Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Note in OP, 25/08

bangkok

homerjay2005 wrote: »

not one world class player out of the list you gave, compared to a heap of them 20 years ago. every other club in England could bring out a list of their academy players longer than than for players.

Pogba and Rossi were signed into the club and left quickly - our input on them while of course could have been huge, may have been replicated and/or better at any other club.

we tend to buy players rather than develop them.

you are forgetting the size of our club to be honest.

I only named ones I could remember quickly, how many players from the Chelsea or man city youth system have mad3e the first team? even the "famed" arsenal youth system how many of them players made the grade. where are all the real Madrid players breaking through or the Barcelona players?

TheDoc

MagicIRL wrote: »

Did someone say... Berbasex?

Someone said we bought him to spite City?

Not having that. Firmly believe it was an epic Fergie fail. Bought Berbatov assuming he could play behind Rooney, and that Rooney could be pushed up top into his best position.

Ferguson didn't realise Berbatov was lethal as the leading striker, and would struggle playing in behind. Something he later admitted as a mistake, but was pleasently suprised to see what he could do when playing up as the forward striker.

However he wanted to move to a more pacey attacking front line, which left Berbatov in the lurch. I also hold Ferguson to the fact he never did create this pacey attacking front line : /

Such a disappointing departure. Every so often I wonder what would happen with interchanges between Kagawa, Mata and Berbatov.

beno619

bangkok wrote: »

I only named ones I could remember quickly, how many players from the Chelsea or man city youth system have mad3e the first team? even the "famed" arsenal youth system how many of them players made the grade. where are all the real Madrid players breaking through or the Barcelona players?

Ahh well the oil clubs shouldnt be used as a yard stick.

Madrid and Barca produce a lot of top level players not everyone makes it there but Mata for example was at Madrid.

bangkok

TheDoc wrote: »

That's my point, sure they have gone onto "play football", but surely the judging point for youth players, is if they make it into our first team and maintain the quality we expect, since they came from our youth academy.

I've put my feelings in brackets above, but it's hardly a list to somehow debunk the suggestion our youth academy has not been as stellar as some would make out.

wes brown (Injuries argueably scuppered his potential, brilliant on his day)....... 362 apperances for United

john o shea(Suffered from utility tag, never established with us as he should have) 393 apperances for united

Darren fletcher (Was a VERY slow starter, became integral to us, then condition struck. For large parts was not good enough) 331 apperances

danny welbeck( Jury still out) Jury is only out for people who cannot see who good he is and the job he does for the team, cracking player

johnny evans( Has come on nicely in the last few seasons, so injury prone)
great defender

tom cleverly( Jury has all but made its ruling) not united standard imo but still went onto play many times for england

adnan januzaj( To early to tell) one of the best young players in the world right now

fraizer Campbell( Mid table striker, was never good enough for United)

Kieran Richardson( Mid table player, never good enough)

guissippi rossi ( Scuppered by injury, never materialised into anything of note) :eek:???? NO1 Italian striker when fit!!
paul pogba( Documented)
ryan shawcross ( Mid table CB, never United quality)

then other player in the academy now that could make the breakthrough..

james Wilson
Andreas Pereira
demetri mitchell
saidy janko

Cantstandsya

bangkok wrote: »

I only named ones I could remember quickly, how many players from the Chelsea or man city youth system have mad3e the first team? even the "famed" arsenal youth system how many of them players made the grade. where are all the real Madrid players breaking through or the Barcelona players?

Really?

bangkok

beno619 wrote: »

Ahh well the oil clubs shouldnt be used as a yard stick.

Madrid and Barca produce a lot of top level players not everyone makes it there but Mata for example was at Madrid.

but was signed from Real Oviedo, what about arsenal and their "famed" youth academy!!

bangkok

Cantstandsya wrote: »

Really?

they had their class of 92 moment with xavi iniesta etc

MagicIRL

:eek:

TheDoc

bangkok wrote: »

I only named ones I could remember quickly, how many players from the Chelsea or man city youth system have mad3e the first team? even the "famed" arsenal youth system how many of them players made the grade. where are all the real Madrid players breaking through or the Barcelona players?

Apart from Arsenal and BArca, none of those clubs make outragous claims to have elite youth academies. City are making HEAVY investment in that area, and AIM to have a great academy, but there make no outlandish claims about it being incredible.

The City board want to move to a more sustained model, and are pumping massive money into youth developement and facilities, and there is every possability it will become first class.

Chelsea are beginning to do the same, as they want to move again to a more sustainable model. Chelsea have hoovered up a lot of young, very exciting talents, and farmed them out to clubs season after season rather then coach them inhouse. There are a lot of exciting Chelsea prospects operating around Europe. However they are trying to improve their infrastructure in order to nurture their talent, rather then hoping for magic to happen out on loan.

Real Madrid is no great secret. They farm all the best Spanish talent, and either you become incredible and force your way through, or you make a good career in La Liga afterwards. There are more famous talents in Spain who were former Madrid youth academy players, then those that actually broke through to the first team. But I believe Jesse and Morata both broke through, and are both exciting striker prospects for Spain for the years to come.

Barca had a golden generation like most big clubs have. A rake of young players coming through just at the right time, clicking with the right purchase and the right veterans. But they have a famed youth academy for good reason. While not all break through to become superstars, plenty of them go on to have exciting careers, not just filling up the lower echelons of Spain.

Arsenal are still churning out some class. While they occasionally "buy" an exciting prospect, they have a good academy that teaches that youngster how to operate in an Arsenal team. Unlike Chelsea, who farm players back out, Arsenal keep them and coach them. Walcott and Ox are obvious examples of players they bought and nurtured to integrate into the first team. Kieran Gibbs is being really unlucky with injuries but with a clean run is as good a fullback in the league. Jenkins was showing promise but obviously now has moved on. then you obviously have Wilshere, and Ramsey who Arsenal have nurtured also.

The point being SAf and Gill made loud noises about how the club was solid as a ****ing rock with our youth system, but it's failed to produce first team ready quality, for a long, long time.

RichFTW

homerjay2005 wrote: »

wow....really sums up our transfer policy and certainly makes those blaming the Glazers look wide of the mark.

our wage bill is crazy also for the quality of players we have.

No it doesn't. Only Arsenal have spent less on transfers in the past 10 years from the top 5 PL clubs. I'm using 10 years as that is when the Glazers bought the club. Even Liverpool have spent more.

Seeing as you ignored these figures last time you brought up the same argument, I thought I would refresh your memory with more of a detailed breakdown. All figures taken from transferleague.co.uk.

I used 10 years as the sample but you see the breakdown for 5 years as well. Makes more sense than picking 3-4 years.

You keep using the net figures while ignoring the transfers in figures for some reason. Clubs like Arsenal & Liverpool end up having to sell their best players once a bigger club comes knocking, which usually isn't the case for United. Players who leave United are usually finished or of no use/value, hence why the Arsenal & Liverpool net figures are lower than Uniteds. Chelsea & City get better returns on players as they get bored with players frequently and end up buying a new squad but the old group of players still have value.

Summary - 5 years
Players Purchased (£) Players Sold (£) Net Total (£)
Man Utd 266,800,000.00 49,600,000.00 217,200,000.00
Man City 439,450,000.00 129,900,000.00 309,550,000.00
Chelsea 473,759,000.00 187,400,000.00 286,359,000.00
Arsenal 228,525,000.00 156,300,000.00 72,225,000.00
Liverpool 323,950,000.00 222,150,000.00 101,800,000.00



Summary - 10 years
Players Purchased (£) Players Sold (£) Net Total (£)
Man Utd 423,400,000.00 205,300,000.00 218,100,000.00
Man City 750,120,000.00 203,200,000.00 546,920,000.00
Chelsea 685,859,000.00 298,000,000.00 387,859,000.00
Arsenal 336,075,000.00 295,220,000.00 40,855,000.00
Liverpool 531,880,000.00 351,330,000.00 180,550,000.00



Breakdown here:

Man Utd
Players Purchased (£) Players Sold (£) Net Total (£)
Season 14/15 56,000,000.00 8,300,000.00 47,700,000.00
Season 13/14 67,700,000.00 1,000,000.00 66,700,000.00
Season 12/13 63,000,000.00 11,900,000.00 51,100,000.00
Season 11/12 52,900,000.00 14,750,000.00 38,150,000.00
Season 10/11 27,200,000.00 13,650,000.00 13,550,000.00
Season 09/10 21,000,000.00 85,500,000.00 -64,500,000.00
Season 08/09 35,750,000.00 2,000,000.00 33,750,000.00
Season 07/08 61,750,000.00 35,200,000.00 26,550,000.00
Season 06/07 18,600,000.00 14,500,000.00 4,100,000.00
Season 05/06 19,500,000.00 18,500,000.00 1,000,000.00
423,400,000.00 205,300,000.00 218,100,000.00


Man City
Players Purchased (£) Players Sold (£) Net Total (£)
Season 14/15 51,500,000.00 10,000,000.00 41,500,000.00
Season 13/14 103,200,000.00 13,400,000.00 89,800,000.00
Season 12/13 54,000,000.00 40,000,000.00 14,000,000.00
Season 11/12 76,000,000.00 27,750,000.00 48,250,000.00
Season 10/11 154,750,000.00 38,750,000.00 116,000,000.00
Season 09/10 125,000,000.00 26,000,000.00 99,000,000.00
Season 08/09 127,700,000.00 14,800,000.00 112,900,000.00
Season 07/08 45,820,000.00 6,700,000.00 39,120,000.00
Season 06/07 2,400,000.00 4,800,000.00 -2,400,000.00
Season 05/06 9,750,000.00 21,000,000.00 -11,250,000.00
750,120,000.00 203,200,000.00 546,920,000.00


Chelsea
Players Purchased (£) Players Sold (£) Net Total (£)
Season 14/15 85,000,000.00 74,200,000.00 10,800,000.00
Season 13/14 109,659,000.00 56,600,000.00 53,059,000.00
Season 12/13 92,000,000.00 20,000,000.00 72,000,000.00
Season 11/12 87,800,000.00 24,600,000.00 63,200,000.00
Season 10/11 99,300,000.00 12,000,000.00 87,300,000.00
Season 09/10 23,500,000.00 6,000,000.00 17,500,000.00
Season 08/09 24,200,000.00 35,000,000.00 -10,800,000.00
Season 07/08 40,500,000.00 33,000,000.00 7,500,000.00
Season 06/07 12,000,000.00 15,800,000.00 -3,800,000.00
Season 05/06 111,900,000.00 20,800,000.00 91,100,000.00
685,859,000.00 298,000,000.00 387,859,000.00


Arsenal
Players Purchased (£) Players Sold (£) Net Total (£)
Season 14/15 66,000,000.00 24,200,000.00 41,800,000.00
Season 13/14 42,500,000.00 10,000,000.00 32,500,000.00
Season 12/13 52,300,000.00 43,700,000.00 8,600,000.00
Season 11/12 53,225,000.00 70,700,000.00 -17,475,000.00
Season 10/11 14,500,000.00 7,700,000.00 6,800,000.00
Season 09/10 10,000,000.00 41,000,000.00 -31,000,000.00
Season 08/09 15,750,000.00 19,300,000.00 -3,550,000.00
Season 07/08 31,000,000.00 17,600,000.00 13,400,000.00
Season 06/07 13,900,000.00 30,900,000.00 -17,000,000.00
Season 05/06 36,900,000.00 30,120,000.00 6,780,000.00
336,075,000.00 295,220,000.00 40,855,000.00


Liverpool
Players Purchased (£) Players Sold (£) Net Total (£)
Season 14/15 89,000,000.00 79,000,000.00 10,000,000.00
Season 13/14 48,800,000.00 28,500,000.00 20,300,000.00
Season 12/13 49,300,000.00 8,000,000.00 41,300,000.00
Season 11/12 56,400,000.00 21,050,000.00 35,350,000.00
Season 10/11 80,450,000.00 85,600,000.00 -5,150,000.00
Season 09/10 36,000,000.00 44,650,000.00 -8,650,000.00
Season 08/09 39,000,000.00 32,750,000.00 6,250,000.00
Season 07/08 69,750,000.00 29,900,000.00 39,850,000.00
Season 06/07 28,040,000.00 12,380,000.00 15,660,000.00
Season 05/06 35,140,000.00 9,500,000.00 25,640,000.00
531,880,000.00 351,330,000.00 180,550,000.00

bangkok

current Barcelona team

---

Bravo 15m

---

alves 32m pique 7m Mathieu 20m alba 14m


Rakitić 20m Busquests iniesta


suarez 75m messi neymar 80m

RayCun

bangkok wrote: »

I only named ones I could remember quickly, how many players from the Chelsea or man city youth system have mad3e the first team? even the "famed" arsenal youth system how many of them players made the grade. where are all the real Madrid players breaking through or the Barcelona players?

skipping over the Barcelona bit :eek:

Very few players are good enough to go straight from a youth academy into a team that is competing for the league. Saying that a lot of academy graduates are 'only' good enough for a mid-table side is saying that they are pretty good players, all things considered. If you can get one player every couple of years breaking through from the academy, and a bunch more players that you can sell off for a decent price, you're doing well.

bangkok

TheDoc wrote: »

Apart from Arsenal and BArca, none of those clubs make outragous claims to have elite youth academies. City are making HEAVY investment in that area, and AIM to have a great academy, but there make no outlandish claims about it being incredible.

The City board want to move to a more sustained model, and are pumping massive money into youth developement and facilities, and there is every possability it will become first class.

Chelsea are beginning to do the same, as they want to move again to a more sustainable model. Chelsea have hoovered up a lot of young, very exciting talents, and farmed them out to clubs season after season rather then coach them inhouse. There are a lot of exciting Chelsea prospects operating around Europe. However they are trying to improve their infrastructure in order to nurture their talent, rather then hoping for magic to happen out on loan.

Real Madrid is no great secret. They farm all the best Spanish talent, and either you become incredible and force your way through, or you make a good career in La Liga afterwards. There are more famous talents in Spain who were former Madrid youth academy players, then those that actually broke through to the first team. But I believe Jesse and Morata both broke through, and are both exciting striker prospects for Spain for the years to come.

Barca had a golden generation like most big clubs have. A rake of young players coming through just at the right time, clicking with the right purchase and the right veterans. But they have a famed youth academy for good reason. While not all break through to become superstars, plenty of them go on to have exciting careers, not just filling up the lower echelons of Spain.

Arsenal are still churning out some class. While they occasionally "buy" an exciting prospect, they have a good academy that teaches that youngster how to operate in an Arsenal team. Unlike Chelsea, who farm players back out, Arsenal keep them and coach them. Walcott and Ox are obvious examples of players they bought and nurtured to integrate into the first team. Kieran Gibbs is being really unlucky with injuries but with a clean run is as good a fullback in the league. Jenkins was showing promise but obviously now has moved on. then you obviously have Wilshere, and Ramsey who Arsenal have nurtured also.

The point being SAf and Gill made loud noises about how the club was solid as a ****ing rock with our youth system, but it's failed to produce first team ready quality, for a long, long time.

Walcott, ox and ramsey were all signed for big money!!

DANNY WELBECK? you really need to get to old Trafford and see how good he actually is...loved in manchester

Coat22

beno619 wrote: »

Yes Fergie should have left the perfect squad the new manager would never need to have made any additions, can you give me an example of when this has ever happened in top level football ? :rolleyes:

Last seasons priorities were a LB and CM this didnt get addressed so now we require even more because players have left, lose of form ect.

I don’t think anyone is saying that.

If Ferguson had done his job properly the CM and Winger issues would have been sorted before he left. There would also have been at least 1 serious option to take over from Ferdindand and Vidic.

IF Ferguson had done his job properly then a LB and CB might have been all Moyes needed to sign. We could then start to look at other areas of the team where we could differentiate ourselves, maybe add something new to the attack.

As it is the squad that Ferguson left was a hospital pass that Moyes/Woodward and now VG have to fix and that just to get us back up to a CL standard never mind PL contenders.

TheDoc

bangkok wrote: »

Walcott, ox and ramsey were all signed for big money!!

Yup. At a good developing age. The point I was making was that Arsenal have the experience and quality to take these players, and integrate them into their first team and prepare them for how the team plays.

Look at the players we have bought in as "prospects". Recent memory is Nick Powell, completely out in the lurch, did well for Wigan but was playing as a striker. Where is his integration into our first team. He is with us now like three years..... There is a few more, with pretty much none of them making the grade.

Ramsey, Walcott and Ox were all making first team appearances relatively quickly after being purchased and nurtured. And lets not forget Fabregas.

RayCun

Also youth academies in England used to have rules based on how far away they could take a kid from, and in practice are still going to have hinterlands limited by the presence of other clubs. The London clubs are all in each others pockets but Southampton have no competition. In Spain Barcelona and Madrid are on a different level to everyone else in terms of attracting young talent.

adox

IMO the squad left behind was certainly strong enough to challenge for the league. Sure the midfield needed improving and a replacement for Evra was needed but the squad was still good enough to compete for the league.

Top 4 wS a reasonable and conservative expectation last season as a transition period with a new manager a CEO.

The appointment of Moyes was disasterous. His time in charge at the club did huge damage, not all directly his fault, but still it stopped at his door. He should have been removed in January at the very latest. The longer he was left there the more the rot set in.

Also so many players leaving at the one time, especially defenders has left the squad hugely exposed and undermanned.

I think it's lazy and mising the point to try and blame Fergie and Gill for the state the squad was left in. To say that the only reason Utd won the league was because everyone else was crap. It was the tenure of Moyes that is to blame for the turmoil and downturn at the club. The players have to take some responsibility too as it was obvious they stopped playing for him pretty early on.

Also the shambles of last summers transfer fiasco probably helped set the tone of uncertainty and chaos around the club.

Leaving Moyes at the helm for so long when it was obvious there was only one outcome did a huge amount of damage to the club and made the job of getting it back on track even harder.

From January on was torturous as a supporter, waiting and waiting for him to be removed.

Yer Aul One

Somebody needs to show this video to LvG and Ed.
Spoiler Alert it is a very teasing video of Vidal:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOQuuuXVmjs

MagicIRL

Yer Aul One wrote: »

Somebody needs to show this video to LvG and Ed.
Spoiler Alert it is a very teasing video of Vidal:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOQuuuXVmjs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOQuuuXVmjs

bangkok

RayCun wrote: »

Also youth academies in England used to have rules based on how far away they could take a kid from, and in practice are still going to have hinterlands limited by the presence of other clubs. The London clubs are all in each others pockets but Southampton have no competition. In Spain Barcelona and Madrid are on a different level to everyone else in terms of attracting young talent.

the 90m rule is enforced now meaning it will be a lot harder for clubs to produce better talent

redbaron_99

adox wrote: »

IMO the squad left behind was certainly strong enough to challenge for the league.

It wasn't. The defence and midfield and overall style of play was falling away for a few years. Fergie kept the team winning, but the quality of play was awful at times, and RVP bailed us out of so many games in Fergie's last season.

Last season we went in with some aging defenders, some inexperienced defenders, some injury prone defenders. A shambles of a midfield and crap wingers.

It was in the post for a long time. It arrived last season. Blaming Moyes is the easy way for a lot of fans to get their heads around it all.

bangkok

MagicIRL wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOQuuuXVmjs

I hate them youtube videos of players, they can make anybody look class

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPW0scgQF6A

homerjay2005

RichFTW wrote: »

No it doesn't. Only Arsenal have spent less on transfers in the past 10 years from the top 5 PL clubs. I'm using 10 years as that is when the Glazers bought the club. Even Liverpool have spent more.

Seeing as you ignored these figures last time you brought up the same argument, I thought I would refresh your memory with more of a detailed breakdown. All figures taken from transferleague.co.uk.

I used 10 years as the sample but you see the breakdown for 5 years as well. Makes more sense than picking 3-4 years.

[/TABLE]

what has 10 years got to do with our current squad?

in that early 10 year period -

we signed and sold the best player in the world for a profit of £72million.

we signed some of what went on to become the best players in the world in their positions, for pittance (Vidic and Evra)

we already had Rooney and Rio when the glazers came in - two players who were about to enter the peak of their careers.

we got a world class keeper for £2million.

We got Tevez on "loan" for 2 years.

we still had 4 or 5 of our youth set up, who formed the basis of the team that won the CL in 2008 (scholes, giggs, brown, O Shea etc etc)

the basis of a world class team was there before the Glazers took over, we added Carrick, hargreaves, nani, anderson and Tevez to it and won 3 titles in a row and became European champions.

using figures of 10 years is nothing but bittness towards the Glazers. our team was set up to dominate the English game for 5 years and thats what it did. other teams had to spend big to catch up and they did.

since 2011 we had the chance to keep ahead of them with proper investment and we have, despite spending the highest money in the clubs history, failed in our recruiting policy.

quoting figures from 2004 is not relevent to our current plight. likewise using figures from 2009-2011 for city is not relevant as up to then (2011), despite the millions they spenT, we were still ahead of them (11 points 2 years ago wasnt it).

the problem is that in the last 4 years, weve spend but f*cked it up while our rivals have outlayed less money, but moved 2 or 3 levels ahead of us.

Coat22

Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »

This article made me irrationally angry

http://www.espnfc.com/blog/espn-fc-united-blog/68/post/1991460/manchester-uniteds-transfer-window-travails-under-louis-van-gaal-and-ed-woodward

Was this just published today? Surprised it hasn't provoked a lot more debate - his point about united missing out on a player because of a difference of 2M on valuation is exactly what I thought was going on there now with Woodward negoatiating transfers - he's doing the business with his accountant hat on rather than a CEO who sometimes needs to realise you sometimes have to bite the bullet.

MisterAnarchy

beno619 wrote: »

Yes Fergie should have left the perfect squad the new manager would never need to have made any additions, can you give me an example of when this has ever happened in top level football ? :rolleyes:

Well I recall having an argument with a good few posters on here who were adamant that the squad left by Fergie was the strongest Utd squad of all time !
They were having none of my belief that it was the worst Utd team in over 15 years

Rubber_Soul

RayCun wrote: »

Also youth academies in England used to have rules based on how far away they could take a kid from, and in practice are still going to have hinterlands limited by the presence of other clubs. The London clubs are all in each others pockets but Southampton have no competition. In Spain Barcelona and Madrid are on a different level to everyone else in terms of attracting young talent.

This needs to be stressed. The 90 minute rule is something Fergie argued against for years as it really hampered the level of developing players the club could get, time restrictions (3760 hours coaching by the age of 21 vs 10,000 by the same age now) on training further compounded the problem.

Aside from Real and Barca being able to hoover up the best talent all over Spain, their grassroots development is lightyears ahead of the English. Number of Pro Licence coaches in Spain: 2140, mostly coaching kids. Number of Pro Licence coaches in the U.K: 203, all coaching at semi- pro level and up. By the time their kids get into their academies they're already way ahead of British kids technically.

adox

redbaron_99 wrote: »

It wasn't. The defence and midfield and overall style of play was falling away for a few years. Fergie kept the team winning, but the quality of play was awful at times, and RVP bailed us out of so many games in Fergie's last season.

Last season we went in with some aging defenders, some inexperienced defenders, some injury prone defenders. A shambles of a midfield and crap wingers.

It was in the post for a long time. It arrived last season. Blaming Moyes is the easy way for a lot of fans to get their heads around it all.

We will have to agree to disagree.

Yer Aul One

bangkok wrote: »

I hate them youtube videos of players, they can make anybody look class

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPW0scgQF6A

Fair point.

Anderson's before he came to United had him doing flips flops and scoring crackers. Should have had him eating burgers with brazzers

Rubber_Soul

bangkok wrote: »

the 90m rule is enforced now meaning it will be a lot harder for clubs to produce better talent

It was abolished in 2011

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_Player_Performance_Plan

RayCun

homerjay2005 wrote: »

what has 10 years got to do with our current squad?

He also produced figures for the last 5 years, where both City and Chelsea have spent more than 200 million more than United on players

Pro. F

beno619 wrote: »

Ahh well the oil clubs shouldnt be used as a yard stick.

Madrid and Barca produce a lot of top level players not everyone makes it there but Mata for example was at Madrid.

Real brought Mata in when he was 15 so that doesn't count. Januzaj, Pogba, Rossi and Evans wouldn't count for United either.

Without having detailed information about the numbers and success of graduates over a decent period of time for all teams, then it's impossible to say who has the best academy.

twam2008

Coat22 wrote: »

Was this just published today? Surprised it hasn't provoked a lot more debate - his point about united missing out on a player because of a difference of 2M on valuation is exactly what I thought was going on there now with Woodward negoatiating transfers - he's doing the business with his accountant hat on rather than a CEO who sometimes needs to realise you sometimes have to bite the bullet.

It was put up last night, and the debate currently on is part of that post

LostBoy101

La Masia foundation was set up by LVG and Pep just followed it through. I'm looking forward to see what LVG can make our academy in 3 years.

kippy

homerjay2005 wrote: »

what has 10 years got to do with our current squad?

in that early 10 year period -

we signed and sold the best player in the world for a profit of £72million.

we signed some of what went on to become the best players in the world in their positions, for pittance (Vidic and Evra)

we already had Rooney and Rio when the glazers came in - two players who were about to enter the peak of their careers.

we got a world class keeper for £2million.

We got Tevez on "loan" for 2 years.

we still had 4 or 5 of our youth set up, who formed the basis of the team that won the CL in 2008 (scholes, giggs, brown, O Shea etc etc)

the basis of a world class team was there before the Glazers took over, we added Carrick, hargreaves, nani, anderson and Tevez to it and won 3 titles in a row and became European champions.

using figures of 10 years is nothing but bittness towards the Glazers. our team was set up to dominate the English game for 5 years and thats what it did. other teams had to spend big to catch up and they did.

since 2011 we had the chance to keep ahead of them with proper investment and we have, despite spending the highest money in the clubs history, failed in our recruiting policy.

quoting figures from 2004 is not relevent to our current plight. likewise using figures from 2009-2011 for city is not relevant as up to then (2011), despite the millions they spenT, we were still ahead of them (11 points 2 years ago wasnt it).

the problem is that in the last 4 years, weve spend but f*cked it up while our rivals have outlayed less money, but moved 2 or 3 levels ahead of us.

In the past 5 years (since 09) United have been outspent by City, Chelsea, and most likely Liverpool and Spurs at this point.
The players United bought cheaply in that time (generally young ones) haven't worked out as well as was hoped and some key areas were neglected. This blames, Fergie, Gill, Woodward, Moyes and the Glaziers, not matter how you want to spell it out.

And mentioning spending the highest amount in the clubs history is just the times we are in.
Do you expect the club to spend less next year than it did in 1999 or any other year for example.
Other clubs are spending way more than they ever did also. Thats what's happened with the money in the game and the competition for talent.

The money is apparantly there at United but as I've already posted that's not much use to the fans - all the fans mind, not just the match going ones (the reason the money is there in the first place is because of the fans - all of them and mostly the ones who never make it to a match or do so on a rare occasion).
There has been a very obvious transfer policy the past number of years and it hasnt worked out for the club.

Heres a list of ins and outs (the ins are the important ones reall in this context) and associated costings:
http://transferleague.co.uk/

Danye

Enough of all this taking about figures. The main thing is have we signed anbody yet or are we even near to signing somebody?

Rubber_Soul

LostBoy101 wrote: »

La Masia foundation was set up by LVG and Pep just followed it through. I'm looking forward to see what LVG can make our academy in 3 years.

La Masia was established by Cruyff.

TheTownie

https://twitter.com/Sport_Witness/status/501703024432402433

twam2008

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/manchester-united/11030599/Marcos-Rojo-13-things-you-might-not-know-about-Manchester-United-transfer-target.html

RobbingBandit

Seen on Eurosport because of the third party ownership of Rojo it will take a few more days for the lawyers to sort out the paper work. Will be weird having a guy named Faustino playing for the Red Devils.

RichFTW

homerjay2005 wrote: »

wow....really sums up our transfer policy and certainly makes those blaming the Glazers look wide of the mark.

our wage bill is crazy also for the quality of players we have.

homerjay2005 wrote: »

what has 10 years got to do with our current squad?

in that early 10 year period -

we signed and sold the best player in the world for a profit of £72million.

we signed some of what went on to become the best players in the world in their positions, for pittance (Vidic and Evra)

we already had Rooney and Rio when the glazers came in - two players who were about to enter the peak of their careers.

we got a world class keeper for £2million.

We got Tevez on "loan" for 2 years.

we still had 4 or 5 of our youth set up, who formed the basis of the team that won the CL in 2008 (scholes, giggs, brown, O Shea etc etc)

the basis of a world class team was there before the Glazers took over, we added Carrick, hargreaves, nani, anderson and Tevez to it and won 3 titles in a row and became European champions.

using figures of 10 years is nothing but bittness towards the Glazers. our team was set up to dominate the English game for 5 years and thats what it did. other teams had to spend big to catch up and they did.

since 2011 we had the chance to keep ahead of them with proper investment and we have, despite spending the highest money in the clubs history, failed in our recruiting policy.

quoting figures from 2004 is not relevent to our current plight. likewise using figures from 2009-2011 for city is not relevant as up to then (2011), despite the millions they spenT, we were still ahead of them (11 points 2 years ago wasnt it).

the problem is that in the last 4 years, weve spend but f*cked it up while our rivals have outlayed less money, but moved 2 or 3 levels ahead of us.

You didn't mention anything about the current squad when you used the screenshot showing net spend to show the Glazers have spent as much as the big clubs. Which they haven't even if you look at the 5 year summary. Transfers in shows the investment made, not net spend.

I used 10 years as the Glazers took over the club 10 years ago. Which I did as you brought up the Glazers in the first place.

You're right that we haven't bought as well as the other clubs but they have spent more than us. They do however take more punts and so look like they have a better track record when in fact they just buy a number of players in the hope that one or two will be a success.

Mikeyt086

Yer Aul One wrote: »

Fair point.

Anderson's before he came to United had him doing flips flops and scoring crackers. Should have had him eating burgers with brazzers

Anderson before he came to United did do flip-laps and scored crackers playing as an attacking midfielder, it's not like the video lied.

redbaron_99

If Nani goes to Sporting, and the Rojo deal falls through, there will be a meltdown of epic proportions.

Pro. F

RayCun wrote: »

He also produced figures for the last 5 years, where both City and Chelsea have spent more than 200 million more than United on players

And a yearly breakdown for all the teams too. The argument is now proven for everybody except Homer - Chelsea and City have spent considerably more money in building their squads than United have. Edit: And this is what should be expected, since they aren't being run as a business.

Of course, that doesn't mean that we have spent our money as well as we could have. It just shows that the wastage hasn't been as bad as a few people were portraying it.

kryogen

Mikeyt086 wrote: »

Anderson before he came to United did do flip-laps and scored crackers playing as an attacking midfielder, it's not like the video lied.

Anderson before his awful injury (which I believe he has never fully gotten over) was a cracking attacking midfielder, the highest rated in world football. His manager not using him properly, an inability to stay fit and other factors have left him where he is today which is a shame. It is time to move on though naturally

It's laughable to blame the owners tbh. As someone above said it's spoiled fans.

If they aren't providing the money by all means they should be targeted for protest but this isn't the case.

The manager can't really be blamed as hes in the job a few weeks.

Woodward is the guy that is failing at his job. He needs to be shown the door by Utd.

I'd imagine him and van gaal will be at war should the latter fail to secure any remaining targets this window.

RobbingBandit

redbaron_99 wrote: »

If Nani goes to Sporting, and the Rojo deal falls through, there will be a meltdown of epic proportions.

Nani is only going on a one year lone to sweeten the deal.

redbaron_99

RobbingBandit wrote: »

Nani is only going on a one year lone to sweeten the deal.

I know that.

RobbingBandit

redbaron_99 wrote: »

I know that.

If the deal falls through the lone will end I would imagine as it is based on the transfer taking place.

Backstreet Moyes

I would be very surprised if Nani agrees to go back to Portugal.

JaMarcusHustle

kryogen wrote: »

Anderson before his awful injury (which I believe he has never fully gotten over) was a cracking attacking midfielder, the highest rated in world football.

Ah here....