Irish Rail strike days

mickydoomsux

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Note that those employees pay up to 46% in tax every week so they would be bailing themselves out.

Yeah, a lot of people seem to think that IE employees (and other people working in the public sector) pay no tax at all and the money they get is somehow "dishonestly" earned.

Jamie2k9

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Note that those employees pay up to 46% in tax every week so they would be bailing themselves out.

We all pay taxes, big deal, it does not mean IE employee taxes should go into saving the company because they are running out of money;

Hilly Bill

46% tax, 17% usc. Not much left to fight over is there. The take home pay after tax is less for some than what you would get on the dole with all these different benefits you get these days. You work just to pay the government and your tax then goes to those that havent done a days work in their life and to add insult to injury they give them free travel on top of it.

Hilly Bill

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

We all pay taxes, big deal, it does not mean IE employee taxes should go into saving the company because they are running out of money;

exactly hence the strike. The employees are being taxed extra to bail out the company .

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Seeing the state has money when it suits and they part own Irish Rail, then they should either pay up or sell up.

And if they do sell up what exactly do you think a private group are going to do to employee wages? It is beyond me how a company with a monopoly on the country's trains make a loss, but leaving that aside I would have thought a 1.7% cut was pretty reasonable.

steveblack

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

It is beyond me how a company with a monopoly on the country's trains make a loss,

Political interference plain and simple.

Jammed packed commuter trains in and out of dublin every day, empty trains running in the west of ireland to keep a politician happy. There is where money could be made, transfer those train carriages to dublin where they will be filled and profitable.

Free Travel, IE getting paid pennys per journey, where as fair paying passengers are coughing up €10+ per ticket.

No need to wonder why IE or The CIE group of companies struggle to turn a profit.

mickydoomsux

steveblack wrote: »

Free Travel, IE getting paid pennys per journey, where as fair paying passengers are coughing up €10+ per ticket.

There are people i see traveling to work everyday on their FTP who get on the same trains as people paying thousands a year on commuter tickets. The price of yearly tickets from our station to Dublin is going up by roughly a grand this September. Paying customers are absolutely right to be pissed off with the company and i can hardly blame them for finding alternative transport arrangements.

How is that "fair" to anyone involved, except for the person on the free ride?

Jamie2k9

Hilly Bill wrote: »

exactly hence the strike. The employees are being taxed extra to bail out the company .

yet the bailout bill will grow be a couple of hundred thousand because of the strikes so who will pick up the bill?

46% tax, 17% usc. Not much left to fight over is there. The take home pay after tax is less for some than what you would get on the dole with all these different benefits you get these days. You work just to pay the government and your tax then goes to those that havent done a days work in their life and to add insult to injury they give them free travel on top of it.

With respect there is plenty in IE who don't know a hard days work is.

n97 mini

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Note that those employees pay up to 46% in tax every week so they would be bailing themselves out.

The subvention works out at about €28k per staff member so if the average wage was €62k that'd be accurate. Except they wouldn't be contributing anything to any other public services they use if all their income tax went into IE.

Infini

Meanwhile in Mauritius.....

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/irish-rail-boss-enjoys-mauritius-4080620

end of the road

CatFromHue wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0801/634643-irish-rail-nbru/




http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/republic-of-ireland/irish-rail-workers-to-go-on-strike-30477637.html

For someone who doesn't follow this regularly when I read stuff like the above I have no sympathy for the strikers, none.

the strikers don't want your sympathy, or care whether one has sympathy for them or not, all they care about is resolving this to a satisfactory deal, we'd all do the same if we could. some unions accepting and others rejecting is good old democracy in action

end of the road

n97 mini wrote: »

The fact the unions are going on strike on what are set to be very lucrative days only worsens the company's financial position and does little to further their cause.

it does a lot to further their cause hense why they are doing it

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

If Income tax is cut in the budget it may very well cancel out any basic cut to wages.

i'd say hell would freeze over before income tax is cut.

end of the road

lxflyer wrote: »

Passenger numbers fell dramatically.


The basic question is should the government maintain subsidy levels at the same level despite the fact that far fewer people are being transported?


The reverse should apply in normal conditions, that as passenger numbers start to increase, subsidy levels should rise again, but there is the second aspect in recent years of every government department having to cut expenditure due to the financial predicament that this country finds itself in.

if cutting the subsidy leads to trains so short that they cause discomfort that people go to alternatives then that isn't good

end of the road

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

a company with a monopoly on the country's trains

in fairness a monopoly on a railway isn't unique to ireland, you have NIR, and the franchizes in the UK are monopolies in a sense

end of the road

steveblack wrote: »

Jammed packed commuter trains in and out of dublin every day, empty trains running in the west of ireland to keep a politician happy.

the empty trains would only equal a couple of train sets which won't be returning to dublin even if the WRC was shut as they are based in limerick and rotate to cork meaning you will still have jammed packed commuter trains.

steveblack wrote: »

transfer those train carriages to dublin where they will be filled and profitable.

as i said can't be done

steveblack wrote: »

Free Travel, IE getting paid pennys per journey, where as fair paying passengers are coughing up €10+ per ticket.

the free travel is an issue but even if it was solved you would still be coughing up 10 € + per ticket. i would say 10 € for a train ticket is actually a good deal.

steveblack wrote: »

No need to wonder why IE or The CIE group of companies struggle to turn a profit.

because most of the public transport cannot, will not, and isn't supposed to make a profit, no matter who ran it, its not its job to do so and rightly so, all though it would be nice in an ideal world if it did.

stephenjmcd

Just wondering as it's the nbru will bus drivers pass pickets . ie are dublin bus drivers goin to walk out

Hilly Bill

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

And if they do sell up what exactly do you think a private group are going to do to employee wages? It is beyond me how a company with a monopoly on the country's trains make a loss, but leaving that aside I would have thought a 1.7% cut was pretty reasonable.

If a private company take over IR they have to take on the staff on their current wage.

Hilly Bill

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

yet the bailout bill will grow be a couple of hundred thousand because of the strikes so who will pick up the bill?



With respect there is plenty in IE who don't know a hard days work is.

But at least they are working and paying their fair share in taxes which in turn helps to keep the work shy in free travel.

Hilly Bill

n97 mini wrote: »

The subvention works out at about €28k per staff member so if the average wage was €62k that'd be accurate. Except they wouldn't be contributing anything to any other public services they use if all their income tax went into IE.

At this point i wish there was a bang head against wall smilie .

n97 mini

Hilly Bill wrote: »

At this point i wish there was a bang head against wall smilie .

Not entirely sure what you mean, but just for the record I find your points on the topic to be fairly reasonable and I was pointing out the €28k per staff member more for statistics than anything else.

n97 mini

end of the road wrote: »

the empty trains would only equal a couple of train sets which won't be returning to dublin even if the WRC was shut as they are based in limerick and rotate to cork meaning you will still have jammed packed commuter trains.

We did have a situation with jam packed 2-car DARTs a while back - reduced to 2 cars to save money - while empty trains were running to Sligo...

end of the road

n97 mini wrote: »

We did have a situation with jam packed 2-car DARTs a while back - reduced to 2 cars to save money - while empty trains were running to Sligo...

what empty trains running to sligo? i believe some lower used services were merged, but the reduction in dart carriges (which i believe was a wrong strategy) would have happened anyway regardless, my point still stands, the 2800 class is rotated between limerick and cork, its based in limerick, so even if the services they operate out of limerick went they would most likely either.
1. stay down there and continue to rotate to cork and sit around otherwise.
2. the 2600s retired early and the 28s go to cork full time to replace them.
either way closing services won't bring carriges back to dublin i'm sorry to say

Cookie_Monster

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Yes 7%.

Infini2 wrote: »

Not against core pay however they agreed to reduced terms and conditions 2 years ago in return for leaving core pay alone till 2016.

So which is it?

Hilly Bill

Both

Cookie_Monster

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Both

well that clarifies it then :rolleyes:

want to maybe stop being pointlessly cryptic and actually explain what you mean by "both"?

mickydoomsux

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

So which is it?

There was a 7% increase agreed a few years ago that simply didn't happen and is never mentioned by management. It didn't happen so it is just going to disappear into the ether.

There were cost cutting measures applied a couple of years ago as well and they "guaranteed" no further cuts until 2016. Guess it was no cuts until 2016 until they decided that cuts were desperately needed in 2014 to keep the company alive (out of nowhere seemingly, and this is the only option to keep the company afloat).

n97 mini

end of the road wrote: »

either way closing services won't bring carriges back to dublin i'm sorry to say

That depends on the sets used, which is another discussion, but my point is save money with reductions to under used services, not very busy ones. But I suspect it's politically easier to reduce DARTs to 2 cars than it is to delete 2 services from a little used route, even though the former affects far more.

Hilly Bill

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

well that clarifies it then :rolleyes:

want to maybe stop being pointlessly cryptic and actually explain what you mean by "both"?

Im supposed to be 7% better off in my wages but im not.

Infini

As mickey said workers were owed the 7% in total in line with inflation but wasnt delivered on.
Basically the worker side gave various sick pay, al and other conditions in return for keeping core pay as it was. This was meant to last till 2016 but now managent are reneigning on the previous deal and looking to impose cuts leading to strikes.

Like I said before if it was a minor pay cut just as it was it might seem petty but its the whole gutting of the place in terms of staffing level on the front line as well as constantly filling management and reneiging on a previous agreement along with other factors is whats causing this.

end of the road

n97 mini wrote: »

That depends on the sets used, which is another discussion

more or less commuter sets, which won't be returned to dublin, but will most likely rotate to cork, ICRS can turn up an odd time but they usually rotate but won't make a difference if for example the WRC went.

n97 mini wrote: »

my point is save money with reductions to under used services, not very busy ones.

i know, but it has been done all ready

n97 mini wrote: »

I suspect it's politically easier to reduce DARTs to 2 cars than it is to delete 2 services from a little used route, even though the former affects far more.

nothing to do with politics, deleting 2 services from a little used route is not going to bring back more carriges on the dart, they are both irrelevant to each other. fact is cost reductions would effect everyone no matter what, until the government realise public transport has to be payed for that isn't going to change.

may06

n97 mini wrote: »

We did have a situation with jam packed 2-car DARTs a while back - reduced to 2 cars to save money - while empty trains were running to Sligo...

Sligo capacity was also reduced - no such thing as an empty train on that route now.

n97 mini

may06 wrote: »

Sligo capacity was also reduced - no such thing as an empty train on that route now.

I walk the Royal Canal regularly and see my fair share of 22k's passing with 1-3 people per carriage.

end of the road

may06 wrote: »

Sligo capacity was also reduced - no such thing as an empty train on that route now.

yes i believe some trains have overcrowding issues or has that resolved itself now?

end of the road

n97 mini wrote: »

I walk the Royal Canal regularly and see my fair share of 22k's passing with 1-3 people per carriage.

maybe at dinner time, many routes can have that problem from time to time, however those trains would have to run anyway as they will have to go down for the return services which could be packed

may06

end of the road wrote: »

yes i believe some trains have overcrowding issues or has that resolved itself now?

Can only speak for 0540 that comes from Longford - its packed as always and will get packed even further once college/school resumes. 1805 connolly longford is jammed to capacity too. Evening Sligo services ex-Connolly at the mo not overcrowded, but again that is set to change once schools/colleges reopen

may06

n97 mini wrote: »

I walk the Royal Canal regularly and see my fair share of 22k's passing with 1-3 people per carriage.

Yeah, i'd say you do alright...gross exaggeration that one.

mickydoomsux

Infini2 wrote: »

...the whole gutting of the place in terms of staffing level on the front line as well as constantly filling management.....

This is more of a problem than most people realize.

The reason your reserved seat can't be enforced? The reason that someone in a wheelchair needs to have passengers take them off the train (recent event in Landsdowne)? The reason a blind person is killed by a train last week? The reason "antisocial" behavior is rampant throughout the network?

No/few frontline staff.

People left the job on voluntary severance and one guy now covers two or three peoples job on the one shift. People who were actually doing a job, not people sitting in a back office working "office hours" doing God knows what.

Heisenberg1

mickydoomsux wrote: »

There was a 7% increase agreed a few years ago that simply didn't happen and is never mentioned by management. It didn't happen so it is just going to disappear into the ether.

There were cost cutting measures applied a couple of years ago as well and they "guaranteed" no further cuts until 2016. Guess it was no cuts until 2016 until they decided that cuts were desperately needed in 2014 to keep the company alive (out of nowhere seemingly, and this is the only option to keep the company afloat).

That 7% rise is that the national wage agreement rise? And the cost cutting that was agreed was there not a part in that agreement that if IE finances deteriorated further pay cuts would be on the table?

n97 mini

may06 wrote: »

Yeah, i'd say you do alright...gross exaggeration that one.

I'll take a photo for you next time. Believe me, outside of commuter traffic there is very little patronage Mon-Thurs and Saturdays.

end of the road

n97 mini wrote: »

I'll take a photo for you next time. Believe me, outside of commuter traffic there is very little patronage Mon-Thurs and Saturdays.

very odd time maybe but not a given. its irrelevant anyway as the trains will have to operate as there will be a return service

n97 mini

end of the road wrote: »

very odd time maybe but not a given. its irrelevant anyway as the trains will have to operate as there will be a return service

Statistically some of them are fairly vacuous both ways.

CatFromHue

end of the road wrote: »

the strikers don't want your sympathy, or care whether one has sympathy for them or not, all they care about is resolving this to a satisfactory deal, we'd all do the same if we could. some unions accepting and others rejecting is good old democracy in action

Maybe not but it'll be very difficult to have a strike for as long as they've planned if the general public are against them.

Infini

Heisenberg1 wrote: »

That 7% rise is that the national wage agreement rise? And the cost cutting that was agreed was there not a part in that agreement that if IE finances deteriorated further pay cuts would be on the table?

Losses arent completely natural tho. Government cut the subsidy after the agreement thus undermining it. The irony is if they reversed the subsidy cuts by €17mil it would get IR on a break even footing.

Hilly Bill

mickydoomsux wrote: »

This is more of a problem than most people realize.

The reason your reserved seat can't be enforced? The reason that someone in a wheelchair needs to have passengers take them off the train (recent event in Landsdowne)? The reason a blind person is killed by a train last week? The reason "antisocial" behavior is rampant throughout the network?

No/few frontline staff.

People left the job on voluntary severance and one guy now covers two or three peoples job on the one shift. People who were actually doing a job, not people sitting in a back office working "office hours" doing God knows what.

To be fair, that has nothing to do with staff shortages plus you will get anti social behaviour regardless of how many new staff you hire.

Hilly Bill

n97 mini wrote: »

Statistically some of them are fairly vacuous both ways.

The only one i'd say with a few on would be the 8:04/8:08 (delete the wrong one ) non stop Connolly-Maynooth in the mornings. All the Sligo's and the Longford's are busy enough leaving Dublin.

Hilly Bill

n97 mini wrote: »

I'll take a photo for you next time. Believe me, outside of commuter traffic there is very little patronage Mon-Thurs and Saturdays.

Very little Paying passengers would be more accurate.

Jamie2k9

Hilly Bill wrote: »

But at least they are working and paying their fair share in taxes which in turn helps to keep the work shy in free travel.

I agree but they have to reach a compromise, paying passengers are making the biggest contribution and staff should have to as well. Without passengers it excuse of staff paying taxes and bailing out the company will be gone as passengers can't take much more fare hikes. Yes they are increasing but are free travelings also increasing and passengers are not going to get a break until they make up the 16 million in losses.

end of the road

n97 mini wrote: »

Statistically some of them are fairly vacuous both ways.

doesn't matter, the trains will have to operate as there will be a return service. there is no guarintee that the particular train with few passengers will have few passengers going back, a return service with few passengers could be operated by a different train, thats how it works

end of the road

CatFromHue wrote: »

Maybe not but it'll be very difficult to have a strike for as long as they've planned if the general public are against them.

not at all, the general publics opinion doesn't matter in these situations , this is simply about resolving a dispute and this is the last tool in the box, i'd be surprised if there isn't some agreement reached either before or after the strike