitter.com/Squawka/status/505712694260150272

https://twitter.com/Squawka/status/505705333801906176

... Doesn't really need explaining does it.

Liam O

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

He isnt the main problem of course but he isnt worth 300k a week and £40m for him would have been great money so the club could buy a younger pacier more clinical striker.

I agree with everything else you say though.
How Young and Valencia are still getting games is absolutely bizarre.
Whats more bizarre is that Utds sole strategy today was to get the ball wide to those 2 clowns .

Nobody is worth 300k a week but that's not what the club are paying him sure. He's been the team's best player since Ronaldo left and stayed for 10 years. Probably on about the same as Yaya which is fair enough when you think about it.

Can we expect any of Herrera, Fellaini, Shaw to be back for next weekend? All would improve the team, even Fellaini.

Though Di Maria did quite well on his debut, made glorious chances for Mata and RVP who couldn't finish, and had some lovely touches that other players don't seem to be making.

Rooney, why the hell will he not take a shot from outside the box anymore?

Liam O

irishfeen wrote: »

https://twitter.com/Squawka/status/505712694260150272

https://twitter.com/Squawka/status/505705333801906176/photo/1

... Doesn't really need explaining does it.

1 was good iirc and took a great defensive header to get over the bar. Also as much as I like to stick the boot into him, RVP and Rooney weren't taking up the best of positions and running away from the ball a lot. The team are lazy imo. Want to play the game at their pace and still have a sense of entitlement. When a team changes the pace they can't cope.

MagicMarker

Sarai Brief Thriller wrote: »

Can we expect any of Herrera, Fellaini, Shaw to be back for next weekend? All would improve the team, even Fellaini.

Though Di Maria did quite well on his debut, made glorious chances for Mata and RVP who couldn't finish, and had some lovely touches that other players don't seem to be making.

Rooney, why the hell will he not take a shot from outside the box anymore?

Next game isn't until the 14th.

jaykay74

Its almost like Valencia just smacks the ball at full pace with no regard for where anyone is in the box or how the defender trying to block him is positioned. Couple of times today he just smashed the ball into a defender right next to him.

tayto lover

Killian O'Connor can be a bit selfish. Kicking there when he had men loose and in a better position.

MagicMarker

MagicMarker wrote: »

Next game isn't until the 14th.

Ah yeah, this stupid international window.

How Soon Is Now

tayto lover wrote: »

Killian O'Connor can be a bit selfish. Kicking there when he had men loose and in a better position.

If mayo don't want him would he be any good for United?

DrPhilG

It really is the "perfect storm" of problems for United at the minute. New manager, huge squad overhaul, change of formation and an injury crisis. But for me the injuries are the biggest issue. The 352 hasn't been working at the minute, and one of the main reasons is that Young and Valencia have been terrible.

So why don't we move back to a flat back 4? Because that would leave Young and Valencia as full backs, where they would be even worse than at wing back!

Shaw and Rafael in the wing back spots would make an enormous difference. Same in the middle, losing Herrera was a disaster, leaves us totally reliant on Fletcher who hasn't looked good.

My main criticism of LVG is that he has waited so long to take the axe to the squad. I know he said all along that he would wait until he had assessed everyone before acting but he should have realised sooner that the likes of Valencia and Cleverley are useless. Young flattered to deceive in America which probably didn't help.

Things will pick up. I still think that we will finish in the top 6. Top 4 will be a stretch, unless we go on an epic run later in the year. Blind will be a good addition, provided the BBC and Sky etc stop calling him a left back. He has played LB and CB but he has spent the last year or 2 as a defensive midfielder and won Dutch player of the year in that position. I'd like to think that we will also add a few others too.

After the international break we will have
Shaw
Herrera
Rafael
Blind
Rojo

All back in the team, plus any other new arrivals. Not only does that give us proper options to actually play the wing back roles, it also opens up the possibility of switching to 433.

It's going to be a long hard season, but I remain optimistic in the long term.

irishfeen

tayto lover wrote: »

Killian O'Connor can be a bit selfish. Kicking there when he had men loose and in a better position.

A new United signing? Who is this Killian O'Connor you speak of? :pac:

DM_7

Van Gaals system is completely new for most United players, for example default in England is kick it long if you can't see anything on.

The full backs playing the last few games are not good enough on the ball. So I agree with the lads saying it should be much better getting Shaw and Rafael into the team.

Valencia is horrible and should be gone, its really annoying to see Evra in Turin, if we still had him or another left back, Young (as bad as he can be) could go to the right and would be much better as the back up right sided player.

The Centre backs need to improve in possession rather than passing it between themselves, getting bored and kicking long. Midfield and attacking players need to get used to taking up positions to receive the ball rather than getting forward and waiting for the ball to come from wide areas like they were under Moyes.

Expecting these things to improve when Herrera, Rojo and Blind come in (alongside Di Maria, Mata) who are good on the ball and used to playing a more continental style. The British taught players should improve when they are playing with lads that know what they are doing.

Its no surprise that all of Van Gaals signings can take on different roles, are good on the ball. I am looking forward to the next few games when injuries should ease a little and new players available.

DrPhilG

PS, we need a RB/RWB. Valencia has proved resoundingly that he's not good enough.

Still haven't heard anything directly from LVG about Rafael. I thought he was back from injury but not a sign of him.

DrPhilG

Sarai Brief Thriller wrote: »

Ah yeah, this stupid international window.

This is probably the first time I've ever looked forward to the international friendlies. We need a breather to get some injured players back.

*I realise I've just cursed us and we will see another 3 or 4 injured on international duty...

Backstreet Moyes

Liam O wrote: »

Such bull. United would have finished 10th or something last season without Rooney. He's not the problem. Fletcher and Jones today were. Nothing coming through the middle and Di Maria on the wing rather than staying central meant no cohesion to the team. Also what happens when it goes wide as an out ball? It goes to Ashley Young or Valencia who are beyond useless.

It's amazing those 2 have been my biggest problem with the team for about 3 seasons now. Nani and Kagawa leaving and these 2 jokers sticking around? WTF?

What game were you watching Jones was the best player on the pitch.

How Soon Is Now

tayto lover wrote: »

Killian O'Connor can be a bit selfish. Kicking there when he had men loose and in a better position.

Seems like as soon as he's mentioned in United thread he picks up an injury! Where a jinx!!!

Copper_pipe

tayto lover wrote: »

Killian O'Connor can be a bit selfish. Kicking there when he had men loose and in a better position.

Aidan O shea, handy at centre forward.His brother,Seamus is a good centre field player!

Liam O

Nuts102 wrote: »

What game were you watching Jones was the best player on the pitch.

Not the player himself but the role he's playing. In that position you have to be able to take it out of defense and he didn't do that once.

Lord TSC

Liam O wrote: »

Such bull. United would have finished 10th or something last season without Rooney. He's not the problem.

There's no way we can know what would have happened without Rooney; it's as easy to say "Without Rooney, Kagawa would have gotten more games in his prefered position and would have torn teams asunder, helping us to win the league." Its all hypothetical.

What we can say is that he was a central figure, if not THE central figure, last year and we came 7th; that he played nearly more games than anyone else (iirc, Evra was the only one ahead of him). We can say he struggled against the bigger teams with nearly all his goals coming in games against smaller teams we beat by 1 or 2.

Furthermore, sentimentality ("He was good a few years back, so lets keep him now") is a major reason we're having trouble; too many players are getting free passes because they were good two or three seasons ago, and I've been happy that some players are being shifted to get over that tbh.