National Series Points

mossym

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Go to the list of NS points for each race, note who is assigned 100 points.

Then find his/her name in the results, and note their position.

Say their position was 71st. You can work out the number of entrants X as 71 is the 30th percentile: (X/100)*30=71, so X=236.667, suggesting their were 237 TI-regged finishers. In the set of results I worked this from, there were actually 290 non-relay finishers, so I'm presuming* 290-237=53 ODL holders.

*big assumption

Kurt,

is it possible some people are excluded from points as they already have run 5 NS races and this race doesn't count for them??

Fazz

Kurt Godel wrote: »

I'm working from the TI results lists, so I can't see who is ODL or not. But those results appear to contain ODL finishers too. And the problem is that sometimes the 30th percentile finisher (from whom everyone's points are based off) is calculated by stripping out the ODL's, but then applied to the full set of results. Other times the 30th percentile finisher is calculated from the full results, and applied to the full set.

I study maths&statistics which is why I'm banging on about this. I totally get the points that TI have more important things to be doing, and also that RD's have to put an awful lot of their free time into satiating NS midpackers like myself. So if anyone knows Excel and wants a hand on the maths side of things, PM me and maybe there's a way to make it easier for everyone that we can show to TI.

Let me try save you the hassle of doing anymore work on this as it's come up before and been discussed with TI and in the process of change.

There's only a handful of races left this season and hopefully 2015 is a new start.


I sent in a few NS proposals a couple seasons ago when it was clear the points sys needed an overhaul primarily due to the inequality of the scoring system.

The current sys returns greater points potential in a race with a larger field, or more notably a larger non competitive field.
Simple example is the year BMC won Athlone National Oly Champs.
Some points chasers/placing hunters chose to race Athlone sprint NS the same/next day instead.
Both races attracted big entries, sprint a lot less competitive and how ironic that BMC points for winning the Oly Champs was similar to the 3rd place of the sprint race!
Yes, the winner (& 2nd) of the less competitive sprint race got more points than the Oly Champs winner.

Anyway, I sent in a number of alternative proposals which TI reviewed and discussed.

TI since altered the sys so now only 1 NS race per weekend which defo helps.
But realistically the sys is now at a Super Series type requirement in order to have value and be seen as a decent goal for athletes.

TI have recognised this and in a recent doc proposed the following which is very encouraging and the way forward imo.
You may have missed it but its here and discussed at recent/future meetings I believe.

http://www.triathlonireland.com/index.php?id=107&nid=1852

One where the top tier compete over a set 4/5/6 races and points based on Win downwards (e.g. 150, 125, 100 etc).
Mandatory 1-2 races being NC races.

The second tie of athletes then competes to graduate to top tier status through points or results etc.

All races remain open to all athletes.
Bar the possibility of a grand final to top 100 or so ranked athletes.

The remaining NS races still count as points races, but don't offer as high a return as the super series races - enables second tier athletes to score and graduate etc.
Demand is such that race entry fields would prob be unaffected, but with super series being the real tester and measure.

Anyway, long story short TI are approaching the above type system and the current scoring sys will hopefully be defunct next season along with a fresh new National Series challenge.

tunney

Fazz wrote: »

Let me try save you the hassle of doing anymore work on this as it's come up before and been discussed with TI and in the process of change.

There's only a handful of races left this season and hopefully 2015 is a new start.


I sent in a few NS proposals a couple seasons ago when it was clear the points sys needed an overhaul primarily due to the inequality of the scoring system.

The current sys returns greater points potential in a race with a larger field, or more notably a larger non competitive field.
Simple example is the year BMC won Athlone National Oly Champs.
Some points chasers/placing hunters chose to race Athlone sprint NS the same/next day instead.
Both races attracted big entries, sprint a lot less competitive and how ironic that BMC points for winning the Oly Champs was similar to the 3rd place of the sprint race!
Yes, the winner (& 2nd) of the less competitive sprint race got more points than the Oly Champs winner.

Anyway, I sent in a number of alternative proposals which TI reviewed and discussed.

TI since altered the sys so now only 1 NS race per weekend which defo helps.
But realistically the sys is now at a Super Series type requirement in order to have value and be seen as a decent goal for athletes.

TI have recognised this and in a recent doc proposed the following which is very encouraging and the way forward imo.
You may have missed it but its here and discussed at recent/future meetings I believe.

http://www.triathlonireland.com/index.php?id=107&nid=1852

One where the top tier compete over a set 4/5/6 races and points based on Win downwards (e.g. 150, 125, 100 etc).
Mandatory 1-2 races being NC races.

The second tie of athletes then competes to graduate to top tier status through points or results etc.

All races remain open to all athletes.
Bar the possibility of a grand final to top 100 or so ranked athletes.

The remaining NS races still count as points races, but don't offer as high a return as the super series races - enables second tier athletes to score and graduate etc.
Demand is such that race entry fields would prob be unaffected, but with super series being the real tester and measure.

Anyway, long story short TI are approaching the above type system and the current scoring sys will hopefully be defunct next season along with a fresh new National Series challenge.

Goooooooo Vodafone sponsorship money

Kurt Godel

tunney wrote: »

I know how you can get waaayyyyyy faster for 2015

Stop fvcking about with the NS stats. If you feel a stats urge coming on, go sit on your turbo

You da boss;)

peter kern

mossym wrote: »

Kurt,

is it possible some people are excluded from points as they already have run 5 NS races and this race doesn't count for them??

no

EC1000

As I said to Kurt in a PM, surely the 30th percentile should be calculated based on the number of starters, not finishers. If I finish, then ergo I have beaten anyone that didn't finish?

BTH

Kurt Godel wrote: »

.....For instance, take the race results from Two Provinces Tri. 534 listed. Take out the DQ, the DNF's, and the relay's, and you're left with 503. To find the 30th percentile (503/100)*30=150.9. I'd argue this should be rounded up, but its rounded down to 150, and sure enough finisher 150 is assigned 100 points.

Obviously been changed since but the TI results under points awarded have 485 TI members, which includes DNFs. 30% is 145.5, finisher 146 gets 100 points.

There appears to be an inconsistency between how the 30th percentile was calculated for my first example as for my second (the flaw may be mine). However, if I'm right, then the NS points for Hook or by Crook are lower than they should be, given that the 30th percentile finisher should be lower than 113th place, so everyones points should be a bit higher.

*Caveat* I may well be wrong, I don't have full data in front of me. If I'm wrong I'll hold my hands up. But it merits further analysis.

HOBC - 214 TI members including DNFs. 30% = 64.2. Finisher 64 gets 100 points.

Kurt Godel wrote: »

I don't get your point BTH? I'm querying the mathematics used (in fact querying the consistency of how its used). Its a largely volunteer driven organisation, I'm not for a second saying results should be up quicker because volunteers need to make more time for us, or anything like that.

You're good with numbers- if you can see a flaw in what I've posted please point it out!:)

My point is TI have done the work for you. The result lists on my first link include everyone who is accounted for, NS points wise, so you can see how many eligible finishers there are and work out the percentile based on that.

Kurt Godel wrote: »

I've been using reverse engineering to work out how points are formulated. The data is from what is listed on the TI site. I've explained above how I'm working out figures (how 30th percentile is worked out; how points are then worked from this).

I've looked at King of the Hill, Two Provinces, Tri Athlone, Hell of the West; and the figures don't add up.

KOTH: 290 non-relay, nonDQ (call them "proper") finishers: 30th percentile finisher based on 237 finishers.

Two Prov: 503 proper finishers: 30th percentile based on 500 finishers.

Tri Athlone: 651 proper finishers: 30th based on 526 finishers.

HOTW: 880 proper finishers: 30th based on 887 finishers.

I gave up after that. Any slight discrepancy in proper finishers and "based on" finishers can be accounted for by rounding error, but its clear to me that NS points are being calculated differently for different races.

You're trying to guess at the numbers of ODL etc. but TI does this for you. DNFs are included. Look at DaveR1 on the NS listing and you'll see a big fat zero beside his name for HOTW. If they didn't include DNFs in the calculation me wouldnt be recorded as having taken part.

Its nothing to do with finishers. Its to do with TI member starters.

*TI may have amended things since yesterday as I have no doubt they keep an eye on threads like this*

BTH

Oh, so HOBC and Tri the Hook are two separate races. Eh, sorry, but the info on ODLs etc is all there on the TI website.

Kurt Godel

BTH wrote: »

You're trying to guess at the numbers of ODL etc. but TI does this for you. DNFs are included. Look at DaveR1 on the NS listing and you'll see a big fat zero beside his name for HOTW. If they didn't include DNFs in the calculation me wouldnt be recorded as having taken part.

Its nothing to do with finishers. Its to do with TI member starters.

I was taking out DNF's in order that the number got closer to my calculations. As you say, they are included. That's the problem with backwards formulae, you go looking for a known result and tweak things to suit.

I said I'd hold my hands up if I was wrong, and it was wrong of me to assume so much as I did. I've no basis for calling the figures into question. Without seeing the actual data what I did was a pretty pointless exercise.

Now, back to the turbo...

P2C

It seems the larger races with the least competitive fields attract the most points. This year Athlone, Tri Athy have had silly points and relatively weak fields. I expect Dublin City Tri this year to fall in the same category. But the real competitive races aka Killkee/ Dublin City Tri last year got crap points. There was a far more compedtive field in Lanesboro than in Athlone and Caroline Kearney than in Athy. I presume most of the top age groupers avoid for a plethora of reasons.

I am no means a top age grouper but I went to Athlone this year because of the race cancelled in May and it will be the last time I will attend such a race. Way too much training time lost. I had my worst race ever in Athlone. Weakish wave, had to lead the swim, swam hugging the bank, no power on the bike and bonked on the run. I was beaten by guys in my club that I would normally clip by 3 minutes. I got more points than in Caroline Kearney where I had a PB on a measured Olympic course by 5 mins.

Can they not limit the number of races, the number of compeditors and change the races National series. i.e maybe a tick box when entering races. Therefore only leaving competitors that will complete their card and want to compete in the NS. Is suspect that 70% of the field in Athlone don't even know what the NS is about

PWEI

National Series points for Dublin City are up on the TI site now.

Still no points up for The Edge Sports Blackwater Tri.