Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Note in OP, 25/08

Ed The Equalizer

bucketybuck wrote: »

Thats what it comes down to I'm afraid, "standards". Theres a guy on this very page that thinks it was a good transfer window, because of reasons like Ashley Young having a good pre-season and Felliani scoring a goal. My god, when you have to scrape the barrel like that for positives your standards really are in the toilet.

Personally I would have liked to cling to the hope that we were still a force in English football for a little while longer, as opposed to others that are happy with their mid-table squad.

The stronger the negativity that's spouted, the stronger the positivity backlash will be.

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction and all that.

adox

homerjay2005 wrote: »

the only thing that can save this window are two top world class players signed before the window closes.

we fail to hit that, the window has been a failure. i really cannot see how people believe otherwise.

I would say there is close to zero chance of two world class players being signed this window.

Mitch Connor

homerjay2005 wrote: »

the only thing that can save this window are two top world class players signed before the window closes.

we fail to hit that, the window has been a failure. i really cannot see how people believe otherwise.

because some people overrate the squad - they believe Fletcher or Cleverley can be the players we need them to be.

beno619

bucketybuck wrote: »

Thats what it comes down to I'm afraid, "standards". Theres a guy on this very page that thinks it was a good transfer window, because of reasons like Ashley Young having a good pre-season and Felliani scoring a goal. My god, when you have to scrape the barrel like that for positives your standards really are in the toilet.

Personally I would have liked to cling to the hope that we were still a force in English football for a little while longer, as opposed to others that are happy with their mid-table squad.

I agree with your general message, but I've accepted we have been set back at least 2 years because of the mess created last season.

It will take 2 summers to fix the club again I'd point to Mourinho and Pellegrini only sorting out there squads this summer.

kippy

homerjay2005 wrote: »

as it stands, its a very mediocre window in my opinion so far. i dont think you will have many fans jumping around the place this morning in celebration or many of our rivals shaking in their boots.

I have to say, I'd have to agree with that.

Herrara and Shaw were transfers from the last regime essentially, neither are proven and already the manager has said that Shaw isn't fit enough for the "new" role, that was before his injury lay off. Will take him a while to get fit after he returns so he won't be of much use for a while.
Herrara isn't a top class midfielder (yet) and the issue I have with him is that there were better "already there" midfielders available for less this summer.
Rojo - who knows how this will work out.

Vidic, Ferdinand, Evra, Giggs have left the club this season so far, Carrick is 33 Fletcher is not going to get back to his best unfortunately and Cleverly has been found out long ago.

I dont think the 3 transfers go anywhere near to fixing the squad issues unfortunately.

RayCun

homerjay2005 wrote: »

ah come on, our defence is currently riddled with injuries. going on what people were saying here yesterday, Shaw is first choice LB and is Rojo good enough to dislodge Smalling, Evans or Jones in the center?

Rafael Smalling Evans Shaw

and personally, the biggest positive from pre season is the emergence of Blackett - he looks a real prospect. Rojo can work in a back 3, which again based on what i read here, is a formation that doesnt put alot of confidence in some people. even our manager abandoned it during the WC when he was chasing games and did it again on saturday after 45 minutes.

considering the fact that we love falling behind and our current team is s*it, we will be switching to a flat back 4 on many occasions this season.

Yes, Rojo is good enough to dislodge Smalling. So a back 5 of
Raf Jones Evans Rojo Shaw
is a real improvement. Blackett looks good all right, but as people keep saying, Evans and Jones are injury prone, so he'll get his chances.

United went to a back 4 on Saturday when Lingaard was forced off! The choice was going to a back 5 of
Smalling Jones Blackett James Young
or bringing in a midfielder and going to 4 at the back, two bad options.

Getting a new defender in who can play either left CB or left back means a lot fewer games where we start with a patched-up defence

adox

MagicIRL wrote: »

You can wow all you like but it's this chasing of Vidal instead of signing Kroos or Cesc that has the team utterly ****ed in midfield.

Trying to sign any of those three would be the very opposite of not being picky.

Lord TSC

homerjay2005 wrote: »

the only thing that can save this window are two top world class players signed before the window closes.

we fail to hit that, the window has been a failure. i really cannot see how people believe otherwise.

It's as if people have different levels of expectations and, shock horror, different opinions.

I went into the window wanting the club to reset abolish it's core foundation, and we have done exactly that. We have brought in players for positions we desperately needed to fill, and am happy with the level of player we have brought in. Sure, WC players would be nice but I also saw that as an unrealistic target this summer ( and I am fairly certain you said it was unrealistic a few months back too).

This season is about top four, so next season, with CL football, lots of money from the Addidas deal and a solid core, we go after significant upgrades and top level players. I don't see it as a failure because I set out a level of expectation and it delivered.

Cookiemunster

Mitch Connor wrote: »

because some people overrate the squad - they believe Fletcher or Cleverley can be the players we need them to be.

Who? There is nobody who believes that. Cleverly is one of the most hated players at the club. Ridiculous statement.

Spazdarn

Anyone expecting World Class transfers can forget it, even a team of the likes of Barca are settling for players like Vermaelen. The players just aren't available.

That's not to say they weren't, Jose Mourinho was humming and hawing about whether to put in a bit for Cesc. Toni Kroos obviously had a much more attractive offer in the end, but I don't see why United aren't going balls out for these kind of players, you'd have had a truly world class CM pairing for under 60 million there, which is peanuts these days.

That aside, I think holes need to be plugged in the squad as both our first team and squads pale in comparison to the top 4 teams. I'd be very happy to get in Nigel de Jong, going around kicking people and roughing them up, alongside Herrera so I don't have to see Michael Carrick saunter around not quite doing anything.

Definitely still want another CB of worth, I think Smalling is shocking and Jones isn't much better. I understand they're deemed young but at 24 years of age I'd expect more from them. Whatever you say about potential they're not good enough right now to hold down a place in a team with Champions League ambitions.

Your Airbag

Did anyone watch the Spanish Super cup last night?

The game totally changed when Di Maria came on. Madrid looked more dangerous and he looked like there best player.

So much so that Simione said Di Maria is Madrids best player to which Ancelotti replied

Di Maria the best? I think Simeone has forgotten the Golden Ball winner and Bale, who scored in Lisbon.

https://twitter.com/SocialRMadrid/statuses/501872008591073280

Thats pretty disrespectful to Di Maria I feel and poor from Ancelotti to devalue his own player like that whilst talking up Ronaldo and Bale. He could have just said "yes, he is one of our best"

He went on to say

Di Maria is a Real Madrid player and I will use him as I want in the field.

https://twitter.com/SocialRMadrid/statuses/501871723948826624

Madrid fans were praising Di Maria and calling out for him to be kept after the game but it seems Ancelotti is talking up the other players because he knows Di Maria could be on the way out.

Ladyman said a couple of days ago we are preparing a 50m + wages bid, totaling 100m to get him. 200,000 a week.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2727337/Manchester-United-prepare-100m-package-lure-Real-Madrid-star-Angel-Di-Maria-Old-Trafford.html

This could get interesting

Lucas Hood

ToiletFusion wrote: »

Anyone expecting World Class transfers can forget it, even a team of the likes of Barca are settling for players like Vermaelen. The players just aren't available.

That's not to say they weren't, Jose Mourinho was humming and hawing about whether to put in a bit for Cesc. Toni Kroos obviously had a much more attractive offer in the end, but I don't see why United aren't going balls out for these kind of players, you'd have had a truly world class CM pairing for under 60 million there, which is peanuts these days.

That aside, I think holes need to be plugged in the squad as both our first team and squads pale in comparison to the top 4 teams. I'd be very happy to get in Nigel de Jong, going around kicking people and roughing them up, alongside Herrera so I don't have to see Michael Carrick saunter around not quite doing anything.

Definitely still want another CB of worth, I think Smalling is shocking and Jones isn't much better. I understand they're deemed young but at 24 years of age I'd expect more from them. Whatever you say about potential they're not good enough right now to hold down a place in a team with Champions League ambitions.

That's grand Phil Jones is only 22 he's another 2 years to improve to your required standard.

Alf Veedersane

ToiletFusion wrote: »

Anyone expecting World Class transfers can forget it, even a team of the likes of Barca are settling for players like Vermaelen. The players just aren't available.

And the ones that are are going to go to the other big clubs that want them.

Manchester United isn't a hugely attractive proposition for a genuinely world class player anymore.

bullvine

It would be madness to buy another Centerback, might as well give Jones the boot so, its time for him to be allowed prove himself as first choice.

redbaron_99

I think those fantasy line-ups that included Hummels, Vidal, Di Maria, etc. have warped a lot of minds on here. LVG has to build a team. He is not the man to chase a load of established players and try to shoehorn them into a solid team. He'll build a team, or even grow a team. I'm quite certain we'll land a young midfielder before the window shuts and that will be all. I'm quite content with that. It'll be shaky this season, but over time it will get better, and I believe in three years time we could be back at the top of european football. DeGae, Rafeal, Smalling, Jones, Rojo, Shaw, Herrera, Januzaj, New CM, Wilson, Mata are all fairly young. A few years together under LVG and they'll be a force.

kippy

Lucas Hood wrote: »

That's grand Phil Jones is only 22 he's another 2 years to improve to your required standard.

I suppose the question has to be asked are these two players (Jones and Smalling) good enough right now to get the club through the season.
Rio Ferdinand was 23 when he came to United. Slotted right in and was a great player for the club. Do you see Jones or Smalling at that level or close to it?

MD1990

Di Maria will go to PSG. Do Man Utd fans ever learn lol

Robson99

I'm all for giving Blackett, Lingard James etc a chance, but we also have to the the quality players in the team to get us into the top 4. As of now neither our first 11 nor our overall squad are good enough. So its not fantasy its reality. We need 2 or 3 top drawer players to help these younger players come through

homerjay2005

Lord TSC wrote: »

. Sure, WC players would be nice but I also saw that as an unrealistic target this summer ( and I am fairly certain you said it was unrealistic a few months back too).

why do you keep bringing this up?

I have told you, now for the 4th time what i expect the club to deliver and what the club needs to deliver are two completely different things.

expectations are low due to clubs abject failures in recent windows, it doesnt change the need or more to the point, low expectations shouldnt mean people are happy.

people thought we would spend £150m to £200m which was unrealistic. however now, it looks like we have no choice but to do that or we risk another disaster season as it stands.

i have changed my mind on one thing however - i always was on the we shouldnt waste money side of things, but now you know what, f*ck it...if we have it, spend it - as long as we buy the right players, something however we are not capable of doing at the moment.

a vidal and a di maria would change things - thats the level we are at, but unfortunately seem incapable right now of landing. it needs to change in the next 10 days, we all hope it does.

Lucas Hood

kippy wrote: »

I suppose the question has to be asked are these two players (Jones and Smalling) good enough right now to get the club through the season.
Rio Ferdinand was 23 when he came to United. Slotted right in and was a great player for the club. Do you see Jones or Smalling at that level or close to it?

At Rios level? No probably not.

I don't think Rio was that great for United at the start he made a lot of mistakes in his first few seasons.

redbaron_99

Robson99 wrote: »

I'm all for giving Blackett, Lingard James etc a chance, but we also have to the the quality players in the team to get us into the top 4. As of now neither our first 11 nor our overall squad are good enough. So its not fantasy its reality. We need 2 or 3 top drawer players to help these younger players come through

Those players will not get a chance this season anyway. Blackett is out of the picture as Evans is fit again and Rojo is in. Lingaard was only thrown in because of injuries to all our wing backs, and James won't get ahead of Rojo and Shaw soon.

Will I Amnt

I expect Di Maria to end up at PSG on loan with a commitment to buy next season to get around FFP.

redbaron_99

Lucas Hood wrote: »

At Rios level? No probably not.

I don't think Rio was that great for United at the start he made a lot of mistakes in his first few seasons.

You're right. He wasn't that great at all. He made plenty of mistakes in his first couple of years. He started to settle in properly and become world class when Vidic arrived.

People need to take our the rose tinted glasses.

bullvine

Lucas Hood wrote: »

At Rios level? No probably not.

I don't think Rio was that great for United at the start he made a lot of mistakes in his first few seasons.

Rio was definitely not great in his first few years, it wasnt till around 2005 that he really started to justify his position.

homerjay2005

Lord TSC wrote: »

This season is about top four, so next season, with CL football, lots of money from the Addidas deal and a solid core, we go after significant upgrades and top level players. I don't see it as a failure because I set out a level of expectation and it delivered.

sorry i forgot this part...answer me an honest question, no ifs, buts or maybes, just an honest yes or no answer (you can elaborate why afterwards).


do you think, as it stands that we will get top 4?

Mitch Connor

redbaron_99 wrote: »

You're right. He wasn't that great at all. He made plenty of mistakes in his first couple of years. He started to settle in properly and become world class when Vidic arrived.

People need to take our the rose tinted glasses.

He was brilliant alongside Silvestre for a time too, and Brown.

Spazdarn

Lucas Hood wrote: »

That's grand Phil Jones is only 22 he's another 2 years to improve to your required standard.

Smalling is 24.

I don't think we can afford to put all our trust in a player who may or may not come good.

redbaron_99

ToiletFusion wrote: »

Smalling is 24.

I don't think we can afford to put all our trust in a player who may or may not come good.

That's why we also have Evans, Jones, Rojo, Blackett and Keane.

redbaron_99

homerjay2005 wrote: »

sorry i forgot this part...answer me an honest question, no ifs, buts or maybes, just an honest yes or no answer (you can elaborate why afterwards).


do you think, as it stands that we will get top 4?

If we get a good young midfielder I would say yes, we can. But there can be no certainty. This is a sport. We could pick up five serious injuries to key players. The same could happen to Chelsea and their season could be wrecked.

Arsenal could have won the league last year. They got a injuries to key players all at the same time and they fell away. This isn't a video game.

MagicIRL

homerjay2005 wrote: »

sorry i forgot this part...answer me an honest question, no ifs, buts or maybes, just an honest yes or no answer (you can elaborate why afterwards).


do you think, as it stands that we will get top 4?

I don't believe you can honestly answer that after watching a single game.

Lord TSC

homerjay2005 wrote: »

sorry i forgot this part...answer me an honest question, no ifs, buts or maybes, just an honest yes or no answer (you can elaborate why afterwards).


do you think, as it stands that we will get top 4?

Yes.

I think we have a manager well capable of doing it, with a first team well capable of doing it, with a squad well capable of doing it.

That 4th might come in a battle for forth. It might come at an easy 3rd or 4th place. We might pull off an upset and win the whole thing. That, I can't say cause it will depend on the teams around us.

But the question was a simple "Will we get top 4". Based on the fact I'd say City and Chelsea are better than us squad wise, but that we're at least as good as Arsenal (if not maybe better), significantly stronger than Liverpool (and with less games to play) and Spurs, I do think we will get at least 4th place this year.

(And to relate to something Magic said when I was posting this....that's on the back of my opinion of the team underpreforming drastically last year, overpreforming the year before, how we looked in preseason but also taking on board how we looked against Swansea, the transfers we've made now, the ones we will possible make over the next two weeks and January, etc).

homerjay2005

Fellaini suspected ligament damage in ankle.

at the way things are going, we wont have any players left.

redbaron_99

homerjay2005 wrote: »

Fellaini suspected ligament damage in ankle.

at the way things are going, we wont have any players left.

What's that, 3-4 months possibly?

homerjay2005

MagicIRL wrote: »

I don't believe you can honestly answer that after watching a single game.

a single game doesnt change the fact that our first 11 is now at its poorest shape in many years. if we struggle against Swansea, we are going to struggle against the top sides. Darran Fletcher is our first choice midfielder for f*ck sake. our first choice center defenders consist of reserve england internationals and a northern ireland international. we have no wingers according to our manager and our striker has fitness and injury concerns.


two things can turn this around -

top class signings.
LVG working miracles.

however, there is only certain amount you can do with Young, Jones, Fletcher and a bunch of injuries, in your team.

bullvine

You would want to be really negative if you don't think that the current first 11 we have and the manager that we now have isn't capable of finishing at least fourth maybe third even.

DM_7

I don't think Di Maria wants to leave Madrid but Perez wants to sell him.

PSG don't want to spend the cash to pay what Real want. United have the cash but Di Maria is probably not keen in dropping from key player in Champions League Final to Key player in team that has no European football.

It's going to be another Ozil, Robben, Van Der Vaart last minute sale wherever he ends up. Money will be the key as it appears only two clubs have what Real want just PSG don't think they can spend it.

Spazdarn

bullvine wrote: »

You would want to be really negative if you don't think that the current first 11 we have and the manager that we now have isn't capable of finishing at least fourth maybe third even.

From the tits up our team looks quality, but from midfield back is terrible.

Our whole defence barring Shaw and Rojo (who haven't had to chance to prove one way or another if they're good enough) is only fit for a mid table team in the premiership.

Ashley Young's level again, a mid table team, Michael Carrick divides opinion, but he imo shouldn't be in a team challenging for champions league.

Compare our first team and even our squad against any of the top 4's teams and we come up short.

It's hard to be confident of anything especially when the only trick card we have (a good manager) can be nullified by the fact the other top 4 teams have good managers too.

ericzeking

homerjay2005 wrote: »

- as long as we buy the right players

Why do you (and others) get so upset that the club doesn't buy the players that you personnally deem to be the right players?

There are players I would like to see play for United but what's the point in getting all hot and bothered about them following my own personal opinion? Me, a nobody on a message board.....

I don't know much about Rojo and I hadn't seen much of Herrera (but he does look the part)....why not give them a chance before declaring the window a bad one, have some trust in the manager who knows more than you do.

FWIW I think we've enough to get in the top 4, plenty in fact....and next year we go again. We have plenty players, we have a few injuries at the moment too which is also clouding the issue.

Adamcp898

bullvine wrote: »

You would want to be really negative if you don't think that the current first 11 we have and the manager that we now have isn't capable of finishing at least fourth maybe third even.

Do you think there are only 3 squads in the league better than ours?

Quandary

Our injuries list just gets worse every year. LVG demanding the training ground pitches surface be updated can only be a good thing.

As usual, the CM position is the most worrying at the moment. An injury to Herrera now and we are looking at a centre mid pairing of Fletcher and Cleverley. That is a truly frightening prospect.

Signing another quality CM is crucial.

RayCun

DM-ICE wrote: »

Money will be the key as it appears only two clubs have what Real want just PSG don't think they can spend it.

Will probably end up with PSG selling someone or arranging a loan-to-buy deal

Peanut Butter Jelly

What would people think about us signing Lars Bender? I think he's a good tackler, he can pass, only 24, German international.

Ok he's not Vidal but he does a job that we have no one to do.

kippy

ericzeking wrote: »

Why do you (and others) get so upset that the club doesn't buy the players that you personnally deem to be the right players?

There are players I would like to see play for United but what's the point in getting all hot and bothered about them following my own personal opinion? Me, a nobody on a message board.....

I don't know much about Rojo and I hadn't seen much of Herrera (but he does look the part)....why not give them a chance before declaring the window a bad one, have some trust in the manager who knows more than you do.

FWIW I think we've enough to get in the top 4, plenty in fact....and next year we go again. We have plenty players, we have a few injuries at the moment too which is also clouding the issue.

The injuries now, and their effect on the results are a big issue.
United have (on paper) the best fixture list to make the most off, however these injuries and the lack of quality back up could mean the club don't make the most of the fixtures.

There are any number of clubs vying for those top 4 positions now. City and Chelsea in the top 2, and any of Liverpool, Spurs, Everton and United to make up the two other spots.

Spazdarn

Peanut Butter Jelly wrote: »

What would people think about us signing Lars Bender? I think he's a good tackler, he can pass, only 24, German international.

Ok he's not Vidal but he does a job that we have no one to do.

Pretty good player, don't think the club are all that willing to sell though

Your Airbag

ToiletFusion wrote: »

Anyone expecting World Class transfers can forget it, even a team of the likes of Barca are settling for players like Vermaelen. The players just aren't available.

That's not to say they weren't, Jose Mourinho was humming and hawing about whether to put in a bit for Cesc. Toni Kroos obviously had a much more attractive offer in the end, but I don't see why United aren't going balls out for these kind of players, you'd have had a truly world class CM pairing for under 60 million there, which is peanuts these days.

We could have had at least one if not both like you say and pretty early in the window too. A lot of ground work was done on Kroos and Cesc was in the open.

That would have been a world class siging early in the window and would have sent a good message out.

LVG apparently halted the interest on Kross and had zero interest in Fabregas. Yet we still have people slamming Woody for the lack of a world class player.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, LVG has acted strangely in this window, very strangely and he has a lot to answer for, not Woodward. Its about time people started saying it.

Coat22

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Also, it was argued we needed a left back before buttner AND evra were sold, so we ended up needing two.

We lost two centre backs, moved to playing 3 at the back - means we need 2 CBs, Rojo covers one spot, I think, but we still need a central centre back, imo.

We needed two CMs - a more creative one, and a more combative/defensive one - we have only signed a player to fill one of those needs.

We also, arguably, need a talented winger as well, which we haven't brought in.

Even if we brought in another CB and CM - we are still in a situation where we are gambling on Young or Valencia being good enough cover at RWB or RB, i'm far from convinced at this stage. Even if we signed vidal, we are an injury for him and herrea to starting two out of Carrick, Fellaini, Cleverley and Fletcher - none of them would threaten the first teams spots of the midfielders at the top 4 clubs.

It is a weak squad, of which the signings we have made have only covered some of the cracks we allowed to appear, it hasn't actually been improved by any significant factor at all.

Agree we need another CB if we’re going to play 3 at the back. Think Rojo will hopefully consign Smalling to the bench and give Jones a kick that he’s just a bad performance away from being dropped but would rather we went out and got ourselves top quality CB to lead the line. Not sure will happen in this window though.

I think we’ll sign another CM. Probably someone of a De Jong / Song stature rather than a Vidal or Reus but that would be a start also. I hear what you’re saying about being only one injury away from using the amigos that are already there but that’s a risk most clubs take. It’s a long time since we had Scholes & Keane with Butt as back up so this won’t be fixed overnight.

I think all the Di Maria / Cuadrado rubbish is just that – can’t see anything happening there. We might get someone in on a loan before the window closes and that will be our lot.

If everyone is fit then we could have a decent team (not title challengers) good enough to challenge for 4th. If we qualify for the CL then next summer we would strengthen this further and move on the Fletchers / Cleverlys / Smallings and be title challengers next season.

Will I Amnt

Peanut Butter Jelly wrote: »

What would people think about us signing Lars Bender? I think he's a good tackler, he can pass, only 24, German international.

Ok he's not Vidal but he does a job that we have no one to do.

I reckon it's going to be a signing like this, not Bender but someone maybe in and around that level, it will come out of nowhere. A perfectly acceptable and solid player, people need to be more realistic.

Mikeyt086

Peanut Butter Jelly wrote: »

What would people think about us signing Lars Bender? I think he's a good tackler, he can pass, only 24, German international.

Ok he's not Vidal but he does a job that we have no one to do.

The type of player who would slot right in to the Premier League, I'm surprised more clubs aren't after him. Arsenal have been linked for a while.

I assume that he is the type of lad who is no rush to leave Germany though.

Coat22

Will I Amnt wrote: »

I reckon it's going to be a signing like this, not Bender but someone maybe in and around that level, it will come out of nowhere. A perfectly acceptable and solid player, people need to be more realistic.

Completeley agree.

If a young Nicky Butt was available now most people on here would turn their nose up at him because he wasn't Vidal

Lucas Hood

ToiletFusion wrote: »

Pretty good player, don't think the club are all that willing to sell though

Bayer seem to sell their best players almost every year.