Irish government jet

Graham

SpaceTime wrote: »

Could they just use a pay-as-you go business jet service for most of their flights though?

Is it going to be available as and when it's required?

Is it going to be cheaper than buying one?

NewSigGuy

logie101 wrote: »

If my memory serves me right the government spent a crazy amount of money putting two new engines in the Gulfstream a couple if years ago instead of replacing the jet.
Common sense would have resulted in the jet being replaced. I think Gulfstream and a number of aircraft manufacturers provided cost effective replacement options.
But the government did not want to been seen to be buying a new jet even if it was cheaper than throwing money at the Gulfstream.
Crazy!

Just for clarity, this is not true. New Engines were not bought for the G-IV.

smurfjed

Just for clarity, this is not true. New Engines were not bought for the G-IV.

Generally people do not buy new engines, they have the engines on pay-by-the-hour maintenance programs from day 1. Or they send their own engines for overhaul, cost of doing this for the Roll Royce Tay is about $2.4 million, but thats after 8000 hours.

NewSigGuy

smurfjed wrote: »

Generally people do not buy new engines, they have the engines on pay-by-the-hour maintenance programs from day 1. Or they send their own engines for overhaul, cost of doing this for the Roll Royce Tay is about $2.4 million, but thats after 8000 hours.

For commercial operators this is largely true, for Bizjet operators it is different and the engines are normally part of the capital outlay as was the case with 251.

smurfjed

NSG, the initial cost of the engine is a capital cost, but the overhaul may not be.

"http://cms.guides.com/cms_files/aircraftbluebook.com/MSP/Rolls-Royce CorporateCare.pdf"

arubex

Graham wrote: »

Is it going to be cheaper than buying one?

It's not just the cost of buying the bizjet that's the issue ( though $39 million for a G450 is nothing to sneeze at ). There's the cost of staffing, training & concurrency, maintenance, hangarage, insurance...

With a hire-by-the-hour bizjet those costs are split across all customers. With your own jet, those still have to be paid even when it's sitting in the hangar 90% of its life. Plus fuel & nav charges when it actually does fly - even if that's just flying to a service center for a scheduled inspection.

To hire a G450 is around $10,000 per hour.

http://www.privatefly.com/private-jets/longrange-jet-hire/Gulfstream-G450.html

Graham

arubex wrote: »

It's not just the cost of buying the bizjet that's the issue ( though $39 million for a G450 is nothing to sneeze at ). There's the cost of staffing, training & concurrency, maintenance, hangarage, insurance...

With a hire-by-the-hour bizjet those costs are split across all customers. With your own jet, those still have to be paid even when it's sitting in the hangar 90% of its life. Plus fuel & nav charges when it actually does fly - even if that's just flying to a service center for a scheduled inspection.

That still hasn't answered the questions I asked though.

If you need to have a jet on permanent standby, you can't be sharing it. Under a fractional ownership scheme that means your fraction is 1/1 (i.e. all of it).

Under any finance/fractional ownership/leasing/pay per hour scheme, the jet operators still has all of those costs and if you need the plane on permanent standby, the operator will need to recover all of those costs.

arubex wrote: »

To hire a G450 is around $10,000 per hour.

http://www.privatefly.com/private-jets/longrange-jet-hire/Gulfstream-G450.html

How much to have that G450 on standby 24/7/365 with a ready-to-go crew?

Preset No.3

Not that our opinion counts for anything, BUT, does a new jet have to be new? Get a bird that is 10 years old and save a bundle of money. The G4 is the preffered option as it can go across the pond without the need for refueling.

Just to compare, what does Cameron use for transport? Also, does NetJets have based aircraft in Ireland all the time?

NewSigGuy

smurfjed wrote: »

NSG, the initial cost of the engine is a capital cost, but the overhaul may not be.

Yes but with most Bizjets the engines are bought with the aircraft unlike Airliners where they may be bought or leased separately. Overhauls are typically amortised over the 1000's of hrs between the shop visit's. The AC G-IV's engine maintenance would have been planned years in advance and budgeted for accordingly. I do remember a leased engine being on the aircraft as its own engines went through their first overhauls.

folbotcar

Graham wrote: »

That still hasn't answered the questions I asked though.

If you need to have a jet on permanent standby, you can't be sharing it. Under a fractional ownership scheme that means your fraction is 1/1 (i.e. all of it).

Under any finance/fractional ownership/leasing/pay per hour scheme, the jet operators still has all of those costs and if you need the plane on permanent standby, the operator will need to recover all of those costs.


How much to have that G450 on standby 24/7/365 with a ready-to-go crew?

I think you're missing the point. You're thinking in terms of a single aircraft when in fact the operator will have a fleet and while fractional ownership means you own a share, it doesn't necessarily mean in an individual aircraft.

Here's a direct quote from Netjet's website:

Become a Shareowner by acquiring a share in a NetJets
aircraft. You enjoy guaranteed access to your aircraft type or
larger, anywhere in the world, at just 10 hours’ notice. Shares start from just
50 hours of flying per year – equivalent to a 1/16th share in an aircraft.

Become a Cardholder by purchasing a Private Jet Card.
One upfront payment buys you 25 flying hours, with no capital cost and
no commitment. We guarantee contractually that your aircraft will be available within 24 hours of your request.

That's ten hours notice, 24 seven. I'm quite sure other operators would guarantee similar or better timescales.

It has to be cheaper to operate that way than to invest in one single aircraft with all the additional costs that entails. When I win the Euro lotto. I will not be buying a jet. I will call them up and demand a jet at my local airport NOW!

smurfjed

Another issue with an European based G4 is the avionics, as the FR24 guys will tell you, very few G4's show up on their screens due to a lack of ADS-B, even when they do show, its generally generic data. With the changes to European ATC requirements next year, operators have the choice to upgrade their avionics at about $1m per aircraft or seek a waiver, they will also start to run into problems with CPDLC requirements over the North Atlantic. So the questions start about dripping money into the aircraft or selling them and upgrading while they still have a residual value. But with the G450 costing around $40m, the G550 around $55m and the G650 around $70m, its not a cheap nor easy decision.

As a G4 pilot, we have a launch time of 2.5 hours, that includes 1 hour to get to operations, so we can have the passengers sitting at their destination before the fractional aircraft would have even arrived to pick them up. But we aren't cheap

arubex

Graham wrote: »

How much to have that G450 on standby 24/7/365 with a ready-to-go crew?

Titan can have a CJ, 757, or 767 in the air within an hour ( I've seen it, too ) without any fractional ownership or planning; you call them up, pay the deposit and it's on its way.

I don't know how much that costs, but if it's a frequent requirement then something's wrong with the organization...

It's a pity we dumped the King Airs ( would have been perfect for intra-Europe transport I'd think ) but I'd be financially happy with a pair of passengers CASAs for routine transport ops ( shared costs with the existing fleet ) and short-notice jet hire for rare contingencies.

We should be aiming for the 80 / 20 split of cost vs capability. That last 20% of capability is where the cost arises.

L1011

arubex wrote: »

Titan can have a CJ, 757, or 767 in the air within an hour ( I've seen it, too ) without any fractional ownership or planning; you call them up, pay the deposit and it's on its way..

If they're not already being used elsewhere...

If you feel you need something on demand 24/365, there is no fractional or spot hire option out there. Its ownership/full lease or nothing.

folbotcar

MYOB wrote: »

If they're not already being used elsewhere...

If you feel you need something on demand 24/365, there is no fractional or spot hire option out there. Its ownership/full lease or nothing.

But realistically is that even needed or offered by the current Air Corps operation?

MadYaker

I'll let them use my G650 if they ask nicely.

L1011

folbotcar wrote: »

But realistically is that even needed or offered by the current Air Corps operation?

Probably. Not info that'd be public domain

smurfjed

TOKYO (Kyodo) -- Japan picked the Boeing 777 aircraft on Tuesday as its new government aircraft for overseas trips by the prime minister and members of the imperial family.

A pair of Boeing 777-300ERs -- which will start operational use in the fiscal year from April 2019, replacing the two B-747 aircraft currently in use -- will be maintained by All Nippon Airways Co., the government said.

ANA outbid rival Japan Airlines Co. for the right to maintain the aircraft, which are known as "Japanese Air Force One."

The selection of the B-777 aircraft, which will be operated by the Air Self-Defense Force, was finalized at a meeting of a government panel on Tuesday.

The B-777s were chosen from aircraft that met a number of conditions set by the government, including the ability to fly nonstop to the East Coast of the United States, and being large enough for VIPs and their entourage as well as communications equipment to handle sensitive information.

Now thats what i call a government jet

Preset No.3

A bit of an off shoot from that. A 319CJ maintained by Aer Lingus or a BBJ maintained by Ryanair.

Not the worst idea in the world.

man98

Preset No.3 wrote: »

A bit of an off shoot from that. A 319CJ maintained by Aer Lingus or a BBJ maintained by Ryanair.

Not the worst idea in the world.

Or an ATR 42-600.

Preset No.3

man98 wrote: »

Or an ATR 42-600.

Hope the ATR flies on air when crossing the atlantic!

billie1b

Preset No.3 wrote: »

Hope the ATR flies on air when crossing the atlantic!

One of them bad boys came across from Canada a couple of weeks ago

man98

billie1b wrote: »

One of them bad boys came across from Canada a couple of weeks ago

They can do 1800km on a tank of fuel, but if we sent Joan Burton in, she could charm them into throwing in extra fuel tanks. A couple of Jerry cans and it could cross the Atlantic!

man98

Reading into it, we should just get a Bombardier CSeries jet. 2,950 miles range at full payload (ignoring Jetstream), which could make Riyadh, Halifax in Canada (against the wind) or New York on a good day. Cityjet are probably going to end up buying a few and if they will they'll have a base in Dublin for them. Low fuel costs, easier than a BBJ or A319CJ and brand new.

smurfjed

easier than a BBJ or A319CJ

Why easier? Surely both he BBJ/ACJ have a more established support base?

L1011

Its an easier sell to the media due to the heavy Belfast content in them. That's about it

Preset No.3

billie1b wrote: »

One of them bad boys came across from Canada a couple of weeks ago

Honestly, I thought that I would get a more intelligent answer from you on this one. You know the range of a G4, Dublin to Washington DC with no issues. A slow ATR going westbound to the US, is a massive difference than going from somewhere in Canada to Dublin. Sure you know that a 738 can go direct from Seatle to Dublin on a delivery flight.

billie1b

Preset No.3 wrote: »

Honestly, I thought that I would get a more intelligent answer from you on this one. You know the range of a G4, Dublin to Washington DC with no issues. A slow ATR going westbound to the US, is a massive difference than going from somewhere in Canada to Dublin. Sure you know that a 738 can go direct from Seatle to Dublin on a delivery flight.

I was merely pointing out that it crossed the Atlantic, wasn't saying it could do a world trip, I like the idea of a BBJ though

newcavanman

now that it looks like there may be a need for either major work, or to replace the G4, im wondering what people think should replace it.
I thought the best option would be an A320 or 737NG convertible. I would feel they could pick up a low hours model, not a whole lot dearer than a G4/5 type aircraft. It would be able to perform support flights for the army UN missions, but also, head of state missions. The Air Corp could use EI /FR simulators and spares inventories.
Like I say, im not definite on the prices, but id say im not far from the mark

Reggie.

newcavanman wrote: »

now that it looks like there may be a need for either major work, or to replace the G4, im wondering what people think should replace it.
I thought the best option would be an A320 or 737NG convertible. I would feel they could pick up a low hours model, not a whole lot dearer than a G4/5 type aircraft. It would be able to perform support flights for the army UN missions, but also, head of state missions. The Air Corp could use EI /FR simulators and spares inventories.
Like I say, im not definite on the prices, but id say im not far from the mark

That would be the common sense approach

doolox

Would it be possible to lease a jet until we get the public finances in better shape?