All Ireland SFC SF Mayo v Kerry 24/08 3.30pm RTE 2 HD, Sky Sports 3 HD

homewardbound11

homerjay2005 wrote: »

100% disagree here. he went for the shoulder and did not intend to foul the player at all.

Specs avers. Check them out and if you have them already get a retest.

Peist2007

Hammer Archer wrote: »

Unless he drags the player to the ground, it really isn't a black card. Read up on the specific black card offences. I don't know why so many people don't understand it.

I know the black card instances. I dont think a player manfully trying to stay on his feet and play should negate that he is being dragged down. I know if David Moran grabbed all 5'9 of me then i would go down and it is a black card. O'Shea is the equivalent of an oak tree but the act and the intention of Moran is the same ie to stop the break at all costs. Cynical and a black card if applied properly.

keane2097

Peist2007 wrote: »

I know the black card instances. I dont think a player manfully trying to stay on his feet and play should negate that he is being dragged down. I know if David Moran grabbed all 5'9 of me then i would go down and it is a black card. O'Shea is the equivalent of an oak tree but the act and the intention of Moran is the same ie to stop the break at all costs. Cynical and a black card if applied properly.

You wouldn't mind trying to exaggerate a bit more would you?

Peist2007

keane2097 wrote: »

You wouldn't mind trying to exaggerate a bit more would you?

It's called exaggerating to make a point :P

Stoner

Peist2007 wrote: »

I know the black card instances.

Cynical play does not mean its a black card, its pretty clear cut.

The body check is for late challenges on a player who has passed the ball and you've prevented him from get back involved in the play.

Dragging a man to the ground means you have to do it. If he's too big and you can't then its not a black card.

Peist2007

Stoner wrote: »

Cynical play does not mean its a black card, its pretty clear cut.

The body check is for late challenges on a player who has passed the ball and you've prevented him from get back involved in the play.

Dragging a man to the ground means you have to do it. If he's too big and you can't then its not a black card.

So if O'Shea falls over it's a black card. Silly interpretation if that's the case. I have played lots of gaelic football and i know all about the bodycheck - glad to see it go. But cynically pulling a man down is extended to grabbing a jersey and stopping him breaking after he has got past you. I saw this being discussed on tv last January and examples were shown. My interpretation would be that foul is as cynical whether or not O'Shea takes a tumble

blowitupref

blowitupref wrote: »

Mayo not in form of last year or 2012 and their defence isn't as solid as it has been under Horan. This is very much a Kerry side in transition however the manner of their Munster final win has given them a new found confidence they perhaps didn't have the last two years. Sundays game all points to a high scoring contest and I have a feeling Kerry will nick it with a late goal.

Kerry 2-14 Mayo 1-16

Well it was a high scoring contest i got the Mayo score spot on and a late goal almost nicked a win for Kerry.

Stoner

Peist2007 wrote: »

So if O'Shea falls over it's a black card. Silly interpretation if that's the case. I have played lots of gaelic football and i know all about the bodycheck - glad to see it go. But cynically pulling a man down is extended to grabbing a jersey and stopping him breaking after he has got past you. I saw this being discussed on tv last January and examples were shown. My interpretation would be that foul is as cynical whether or not O'Shea takes a tumble

I'm fairly sure it means pulling the man to the ground not just dragging out of him and I guess you are correct they are both cynical fouls just committing only one will get you black card.

http://www.gaa.ie/about-the-gaa/rules-and-regulations/

harpsman

keane2097 wrote: »

Sin bin wouldn't be a bad idea, it's good the way refs have complete discretion in rugby and seem to be empowered by those in charge of them to ref a game as they see it rather than strictly adhering to the book.

GAA people crying constantly for consistency is what leads you to stuff like Keegan's red card yesterday, because the only way refs can be consistent is if they all ref by the book all the time. You can't really blame them when it leads to ridiculous situations after.

One thing re: the sin bin is that you would have to go away and revise the list of offences for it like they did with the black card, because when it was trialled in the league before without changing what counted as a yellow card it was a farce.

Not sure what your questions mean if you want to explain them a bit more

Glad to see you ve come round to my thinking on black card/sin bin/ref discression argument-better late than never:D

My question referred to the fact that the yellow and red cards are imported from the dreaded soccer and before they were introduced you had farcical situation of nobody knowing who had been booked and even the odd occasion when players "didnt know" theyd been sent off and played on for a few minutes.

keane2097

harpsman wrote: »

Glad to see you ve come round to my thinking on black card/sin bin/ref discression argument-better late than never:D

Ah I would have always thought there were a variety of ways to tackle some of the issues in football - if I gave the impression that the black card was the only way forward then I misspoke.

If anything, the idea I most stridently argued for was for refs to be allowed to award 45s (or some breed of convertible free anyway) in a variety of situations - e.g. mouthing off, delaying frees, off the ball bodychecks etc.

That would cut out a rake of stuff overnight at the same time as incentivising the art of the off the ground free which some people love.

You would still need a black card or sin bin for some other stuff alright even then of course.

harpsman wrote: »

My question referred to the fact that the yellow and red cards are imported from the dreaded soccer and before they were introduced you had farcical situation of nobody knowing who had been booked and even the odd occasion when players "didnt know" theyd been sent off and played on for a few minutes.

Ha I have you now. Of course something like an aesthetic change to clarify something like bookings for everyone can only be a good thing.

I was talking specifically about rules surrounding goal chances and general tackling. I have a long essay on the subject of tackling and the dangers of apeing soccer if you ever want something to help you sleep

DDC1990

A lot of people want to see a Red Card for "last man" tackles, simply because its a red card in soccer, no other reason.

Changing a rule for this reason would be pretty silly.

One thing I would adapt from soccer is the issue of injured players. If a player requires attention, then he should go off the field to receive attention, and not be able to come back on until the end of the next play. That way, it would cut out some of the play acting and killing the game, teams do when in front.

keane2097

DDC1990 wrote: »

A lot of people want to see a Red Card for "last man" tackles, simply because its a red card in soccer, no other reason.

Changing a rule for this reason would be pretty silly.

One thing I would adapt from soccer is the issue of injured players. If a player requires attention, then he should go off the field to receive attention, and not be able to come back on until the end of the next play. That way, it would cut out some of the play acting and killing the game, teams do when in front.

Pat McEnaney has the opposite attitude to that - as they do in rugby - which is that play should continue most of the time when a guy is being "treated". Watch how long a guy stays down petting when his man is flying up the field.

For some reason the directive McEnaney gave on that front last year seems to have been forgotten a bit this year.

TCDStudent1

keane2097 wrote: »

Pat McEnaney has the opposite attitude to that - as they do in rugby - which is that play should continue most of the time when a guy is being "treated". Watch how long a guy stays down petting when his man is flying up the field.

For some reason the directive McEnaney gave on that front last year seems to have been forgotten a bit this year.

For me, the way it works in rugby is the best method. Means that a player only stays down when genuinely hurt.

DoctaDee

I dislike the fact of borrowing rules from other sports but I'd be in favour of a match with an inplay duration of 60 mins and a personal foul count getting a player subbed off

rebel girl 15

DDC1990 wrote: »

A lot of people want to see a Red Card for "last man" tackles, simply because its a red card in soccer, no other reason.

Changing a rule for this reason would be pretty silly.

One thing I would adapt from soccer is the issue of injured players. If a player requires attention, then he should go off the field to receive attention, and not be able to come back on until the end of the next play. That way, it would cut out some of the play acting and killing the game, teams do when in front.

That will depend on what way the report on time keeping will result in - if the hooter comes in, then the referee stops the time so its not wasting time. I know there is a rule in the ladies that its yellow for feigning injuries and diving, which remember is a sin bin for 10 mins, would have to double check what it is in the men's

keane2097 wrote: »

Pat McEnaney has the opposite attitude to that - as they do in rugby - which is that play should continue most of the time when a guy is being "treated". Watch how long a guy stays down petting when his man is flying up the field.

For some reason the directive McEnaney gave on that front last year seems to have been forgotten a bit this year.

I agree, once its not a head injury - guaranteed the lad won't stay down if needed

NabyLadistheman

I thought slowing down a free kick like Buckley did yesterday was a black card offence?

rebel girl 15

Suarezistheman wrote: »

I thought slowing down a free kick like Buckley did yesterday was a black card offence?

Nope, bring the ball forward 13m for each offence

Harry Angstrom

Worth listening to Colm Parkinson on Off The Ball tonight regarding yesterday's match. He spoke a lot of sense.

TCDStudent1

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

Worth listening to Colm Parkinson on Off The Ball tonight regarding yesterday's match. He spoke a lot of sense.

What did he say?

Stoner

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

Nope, bring the ball forward 13m for each offence

At this stage would a temp sticky on the black card work? With a statement that the terms cynical fouling and black card offences are not interchangeable

Dick Turnip

keane2097 wrote: »

Pat McEnaney has the opposite attitude to that - as they do in rugby - which is that play should continue most of the time when a guy is being "treated". Watch how long a guy stays down petting when his man is flying up the field.

For some reason the directive McEnaney gave on that front last year seems to have been forgotten a bit this year.

It works well in rugby but I'm not so sure it would work as well in GAA. In rugby, given how teams line up in play (along the defensive line) it is much easier to compensate if a player is down injured. In football or hurling, given the man marking nature of the games, I feel a team could be unfairly penalised if they had a player, especially a defender down with a genuine injury and play continued.

Harry Angstrom

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

What did he say?

http://www.newstalk.ie/player/shows/Off_The_Ball/10/12316/25th_August_2014_-_Off_The_Ball_Part_1

ciarriaithuaidh

keane2097 wrote: »

That would be such a terrible thing in football. A goal is so much more crucial in a soccer match that it's rightfully punished very harshly to deny someone a goalscoring opportunity.

In football you get a third of the goal even if you decide to tap the penalty over the bar.

Some baffling amount of soccertalk in the stands yesterday, the amount of nonsense you hear along the lines of "Professional foul - that's a straight red" and "he got the ball before he got the man" would leave you despairing.

This is my first post on the game but simply had to add my agreement to the above post by Keane.
I may be intolerant but the amount of horse**** I had to listen to in the stands yesterday was fairly ridiculous. People booing the Ref after giving obvious frees for example. This socceresque behaviour wasn't confined to the stands either as we had the unedifying sight of Aidan O'Shea going to ground and gesturing for the referee to award cards..
Before anyone goes jumping down my throat about bias, Keegan incident was a yellow card all day..I don't give a ****e what the letter of the law says. It was a reckless swipe of the kind that happens up and down the country every weekend and as far as I'm concerned there was very little malice in it. He should be cleared to play Saturday.

yop

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

Worth listening to Colm Parkinson on Off The Ball tonight regarding yesterday's match. He spoke a lot of sense.

Heard it there, Alan Milton is embarrassing with his excuses and reasoning. GAA have gained no fans

Avns1s

yop wrote: »

Heard it there, Alan Milton is embarrassing with his excuses and reasoning. GAA have gained no fans

In my opinion it's even worse than that. All I heard can be summed up as follows - "It's Mayo v Kerry, ye can feck off to Limerick. Who do ye think ye are, Dublin?"

His petty explanations and excuses would turn me off going if I wasn't committed to supporting our team! It's absolutely a case of a second tier treatment for the Mayo (and Kerry) players, management / coaches and fans. Pathetic from GAA HQ and hard to suffer it!

yop

Avns1s wrote: »

In my opinion it's even worse than that. All I heard can be summed up as follows - "It's Mayo v Kerry, ye can feck off to Limerick. Who do ye think ye are, Dublin?"

His petty explanations and excuses would turn me off going if I wasn't committed to supporting our team! It's absolutely a case of a second tier treatment for the Mayo (and Kerry) players, management / coaches and fans. Pathetic from GAA HQ and hard to suffer it!

When asked about there been no trains from Mayo to Limerick he laughed it off, "there weren't last weekend either". <SNIP - Personal Abuse>

JeffKenna

ciarriaithuaidh wrote: »

This is my first post on the game but simply had to add my agreement to the above post by Keane.
I may be intolerant but the amount of horse**** I had to listen to in the stands yesterday was fairly ridiculous. People booing the Ref after giving obvious frees for example. This socceresque behaviour wasn't confined to the stands either as we had the unedifying sight of Aidan O'Shea going to ground and gesturing for the referee to award cards..
Before anyone goes jumping down my throat about bias, Keegan incident was a yellow card all day..I don't give a ****e what the letter of the law says. It was a reckless swipe of the kind that happens up and down the country every weekend and as far as I'm concerned there was very little malice in it. He should be cleared to play Saturday.

Interesting to see you mention Adian O' Shea gesturing for cards yet fail to mention the antics of Donnacha Walsh to the referee in trying to get Keegan sent off?

TCDStudent1

JeffKenna wrote: »

Interesting to see you mention Adian O' Shea gesturing for cards yet fail to mention the antics of Donnacha Walsh to the referee in trying to get Keegan sent off?

The behaviour of both was not good. Same with Alan Dillion who seemed to be telling the ref to book Crowley for the penalty incident.

Avns1s

yop wrote: »

When asked about there been no trains from Mayo to Limerick he laughed it off, "there weren't last weekend either". <SNIP>

I didn't quite like to go that far on a public forum but the way that the interview came across added to the fact that he refused to come on the Tommy Marren show on MWR means would make me doubt that he should be the public face of the GAA. He certainly came across as pompous, dismissive and arrogant.

threeball

Avns1s wrote: »

I didn't quite like to go that far on a public forum but the way that the interview came across added to the fact that he refused to come on the Tommy Marren show on MWR means would make me doubt that he should be the public face of the GAA. He certainly came across as pompous, dismissive and arrogant.

Bit like Liam O Neill so.
I swear the GAA are out for bad publicity this year, Sky Sports, Garth Brooks and now this. I've never seen an administration more amateur.

Tom Joad

Housekeeping

I'm just doing a bit of house keeping - we now have at least 3 threads on this game and this thread was for the original game so locking it now - I have moved the posts since yesterday to the match thread for the replay so the discussions can continue there.