Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Note in OP, 25/08

kryogen

Manutd_4life wrote: »

Is there even a defence in that squad

What kind of crazy question is that?

DM_7

duffman13 wrote: »

Madrid played that way with Bale and Ronaldo wide of Benzema. Bayern with Ribery and Robben wide of Mandzukic. Neither team had a specfic attacking midfielder ala Mata.

Plus if we got a flat back four there is only so much of an impact the fullbacks can have attacking if we are playing narrow. They are the only width in the team, most good attacking full backs are good because they offer support on the overlap. The narrow system basically requires your full back to be able to beat a man. Rafael and Shaw are quality full backs but wingers they are not.

They did have attacking midfielders, Di Maria for Real and Kroos or Mueller for Bayern.

I am not for a moment suggesting full backs are going to provide all the width all on their own, players from the attack will move out there. Di Maria did it all the time down the left for Madrid for example. He can do it for United. One of Mata, Rooney, RVP can go out wide as well. Herrera can move forward and get wide. Lots of options.

duffman13

kryogen wrote: »

Raf is more then capable of beating a man, I am sure Shaw is well able also with his pace alone

Valencia can't beat them with pace alone. But seriously Rafaels good attacking play came playing outside Nani or Valencia and going by a player on the outside. His effectiveness will be reduced greatly in a narrow system and his defensive duties will increase.

Manutd_4life

kryogen wrote: »

What kind of crazy question is that?

Only the craziest question of all time

Kirby

redbaron_99 wrote: »

I wouldn't be surprised if we see the likes of Rojo, blind, Di Maria, Herrera, jones and de gae lifting the CL trophy in the future.

Yeah that wouldn't surprise me either. The question is, which clubs will they be lifting them with?

DM_7

twam2008 wrote: »

It was slightly tongue and cheek and aimed at some who felt Schneiderlin wasn't up to our high standards, think he would have offered something against Burnley today, just watched him being interviewed after today's game, and he clearly wants out.

I think he is the stand out midfielder within the Premier League not playing for one of the top sides. Better than a number of players playing for those clubs

Adamocovic

I think the biggest issue at the moment is the players aren't used to attacking with this formation. In years passed we've relied on quick attacks down the wings, now with a slower build up I think it gets to the point where teams have players back and shut out most space to thread the ball through.

Di Maria helped today because of his vision, if he keeps trying those passes no doubt he will get some assists. Hopefully once players get used to it our attacks will have a bit more venom. It seems most of our possession has no direction or purpose at times.

Really want to see the wing backs attacking down the side more and making better runs. I think Shaw would be a good fit for this and hopefully Rafael too.

Once the players get used to this formation and our attacks start becoming more dangerous we should start doing well. In the last three games there have been very few dangerous attacks that have forced saves,all the talk about the defence but I think what we do in possession is our biggest concern at the moment.

TheTownie

DM-ICE wrote: »

But its not narrow if the full backs are getting forward like they should and United are controlling possession in most games, like they should. Its the type of play that is designed to maxise the opportunities for forwards to move around into space instead of encouraging players to play in straight lines.

It will still allow players to get wide but if Van Gaal wants good quick interplay between likes of Di Maria, Mata, Rooney, RVP and Januzaj they need to be close to each other. United need to get speed of ball movement into the game. Madrid are exciting playing this way, Bayern were the season before last.

Real and Bayern have players who start literally on the touch line and drift in with either the ball at the feet or running onto a through ball or getting on the end of a cross. Players with pace and great dribbling ability. Both teams have great counter attacking ability.

The wing backs/full backs, who you say will provide the width, are not going to be the furthest forward in a counter attack. If we play Mata/Rooney/RVP we greatly diminish our ability to launch a counter. You can't expect Di Maria to get from his midfield position to leading a counter. Mata/Rooney/RVP all want to be the player who lays the ball off or plays a pass to the runner/dribbler and then burst into the box. Its a waste to have all three of them on the field.

Stick Di Maria wide left. He'd be one of the first runners in a counter. We've seen Welbeck burst past players many times. Januzaj has a good bit of pace about him too. Have those guys wide and release them with good pass from Mata/Rooney/RVP or whoever starts but you can't fit them all in.

Di Maria/Welbeck/Januzaj are all good enough and intelligent enough to drift inside to create space for running full backs.

Persisting with Mata/Rooney/RVP is not going to end well.

duffman13

DM-ICE wrote: »

They did have attacking midfielders, Di Maria for Real and Kroos or Mueller for Bayern.

I am not for a moment suggesting full backs are going to provide all the width all on their own, players from the attack will move out there. Di Maria did it all the time down the left for Madrid for example. He can do it for United. One of Mata, Rooney, RVP can go out wide as well. Herrera can move forward and get wide. Lots of options.

Di Maria played on the left of a three, with Modric on the right and Khedeira/Alonso holding. They were a lot more balanced than United. Di Maria wasnt a no 10 in the hole where Mata likes to play. Mueller did play as an attacking mid your right. The fundamental difference is that both Bayern and Madrid played with one up top, we are trying to play with two and Mata in behind.

Both teams played with width and genuine wingers with one striker. The system both teams used although 433 by name, is completely different to your suggestion

DM_7

kryogen wrote: »

He submitted a request, they said no so thats about it really

I was thinking more along the lines of who would be the most sought after player last May and it turned out it wasn't him. I expected then that he would be first to go to a big side.

kryogen

DM-ICE wrote: »

I think he is the stand out midfielder within the Premier League not playing for one of the top sides. Better than a number of players playing for those clubs

I rate him quite highly myself, but I think he would cost pretty big money now given the money Southampton have taken in this season and the hard line they have taken over his future.

He may be an option next year though if he continues on his trajectory

twam2008

Our biggest problem has been midfield and defence. Players in defence not comfortable playing football and moving the ball forward, midfield weak and easily bullied off the ball, our best assets up front can't get hold of the ball, long balls being relied on, need players who arenet afraid to get stuck in. We don't have any.

redbaron_99

Kirby wrote: »

Yeah that wouldn't surprise me either. The question is, which clubs will they be lifting them with?

Not with Liverpool.

DM_7

TheTownie wrote: »

Real and Bayern have players who start literally on the touch line and drift in with either the ball at the feet or running onto a through ball or getting on the end of a cross. Players with pace and great dribbling ability. Both teams have great counter attacking ability.

The wing backs/full backs, who you say will provide the width, are not going to be the furthest forward in a counter attack. If we play Mata/Rooney/RVP we greatly diminish our ability to launch a counter. You can't expect Di Maria to get from his midfield position to leading a counter. Mata/Rooney/RVP all want to be the player who lays the ball off or plays a pass to the runner/dribbler and then burst into the box. Its a waste to have all three of them on the field.

Stick Di Maria wide left. He'd be one of the first runners in a counter. We've seen Welbeck burst past players many times. Januzaj has a good bit of pace about him too. Have those guys wide and release them with good pass from Mata/Rooney/RVP or whoever starts but you can't fit them all in.

Di Maria/Welbeck/Januzaj are all good enough and intelligent enough to drift inside to create space for running full backs.

Persisting with Mata/Rooney/RVP is not going to end well.

I was talking about the games where United are controlling possession.

Clearly when you play Man City the team will be set up differantly to utilise counter attacks. Di Maria wide left in such a game would be very dangerous and what you describe is going to be needed,

In a game at OT against QPR, or away like today you need them to be close to each other to move the ball and link up quickly. Counter Attacks are not going to break down teams that are not pushing out.

DM_7

kryogen wrote: »

I rate him quite highly myself, but I think he would cost pretty big money now given the money Southampton have taken in this season and the hard line they have taken over his future.

He may be an option next year though if he continues on his trajectory

Yeah at this stage I can't see anyone getting him either.

Adamocovic

So if we are to believe that VG will stick with the three CBs (I can't see him changing just yet, he a stubborn character ha), what way will he fit the players into it? Will we see something like?

---

De Gea

---

---

Jones---Blind---Rojo

---

Rafael

---

Shaw

---

Herrera

---

---

Mata

---

Di Maria----

---

Rooney

---

RVP

---

I'd prefer Blind in a CDM role but where would that leave Herrera? Honestly I would prefer to see:

---

De Gea

---

Rafael--Jones--Rojo--Shaw

---

Blind

---

---

Herrera--Di Maria

---

---

Mata

---

---

Rooney--RVP

---

But as I said I would be very surprised to see VG change the back three system just yet. It seems like something he has his mind set on.

TheTownie

DM-ICE wrote: »

I was talking about the games where United are controlling possession.

Clearly when you play Man City the team will be set up differantly to utilise counter attacks. Di Maria wide left in such a game would be very dangerous and what you describe is going to be needed,

In a game at OT against QPR, or away like today you need them to be close to each other to move the ball and link up quickly. Counter Attacks are not going to break down teams that are not pushing out.

Those wide players are good enough to drift inside and stay close to the front men if needs be. I wouldn't change the personnel against a team who sits back, change the tactics slightly instead. I think it imperative to have a balanced mixture of players with vision/passing ability and dribbling/pace in any situation. The likes of Di Maria/Welbeck/Januzaj all have the ability to play passes in tight spaces, 1-2s etc.

keano25

Great news at De Jong almost signing. Take him over Fletcher any day.

zarquon

zarquon wrote: »

http://www.twitter.com

Hahahaha so funny.

Adamocovic

keano25 wrote: »

Great news at De Jong almost signing. Take him over Fletcher any day.

Source?

The_Kew_Tour

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

To bayern?

I don't but he ain't going to us is he now?

You said twitter was exploding with Vidal so thought there would be some strong links.

TheTownie

Adamocovic wrote: »

Source?

Daily Star followed by twitter talk.

K4t

K4t wrote: »

If Utd buy Schneiderlinn it would equate to the combined signings of everyone else bought this summer (including Di Maria) in terms of the impact it would have on the team and style of play. He really could be the answer to all our midfield woes. Best midfielder in the league imo (Yaya, Ramsay, Fabregas best attacking mfs).

Said this a few days ago and I know it's only one game but he scored 2 goals today and an excellent game. He really is a perfect solution to our biggest problem.

The_Kew_Tour

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You said twitter was exploding with Vidal so thought there would be some strong links.

Well most seem to think him kissing the crowd is the sign

thelad95

According to the Sun tomorrow there's going to be 11 incomings and outgoings over the next 48 hours. I'm starting college this year and need to save money so instead of investing in extra toilet roll I'll just bring up these papers which my Dad insists on buying for some reason.

kryogen

Just got to watch the game properly there, very encouraged by Di Maria, he looked very good for his debut. To be honest with the chances we had with RvP (after that crackin Di Maria pass) and Mata, (from that Di Maria cross after the sexy football) and a good shout for a penalty we really should have won that game.

Teams using the blanket defence against us when we are going forward are having it too easy though and that needs to chance, saw Neville highlight it on MOTD earlier too, as we are just using wing backs with no wide player the wide midfielder of the opposition just sticks to and marks them and it allows the left back or right back to tuck in and make it even harder for us to get through teams.

I am sure this stuff will be analysed and corrected in the coming weeks, but we do need to start clicking with a couple of wins from the remaining 3 of these "handy" opening fixtures to give us a platform for the season.

Headshot

Come on Ed, go for Dejong

keano25

Adamocovic wrote: »

Source?

I have a contact at OT.

DM_7

TheTownie wrote: »

Those wide players are good enough to drift inside and stay close to the front men if needs be. I wouldn't change the personnel against a team who sits back, change the tactics slightly instead. I think it imperative to have a balanced mixture of players with vision/passing ability and dribbling/pace in any situation. The likes of Di Maria/Welbeck/Januzaj all have the ability to play passes in tight spaces, 1-2s etc.

I wouldn't be expecting much change in personnel either.

I am trying to set out what I think Van Gaal will do to utilise the players and fit his ideas.

My point at the start was that the 4-3-3 under him is not going to be the 4-5-1 we are used to seeing from United, while players like Rooney or Mata may be asked to play from a wider position and come inside they are not really getting shunted out wide. They will be coming inside to get into the box, central areas and full backs are going to burst forward to provide the real width in the side.

United old style of play would be with Players like Nani or Valencia staying wide, when Rooney played wide in the past he stayed wide.

I think Van Gaal will do something differant. I don't see him playing with wingers that we are used to and in that case I think he would start players like Mata and Rooney wide as they are generally going to be tasked with getting inside quickly and supporting van Persie rather than providing width in attack.

Peanut Butter Jelly

Possible Line-up

What do people think of that as a line up? I know Rooney is out of position but two up front isn't working and it's hopefully going to keep Young out of the team :pac:

Adamocovic

keano25 wrote: »

I have a contact at OT.

Giggsy never could stay quiet! :P

keano25

Adamocovic wrote: »

Giggsy never could stay quiet! :P

http://www.101greatgoals.com/blog/transfers/man-united-to-sign-ac-milans-nigel-de-jong-for-10m-11-players-being-axed-sunday-star/

Obviously this crowd have the same contact. Haha

TheTownie

DM-ICE wrote: »

I wouldn't be expecting much change in personnel either.

I am trying to set out what I think Van Gaal will do to utilise the players and fit his ideas.

My point at the start was that the 4-3-3 under him is not going to be the 4-5-1 we are used to seeing from United, while players like Rooney or Mata may be asked to play from a wider position and come inside they are not really getting shunted out wide. They will be coming inside to get into the box, central areas and full backs are going to burst forward to provide the real width in the side.

United old style of play would be with Players like Nani or Valencia staying wide, when Rooney played wide in the past he stayed wide.

I think Van Gaal will do something differant. I don't see him playing with wingers that we are used to and in that case I think he would start players like Mata and Rooney wide as they are generally going to be tasked with getting inside quickly and supporting van Persie rather than providing width in attack.

Fair enough. I hope LVG doesn't persist with them. We have modern wingers who can drift inside and link up play yet still make runs in behind defenses. Mata/Rooney drifting inside is a very different prospect and an easier one to defend against.

The_Kew_Tour

De jong?

Oh dear..

Not what we need

Next..

Bleating Lamb

As bad as things ever were last year with Moyes I can't recall MOTD lads doubting his formations too often,Lineker ended the show tonight with an open ended ?.......'how long will Utd persist with the 352?'
Tis the million Dollar ? LVG.
Don't think we have the players for it
On the plus side Di Maria looked bright and brought pace to moves,can see Mata being dropped if he doesn't get finger out,holds up play too much..

pablo128

Peanut Butter Jelly wrote: »

Possible Line-up

What do people think of that as a line up? I know Rooney is out of position but two up front isn't working and it's hopefully going to keep Young out of the team :pac:

Swap Rooney with Mata and you're there.

Headshot

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

De jong?

Oh dear..

Not what we need

Next..

Im not sure what your on about he's exactly what we need.

keano25

Bleating Lamb wrote: »

As bad as things ever were last year with Moyes I can't recall MOTD lads doubting his formations too often,Kineker ended the show tonight with an open ended ?.......'how long will Utd persist with the 352?'
Tis the million Dollar ? LVG.
Don't think we have the players for it
On the plus side Di Maria looked bright and brought pace to moves,can see Mata being dropped if he doesn't get finger out,holds up play too much..

Don't mention Moyes. I made that mistake earlier on here and nearly started a riot.

DM_7

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

De jong?

Oh dear..

Not what we need

Next..

Why would you class him as not what is needed?

The_Kew_Tour

Get a top class player or don't bother.

De Jong ain't going to dramatically improve the CM position.

We need someone who will.

MisterAnarchy

Headshot wrote: »

Im not sure what your on about he's exactly what we need.

But Blind can play the deep lying midfielder role well ,he is good on and off the ball so De Jong isnt really needed.

Headshot

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

But Blind can play the deep lying midfielder role well ,he is good on and off the ball so De Jong isnt really needed.

Blind is a utility player and in a few positions. DeJong is a better DM than Blind

Rayne Wooney

Mata hasn't been great but Rooney and RVP are major contributions to that, when you have a player who's main attribute is playing a through ball two parties need to do their job to make it work.

He had 97% passing accuracy today

keano25

So Blind is the answer to midfield?

LVG has purchased him as a defender first and foremost, has he not?

The_Kew_Tour

I will say it again.

Either get a top class CM or one with potential or don't bother at all.

Adamocovic

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Get a top class player or don't bother.

De Jong ain't going to dramatically improve the CM position.

We need someone who will.

Well we have Herrera and Blind available now to play CM, blind can play CDM. De Jong no doubt would be an improvement to the situation.

The only problem I see is how to fit in all the players if we bring in De Jong given the current formation style. Good problem to have though.

Paul Tergat

Id be happy with De Jong simply cause it would be getting another body in.

We'd be settling on this one imo

MisterAnarchy

Headshot wrote: »

Blind is a utility player and in a few positions. DeJong is a better DM than Blind

Blind can play like a central midfielder but fall back also as a third centre back ,that is the role I expect him to play at Utd when Van Gaal sees sense and reverts to a flat back four.

DM_7

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

I will say it again.

Either get a top class CM or one with potential or don't bother at all.

Can't get Strootman so stick with Anderson.

Don't think so Kew.

The Sparrow

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

I will say it again.

Either get a top class CM or one with potential or don't bother at all.

De Jong is a better DM than all of our players. He may not be as sexy a signing as Di Maria or Vidal but there is no question (imo) that he would improve our midfield. And he will be relatively cheap too.

Sign him up, Mr. Woodward.