"Sorry, it's company policy"

FamousBelgian

My question is, how far can a company go in their dealings with customers by justifying anything and everything on their company 'policy'?

Yesterday I spent a lot of time on the phone to a company that can apply seemingly arbitrary and illogical conditions to its actions which ultimately cost their customers time and money without any comeback. Their published Terms and Conditions are so vague as to be meaningless and any request for comfirmation in writing of information given verbally is 'against company policy'.

For example, imagine a bank that could not give you your balance in writing so you have to call them up constantly to see if you are in credit. If you go overdrawn they penalise you but if you are in the black at the end of the month they 'expire' your money and start you from zero the following month. And all in line with company policy and T's+C's which are subject to change 'from time to time as may be advised' (but they don't advise you).

So, to whom to complain when a company goes too far with their 'policy'?

slimjimmc

They can probably go as far as they want so long as they're compliant with their legal and contractual obligations.

Do you have a specific consumer issue that you need help with?

srsly78

Your statutory rights are unaffected. This said, if the company has silly policies then take your business elsewhere.

stevemul

Media is a wonderful tool nowadays for the consumer.
Find their Twitter and Facebook details and ask them specific questions which will embarrass them. They will usually try to get you to contact them by PMs but don't be persuaded. Keep giving out their details which you're not happy with without divulging your personal details.
Also, try emailing their Press Office - tell them you will make the issues public.
I recently had a grievance with a " National Car Park" Company so I rang the Press Office and said I was a Freelance Journalist writing a News item for TV on Consumer Complaints against them. That got their attention!

dudara

OP - please provide some specifics. Right now, your post is so general as to be meaningless. No one can provide useful or helpful advice until they know more.

dudara

FamousBelgian

slimjimmc wrote: »

They can probably go as far as they want so long as they're compliant with their legal and contractual obligations.

Do you have a specific consumer issue that you need help with?

OK, I'll give the specific instance. It's for a prepaid mobile phone number. The operator requires a top up of credit on a regular basis. If the customer does not top up within a certain period then the number is made inactive until the customer adds credit to the account. Seems simple enough until you discover that the operator can shorten the period in which to top up and also the period in which it is possible to reactive the account and claim the frozen credit, and this without prior notice.
In my case a payment was made to reactivate the account thru an ATM but the account was not reactivated until I complained. Then it appeared that the payment from the ATM had been lost because, according to company 'policy', ATM payments made while inactive are not applied to the account. The net result was that the operator effectively kept the money without any notification of this. To me that seemed like theft.

It took some phone calls and a few concessions in the name of 'goodwill' but no acknowledgement that their policy actually allows them to silently <SNIP> customers' money.

Part of this is their abysmal technical support but they seem to allow for this with vague and outdated Ts+Cs which they can change 'from time to time' without notification. Written confirmation of anything verbally agreed is 'against company policy'.

My question is, how far can a company go with vague Ts+Cs and invoking 'policy' in refusing reasonable requests. In some countries merchants have little or no leeway in such matters and in this case would have to immediately revert the change to the account and refund the ATM payment because none of their actions was explicitly detailed in their T's+C's, policy be damned. I wonder if it's the same in Ireland.

FamousBelgian

stevemul wrote: »

Media is a wonderful tool nowadays for the consumer.
Find their Twitter and Facebook details and ask them specific questions which will embarrass them. They will usually try to get you to contact them by PMs but don't be persuaded. Keep giving out their details which you're not happy with without divulging your personal details.
Also, try emailing their Press Office - tell them you will make the issues public.
I recently had a grievance with a " National Car Park" Company so I rang the Press Office and said I was a Freelance Journalist writing a News item for TV on Consumer Complaints against them. That got their attention!

I agree but I don't want to name and shame. I'd just like to be able to say to them that they did so-and-so which is not explicitly in their Terms and Conditions and that they stole my money (OK, only e30 but it's my e30). I'd also like to be able to force them to show me chapter and verse of their company policy when they refuse a reasonable request, reasonable meaning figures confirmed in writing. Then send the lot to some ombudsman or other.

slimjimmc

If it's not stated in the T&C's then it is not an agreed term and therefore is most likely outside the terms of the contract. In that case I fully expect you would entitled to a refund, however I'm not aware of any obligation that this be done automatically. Mobile phone networks are regulated by Comreg, if you are unhappy with how a particular provider is operating you can register a complaint with them. http://www.askcomreg.ie/about_us/contact_us.26.LE.asp

Bepolite

FamousBelgian wrote: »

My question is, how far can a company go in their dealings with customers by justifying anything and everything on their company 'policy'?

So, to whom to complain when a company goes too far with their 'policy'?

As far as you let them.

There are a myriad of options open to you as a consumer in seeking recourse.

FamousBelgian

slimjimmc wrote: »

If it's not stated in the T&C's then it is not an agreed term and therefore is most likely outside the terms of the contract. In that case I fully expect you would entitled to a refund, however I'm not aware of any obligation that this be done automatically. Mobile phone networks are regulated by Comreg, if you are unhappy with how a particular provider is operating you can register a complaint with them. http://www.askcomreg.ie/about_us/contact_us.26.LE.asp

Thanks for the responses.

The Terms and Conditions I'm dealing with are http://www.vodafone.ie/terms/prepay/.

To me they seem so general as to be intentionally an excuse for obtuseness. Wherever there is a specific term mentioned (as in 8 months vaidity for prepaid numbers) it is overriden by the provision that it can change at any time. In my experience this has usually been in favour of the company. Also, I have never ever received an email or SMS informing me of a change to the T's+C's. When I ask on the phone for relevant conditions in writing I'm told that this is against company policy.

The end result is that you can pay them money in good faith and they keep the money without providing the expected service. They confirm this in a post on their support forum here on boards but I can not tie them down with the vague T's+C's.

My question is, is there some straightforward law that I can use to force them to refund money for a service they did not provide.

In other countries that I am more familiar with there is no need for a contract for a service like this because the consumer's rights are clearer and better protected by default and no contract can attempt to override them. In this case the operator would never be able to claim that they can change conditions 'from time to time' and certainly never without prior notification.

I've looked at comreg but it appears everything is assessed on a case by case basis so I have to pursue this with the operator first which gives them an opportunity to quote whatever terms and conditions and policies suit their case.

D3PO

Im not sure of the legal position here but I can understand why they would have this kind of policy on prepaid phones. If they are not being topped up its just a resource drain on the company and costing them money and they are getting no revenue in return.

Many companies charge for their utilities even if they are not being used.

Electricity - standing charge even if you use 0 watts
Banks - many have quarterly account charges even if no transactions are being made.

I dont think what Vodafone are doing is unreasonable which it appears you do, perhaps they should state in their T&C's that there is a charge to reactivate the number and in that way it is then very clear as opposed to the way the process works.

FamousBelgian

D3PO wrote: »

Im not sure of the legal position here but I can understand why they would have this kind of policy on prepaid phones. If they are not being topped up its just a resource drain on the company and costing them money and they are getting no revenue in return.

Many companies charge for their utilities even if they are not being used.

Electricity - standing charge even if you use 0 watts
Banks - many have quarterly account charges even if no transactions are being made.

I dont think what Vodafone are doing is unreasonable which it appears you do, perhaps they should state in their T&C's that there is a charge to reactivate the number and in that way it is then very clear as opposed to the way the process works.

I think you miss my point. I don't expect anything for free; Vodafone prices their overhead into the per-minute charges for their service so if you top up a certain amount you pay for all of this in advance. If you don't use the service and, after a reminder, they terminate the service and keep unused credit then that is OK if, and only if, this is made crystal clear in their Terms and Conditions. What Vodafone has done is deactivated an account earlier than specificied and simply <SNIP> the payment made to reactivate it.

Maybe you're used to this level of service; I certainly am not. But what I'm after is the legal basis for ending an agreed and paid for service early and then taking a further payment and simply keeping it, all without a single notification or advice.

dudara

The problem with a pre-paid phone is that you haven't paid for the service. You only pay for the service as you consume it.

D3PO

FamousBelgian wrote: »

I think you miss my point. I don't expect anything for free; Vodafone prices their overhead into the per-minute charges for their service so if you top up a certain amount you pay for all of this in advance. If you don't use the service and, after a reminder, they terminate the service and keep unused credit then that is OK if, and only if, this is made crystal clear in their Terms and Conditions. What Vodafone has done is deactivated an account earlier than specificied and simply <SNIP> the payment made to reactivate it.

Maybe you're used to this level of service; I certainly am not. But what I'm after is the legal basis for ending an agreed and paid for service early and then taking a further payment and simply keeping it, all without a single notification or advice.

7.A minimum level of Call credit (as specified by Vodafone from time to time) must be applied to your Account at such intervals as Vodafone may specify from time to time.

Call credit may not be transferred to any third party account. If the equipment remains inactive or no call credit is applied for a period of 8 months or such other period as Vodafone may advise, all unused Call credit will be lost.

You have no argument as far as I can see they specifyin the T&C's that they may change the periods as vauge as you think that is.

Like I said I dont know for a fact and if you think you do then try and claim back this credit by going to small claims court.

As for how I deal with what I percieve to be bad service. I talk with my wallet and go to another providor.

FamousBelgian

dudara wrote: »

The problem with a pre-paid phone is that you haven't paid for the service. You only pay for the service as you consume it.

I'm not sure I follow you. If you pay for something in advance then you pay first and then consume. If you don't consume you've still paid and you don't get a refund. That's how a prepaid phone account works.

D3PO

FamousBelgian wrote: »

what I'm after is the legal basis for ending an agreed and paid for service

its actually not a paid for service. The clue is in the name pay as you go.

D3PO

FamousBelgian wrote: »

I'm not sure I follow you. If you pay for something in advance then you pay first and then consume. If you don't consume you've still paid and you don't get a refund. That's how a prepaid phone account works.

Id liken it to a voucher. You havent paid for the service until you consume it. Said vouchers likely have an expiry date (now the legal basis of these are a whole diff discussion ! ) but if you dont use it you lose it as it were.

similar premise here.

FamousBelgian

D3PO wrote: »

its actually not a paid for service. The clue is in the name pay as you go.

They can call it whatever they like, Pay Before and Regardless Of Whether You Go would be more accurate. The name of a service does not constitute a legal contract and override one's statutory rights.

But I'm not arguing about having to pay for something. I'm trying to find out how a company can legally breach its own terms and conditions and then simply keep a further good faith payment from a customer which was made in accordance with their terms and conditions.

D3PO

FamousBelgian wrote: »

But I'm not arguing about having to pay for something. I'm trying to find out how a company can legally breach its own terms and conditions and then simply keep a further good faith payment from a customer which was made in accordance with their terms and conditions.

Where has it breached it Terms & Conditions ?

One of the very first things in their T&C's is a mention that Vodafone can modify these T&C's

If you can point to a specific breach of their T&C's then take a small claims case.

FamousBelgian

D3PO wrote: »

Id liken it to a voucher. You havent paid for the service until you consume it. Said vouchers likely have an expiry date (now the legal basis of these are a whole diff discussion ! ) but if you dont use it you lose it as it were.

similar premise here.

But if you went to cash in a voucher and were told that they had brought forward the expiry date without telling you then you'd have what I'm facing.

And if they then said that if you buy another voucher that they will reinstate the old voucher until its published expiry date you could say that that was reasonable.

But if you pay money for the second voucher and then simply take your money and walk away leaving you with no vouchers you'd have my situation.

And then you spend hours on the phone and, as a goodwill gesture, they give you a new voucher without telling you how long it is valid then you'd have my situation.

Is this legal in Ireland?

FamousBelgian

D3PO wrote: »

Where has it breached it Terms & Conditions ?

One of the very first things in their T&C's is a mention that Vodafone can modify these T&C's

If you can point to a specific breach of their T&C's then take a small claims case.

That's the thing: how far can a merchant reserve the right to unilaterally change their terms and conditions? Surely it goes against any idea of a formal contract for the provision of a service.

Would you sign a contract that could change at any time without notifying you much less requiring your assent?

I'm waiting for Vodafone to get back to me and then I'll submit something to Comreg.

slimjimmc

FamousBelgian wrote: »

But if you went to cash in a voucher and were told that they had brought forward the expiry date without telling you then you'd have what I'm facing.

And if they then said that if you buy another voucher that they will reinstate the old voucher until its published expiry date you could say that that was reasonable.

But if you pay money for the second voucher and then simply take your money and walk away leaving you with no vouchers you'd have my situation.

And then you spend hours on the phone and, as a goodwill gesture, they give you a new voucher without telling you how long it is valid then you'd have my situation.

Is this legal in Ireland?

Can you be more specific on this. What is the published expiry and after what period was your account deactivated.

FamousBelgian

slimjimmc wrote: »

Can you be more specific on this. What is the published expiry and after what period was your account deactivated.

T's+C's say expiry after 8 months.

They expire after 180 days without any notice (except one SMS amid a sea of spam SMS's).

The account was topped up at an ATM but not reactivated.
A message on boards got it reactivated as a goodwill gesture.
Account was deactivated TWO weeks after the ATM top up.

Further time on the phone shows the ATM payment was never applied thus the money was effectively <SNIP>. Vodafone still asks for an immediate further payment. None of this is covered in their vague T's+C's.

Requests for written confirmation (by email) are stonewalled with the 'company policy' excuse.

D3PO

FamousBelgian wrote: »

That's the thing: how far can a merchant reserve the right to unilaterally change their terms and conditions? Surely it goes against any idea of a formal contract for the provision of a service.
.

T&Cs arent an actually a formal contract though.

We can really only speculate here, but you do have avenues open to you.

If going through the complaints process with Vodafone doesnt satisfy you you then have the option to either compain to Comreg and or take out a small claims case.

A lot of hassle for what I suspect is €10 or €20 but if your that principled then fill your boots.

Personally Id complain to Vodafone if they don't respond in a way your satisfied with id go and port the number to another providor and be done with it.

slimjimmc

Thanks for the clarification, at least we can see what your complaint is and it seems you certainly do have grounds.
Your best approach is to send a written a complaint to Vodafone by registered post. In your letter be factual and concise, outline the above, state what you want and request a resolution within 10 working days. You should first confirm with your bank that the ATM transaction was successfully completed and money transferred to Vodafone. If you continue to get an unsatisfactory response you have the necessary records to go to Comreg. Yes they deal on a case by case basis (which is important to you) but if they find systemic issues they can deal with those too.

Orion

D3PO wrote: »

Where has it breached it Terms & Conditions ?

One of the very first things in their T&C's is a mention that Vodafone can modify these T&C's

If you can point to a specific breach of their T&C's then take a small claims case.

"reserves the right to alter any terms of this Contract for legal, technical, operational or commercial reasons, or to terminate any package or change its tariffs, on giving you thirty (30) days’ notice."

Without notice to the consumer of a change they've broken their own T&C.

D3PO

Orion wrote: »

"reserves the right to alter any terms of this Contract for legal, technical, operational or commercial reasons, or to terminate any package or change its tariffs, on giving you thirty (30) days’ notice."

Without notice to the consumer of a change they've broken their own T&C.

And the OP got notice in the form of a text ........

so wheres the breach ?

FamousBelgian

D3PO wrote: »

And the OP got notice in the form of a text ........

so wheres the breach ?

I didn't get any notice of a change in T's+C's in a text, or in an email which would be more suitable to something like this.

Where did I say I was notified of a change in T's+C's?

Orion

D3PO wrote: »

And the OP got notice in the form of a text ........

so wheres the breach ?

Right here.

FamousBelgian wrote: »

Also, I have never ever received an email or SMS informing me of a change to the T's+C's. When I ask on the phone for relevant conditions in writing I'm told that this is against company policy.

FamousBelgian

Orion wrote: »

Right here.

Whew! I'm glad someone believes me.

emeldc

I'm with you on this one OP. I was only looking into this yesterday.I have a cheap Vodafone PAYG phone that I was using while my own phone was being repaired. I can't remember the last time I used it but when I checked it yesterday it had been disconnected and about €20 of credit lost. I know it's in the T & C's but seriously, who ever reads all that sh1t for a 10 bob phone.

..........and I didn't get any notification by text or otherwise either.