Malky Mackay and Iain Moody Investigated By The FA - Read Mod Note in OP

Gbear

CSF wrote: »

I'm not drawing comparisons, their offences are very different. The only comparison is that I wouldn't want either anywhere near my club.

But to dismiss him as merely 'a bit of an arse' is shocking. A homophobic, mysoginistic, racist would be alot more accurate.

Or is this another of those things where the person doesn't match with his actions.

'He's not that kind of lad'
Bull****.

Yeah. Like I said; an arse.

Being an ignorant fool and saying things that hurt people's feelings is trivial to the point of invisibility in comparison to rape.

I know I'm nitpicking here but I just think it's crass to even mention them in the same breath.

CSF

Gbear wrote: »

Yeah. Like I said; an arse.

Being an ignorant fool and saying things that hurt people's feelings is trivial to the point of invisibility in comparison to rape.

I know I'm nitpicking here but I just think it's crass to even mention them in the same breath.

No mention of either offence was made, no comparison was made between the 2 offences.

I still feel like you're playing down what Mackay is. That much prejudice is not merely foolish, it's monstrous.

Chucky the tree

It's fitting, and not surprising, that Dave Whelan was the one to hire him. He's like the stereotypical old racist pensioner.

Utopia Parkway

Dave Whelan has done a fantastic job today taking the heat off Malky Mackay.:D

Liam O

CSF wrote: »

No mention of either offence was made, no comparison was made between the 2 offences.

I still feel like you're playing down what Mackay is. That much prejudice is not merely foolish, it's monstrous.

I'd defend him somewhat on that count in that I think it is a very common thing on the British Isles to say or in this case text racist or discriminatory things in confidence but not actually be like that in action or in day to day life. The texts make him out to be a twat but really it's nothing I didn't hear from people growing up in northside Dublin. We are still very far behind the progressive examples when it comes to this sort of thing.

CSF

Liam O wrote: »

I'd defend him somewhat on that count in that I think it is a very common thing on the British Isles to say or in this case text racist or discriminatory things in confidence but not actually be like that in action or in day to day life. The texts make him out to be a twat but really it's nothing I didn't hear from people growing up in northside Dublin. We are still very far behind the progressive examples when it comes to this sort of thing.

I grew up in northside Dublin, still live there, albeit now in one of the posher parts. I heard people make stupid jokes, but the only people I ever heard say such nasty prejudiced things, where people that fit the profile. Mackay fits the profile based on that.

shamrock55

Im delighted he got the wigan job, fair play to dave whealen, the whole thing was blown out of proportion, a few joke txts sent between 2 people in private, the world is gone pc crazy, i guarantee most people on here have made similar type comments to a friend messing around or having a bit of banter ,i know i have , it doesnt make anyone a bad person, and if everyone should not be allowed to work again because of it the entire planet would be unemployed

CSF

shamrock55 wrote: »

Im delighted he got the wigan job, fair play to dave whealen, the whole thing was blown out of proportion, a few joke txts sent between 2 people in private, the world is gone pc crazy, i guarantee most people on here have made similar type comments to a friend messing around or having a bit of banter ,i know i have , it doesnt make anyone a bad person, and if everyone should not be allowed to work again because of it the entire planet would be unemployed

Reckon its just you, Malky and the other people of your kind, unfortunately.

Liam O

CSF wrote: »

I grew up in northside Dublin, still live there, albeit now in one of the posher parts. I heard people make stupid jokes, but the only people I ever heard say such nasty prejudiced things, where people that fit the profile. Mackay fits the profile based on that.

Maybe a bit of a tangent as England and Scotland have been a lot more multicultured for longer than Ireland so he should know better but the outsider culture is still prevalent and people are culturally stuck in the past in the British Isles. In Ireland especially people have still been brought up with just Irish white people as friends in this lifetime and haven't had the interaction with other races and culture needed to move past this stuff.

Now I can't speak for Mackay personally but it might be the same for him. It does leave something in a person's mind when they come from a conservative culture and hears these slurs coming from friends and family members who will not really accept you being offended by these comments and it took me a while to turn against them myself in a way. I can see the process seeing older relatives and even just people in the pub growing up. Nothing is going to change this attitude other than further education and further integration. I think overly chastising people for this when a lot of people might still not see it as that big a deal or something they would say is counterproductive. Especially comparing him to rapists and such.

shamrock55

CSF wrote: »

Reckon its just you, Malky and the other people of your kind, unfortunately.

You can honestly say you have never made a light hearted comment about another race, gender or gay person in your life?? Well fair play to you jesus. Btw i have no problems whatsoever with other races or gay people, i have quite a few friends of different race and sexuality, but i have from time to time made off the cuff silly remarks or jokes regarding such things

CSF

Liam O wrote: »

Maybe a bit of a tangent as England and Scotland have been a lot more multicultured for longer than Ireland so he should know better but the outsider culture is still prevalent and people are culturally stuck in the past in the British Isles. In Ireland especially people have still been brought up with just Irish white people as friends in this lifetime and haven't had the interaction with other races and culture needed to move past this stuff.

Now I can't speak for Mackay personally but it might be the same for him. It does leave something in a person's mind when they come from a conservative culture and hears these slurs coming from friends and family members who will not really accept you being offended by these comments and it took me a while to turn against them myself in a way. I can see the process seeing older relatives and even just people in the pub growing up. Nothing is going to change this attitude other than further education and further integration. I think overly chastising people for this when a lot of people might still not see it as that big a deal or something they would say is counterproductive. Especially comparing him to rapists and such.

I didn't compare him to a rapist.

This isn't one of those overly-PC issues, sometimes people make stupid jokes that get blown out of proportion. Sometimes people make stupid comments that aren't meant to be offensive, particularly older people. Do I think these people are necessarily bad people? No.

Do I think people who make nasty horrible remarks about other groups of people, with no real punchline other than that these people are considered by the guy to be inferior, not as a joke, his actual opinions.

These people are nasty people, and I'm not particularly concerned with educating them. The Malky Mackays of the world are in a minority and I think exposing them as the people they are and treating them as such is exactly the way around it.

You could make the argument that the likes of Julien Blanc, just need education as to how women are people just like men, but realistically, these people are intelligent enough with the analytical skills to know better, but have chosen to be narrow-minded cavemen anyway. No place in society for these people.

Ranchu

Ron Atkinson got sacked for this sort of nonsense a decade ago. There is no excusing it in this day and age.

CSF

Ranchu wrote: »

Ron Atkinson got sacked for this sort of nonsense a decade ago. There is no excusing it in this day and age.

It is the lack of any formal punishment that really bothers me. Mackay has genuinely gotten away with an apology here so far which is just appalling. I really really hope the FA come out and deal with this very strongly.

We can have the sort of conversation about a player or a manager being rehabilitated and ready to go back playing or into management, when they've actually served a punishment. Then they can serve the punishment of being shunned because of what they've done and having to crawl their way up that ladder aswell.

I get that some people don't take these things very seriously as has been illustrated in this thread (by some people more than others, others have made some decent enough points to the contrary), but the FA need to show that this Kick It Out thing is a real thing, and we're not just going to constantly brush these things off with 'Hes not that sort of lad'.

shamrock55

Ranchu wrote: »

Ron Atkinson got sacked for this sort of nonsense a decade ago. There is no excusing it in this day and age.

He only got sacked because he said it on live tv

CSF

shamrock55 wrote: »

He only got sacked because he said it on live tv

Andy Gray and Richard Keys wasn't live TV. If it comes out in the public, you're getting sacked and rightly so. Being racist, homophobic or mysogynistic is not ok. Do I think everyone needs to walk around walking on eggshells for fear of accidentally offending someone? No. But that doesn't mean you can get away with belittling someone else because of their race, gender, or sexual orientation (among other things) either.

shamrock55

CSF wrote: »

It is the lack of any formal punishment that really bothers me. Mackay has genuinely gotten away with an apology here so far which is just appalling. I really really hope the FA come out and deal with this very strongly.

We can have the sort of conversation about a player or a manager being rehabilitated and ready to go back playing or into management, when they've actually served a punishment. Then they can serve the punishment of being shunned because of what they've done and having to crawl their way up that ladder aswell.

I get that some people don't take these things very seriously as has been illustrated in this thread (by some people more than others, others have made some decent enough points to the contrary), but the FA need to show that this Kick It Out thing is a real thing, and we're not just going to constantly brush these things off with 'Hes not that sort of lad'.

They were private txts, i dont think they can punish anyone for what they write in a private txt

CSF

shamrock55 wrote: »

They were private txts, i dont think they can punish anyone for what they write in a private txt

No, they were texts sent on a company phone. Get caught sending racist emails in work tomorrow and see what they can and can't punish you for.

shamrock55

CSF wrote: »

Andy Gray and Richard Keys wasn't live TV. If it comes out in the public, you're getting sacked and rightly so. Being racist, homophobic or mysogynistic is not ok. Do I think everyone needs to walk around walking on eggshells for fear of accidentally offending someone? No. But that doesn't mean you can get away with belittling someone else because of their race, gender, or sexual orientation (among other things) either.

They were doing a live show and it was during an add break i think in front of whoever else works in the studio, getting sacked is one thing, but not being able to work again is a joke,even grey and keys are in broadcasting again and what said was heard by others, mckay was a few jokey txts ffs,

CSF

shamrock55 wrote: »

They were doing a live show and it was during an add break i think in front of whoever else works in the studio, getting sacked is one thing, but not being able to work again is a joke,even grey and keys are in broadcasting again and what said was heard by others, mckay was a few jokey txts ffs,

He should get to work again, I've already said as much in this thread, but after he serves a formal punishment.

Then again, your moral judgement doesn't hold up too well in this thread considering you've already admitted to being the exact same as him.

Let me guess though, you're 'not that kind of lad'

dundalkfc10

shamrock55 wrote: »

You can honestly say you have never made a light hearted comment about another race, gender or gay person in your life?? Well fair play to you jesus. Btw i have no problems whatsoever with other races or gay people, i have quite a few friends of different race and sexuality, but i have from time to time made off the cuff silly remarks or jokes regarding such things

Are we taking it that CSF has never made a comment about any of the above in the opening sentence?

Fair play Wigan...Malckays a top manager

CSF

shamrock55 wrote: »

You can honestly say you have never made a light hearted comment about another race, gender or gay person in your life?? Well fair play to you jesus. Btw i have no problems whatsoever with other races or gay people, i have quite a few friends of different race and sexuality, but i have from time to time made off the cuff silly remarks or jokes regarding such things

We're not talking about silly remarks or jokes here, I've clarified that. As long as there is a punchline that isn't that the person you're joking about is inferior to you, and you don't mean it.

CSF

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

Are we taking it that CSF has never made a comment about any of the above in the opening sentence?

Fair play Wigan...Malckays a top manager

We are taking it that I've never done anything like what is being talked about here, yes.

I can't fathom how the implication here is that 'Is this guy seriously trying to act like he doesn't say mean things about other races etc?'

Is society that bad?

shamrock55

CSF wrote: »

He should get to work again, I've already said as much in this thread, but after he serves a formal punishment.

Then again, your moral judgement doesn't hold up too well in this thread considering you've already admitted to being the exact same as him.

Let me guess though, you're 'not that kind of lad'

Look at you with your moral judgement, you never answered my previous question did you i wonder why that is , you are a total hypocrite if you ask me, oh and answer my question

CSF

shamrock55 wrote: »

Look at you with your moral judgement, you never answered my previous question did you i wonder why that is , you are a total hypocrite if you ask me, oh and answer my question

Which question? I definitely have nothing to avoid here.

shamrock55

:cool:

CSF wrote: »

We are taking it that I've never done anything like what is being talked about here, yes.

I can't fathom how the implication here is that 'Is this guy seriously trying to act like he doesn't say mean things about other races etc?'

Is society that bad?

At least im honest mate, you are lieing through your teeth if you can say you have never made any comments like that in a fun or lighthearted way, and i for one aint gonna waste my time to reponding to your posts if you cant at least admit to that, wether thats what mckay did or not is not the point, i just want to know in your lifetime have you ever made a lighthearted or fun comment to a friend or someone you know regarding race, gender or sexuality?

CSF

shamrock55 wrote: »

:cool:

At least im honest mate, you are lieing through your teeth if you can say you have never made any comments like that in a fun or lighthearted way, and i for one aint gonna waste my time to reponding to your posts if you cant at least admit to that, wether thats what mckay did or not is not the point, i just want to know in your lifetime have you ever made a lighthearted or fun comment to a friend or someone you know regarding race, gender or sexuality?

Can you clarify what a lighthearted or fun comment regarding race, gender or sexuality is with an example or 2 and I'll be able to give you a better answer? I've a feeling our definitions may differ, nothing like the Mackay ones thats for sure. Nothing lighthearted or fun about them.

shamrock55

CSF wrote: »

Can you clarify what a lighthearted or fun comment regarding race, gender or sexuality is with an example or 2 and I'll be able to give you a better answer? I've a feeling our definitions may differ, nothing like the Mackay ones thats for sure. Nothing lighthearted or fun about them.

You know what im saying alright , your a spoofer , a hypocrite and deluded , carry on though.

Shanotheslayer

shamrock55 wrote: »

Im delighted he got the wigan job, fair play to dave whealen, the whole thing was blown out of proportion, a few joke txts sent between 2 people in private, the world is gone pc crazy, i guarantee most people on here have made similar type comments to a friend messing around or having a bit of banter ,i know i have , it doesnt make anyone a bad person, and if everyone should not be allowed to work again because of it the entire planet would be unemployed

'He's a snake, a gay snake. Not to be trusted' How is that a joke?

'Not many white faces amongst that lot but worth considering.' How is that a joke?

'I hope she's looking after your needs. I bet you'd love a bounce on her falsies.' I can see how this can be seen as a joke even if it misogynistic

CSF

shamrock55 wrote: »

You know what im saying alright , your a spoofer , a hypocrite and deluded , carry on though.

I actually don't. You were talking about Mackay's comments first which definitely aren't lighthearted or fun. Now you're completely changing your tune, and have no real answer other than abuse.

Liam O

shamrock55 wrote: »

You know what im saying alright , your a spoofer , a hypocrite and deluded , carry on though.

No, he has an opinion and is backing it up well which is something that is generally lost on people in this forum. I don't fully agree with his stance but there is basis there and he's perfectly entitled to feel that way. On a different day I might look at it his way. I can definitely see his point and they are a big deal I just think that the way past this stuff is education and progression rather than punishment. Your stance is like saying we've all been in a fight at some stage in our lives so assault is ok.

CSF

Liam O wrote: »

No, he has an opinion and is backing it up well which is something that is generally lost on people in this forum. I don't fully agree with his stance but there is basis there and he's perfectly entitled to feel that way. On a different day I might look at it his way. I can definitely see his point and they are a big deal I just think that the way past this stuff is education and progression rather than punishment. Your stance is like saying we've all been in a fight at some stage in our lives so assault is ok.

The part about education and progression being vitally important I do agree with, for future generations, and I think gradually the world is becoming a little bit more openminded, but for people like Mackay, I don't think education and progression is the way forward. What could you really teach him that he didn't know already but decided to ignore?

Shanotheslayer

CSF wrote: »

. What could you really teach him that he didn't know already but decided to ignore?

Manners :pac:

Liam O

CSF wrote: »

The part about education and progression being vitally important I do agree with, for future generations, and I think gradually the world is becoming a little bit more openminded, but for people like Mackay, I don't think education and progression is the way forward. What could you really teach him that he didn't know already but decided to ignore?

People are going to have crazy beliefs, his came out because he was stupid enough to use a work phone and do it in a way that can be tracked. Punishing people for their beliefs is wrong imo no matter how much I disagree with them. It creates a martyr type thing with people who believe that type of thing is ok. It should rightly be reported as being wrong and he should have to make a personal apology to those who he insulted. He wasn't abusing them to their face or anything, on the field etc. They were stupid comments but they were throwaway comments that seems to have cost him his job, that's enough of a repercussion imo.

Shanotheslayer

Liam O wrote: »

Punishing people for their beliefs is wrong imo no matter how much I disagree with them..

Yes but some of these 'beliefs' are against the law.

CSF

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

Yes but some of these 'beliefs' are against the law.

This. The beliefs that another group of people are inferior to you cannot be condoned.

Lovely Bloke

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

Yes but some of these 'beliefs' are against the law.

no they aren't, what you are describing here is Thought Crime.

If, for example, I believe that all people from Mars are lazy, good for nothing green skinned imbeciles, that's ok once I never use that belief to incite hatred, not give a job to or otherwise discriminate against people from Mars.

How would anyone know it was my belief if I didn't tell them?

If I never allow my prejudice to manifest itself, then that's perfectly legal and dandy, and no one ever knows.

A racist, misogynist, homophobic, anti-Semitic clown appointed manager of a football club?

Hardly a shock. I'm just glad it's not Leeds United, cos it would be just the PR disaster they revel in.

Macavity.

It's hilarious reading all the posts that said he'd never work for a reputable club again.

Lovely Bloke

Macavity. wrote: »

It's hilarious reading all the posts that said he'd never work for a reputable club again.

Wigan & Dave Whelan are reputable?

CSF

Macavity. wrote: »

It's hilarious reading all the posts that said he'd never work for a reputable club again.

Make no mistake. He will be blacklisted to a large extent. He will find it difficult now to establish a relationship with players from the minorities he has displayed bigotry towards.

Most clubs arent run by Dave Whelan, and Dave Whelan owned Wigan are hardly reputable, all the more so now.

castletownman

Wigan could do with a striker. Imagine they signed Ched Evans :eek:

Ched, Dave and Big Mal. Would do wonders for it's public image

keeponhurling

Not sure if this is the right thread, but does anyone else think that the level of hullabaloo over racism in football is over the top?

The are signs and banners before and during seemingly every single match reminding people not to be racist.

Surely football is just a sub section of society, football itself as a sport doesn't encourage division, after all it's a team sport.
Countries where racism is more prevalent in society tend to produce more racist football fans than countries with less racism.

Why don't police have signs up reminding us not to be racist at all public events , concerts, even schools, offices, bus stations etc.

Or why not just focus in the message that we should obey the law , full stop.

CSF

keeponhurling wrote: »

Not sure if this is the right thread, but does anyone else think that the level of hullabaloo over racism in football is over the top?

The are signs and banners before and during seemingly every single match reminding people not to be racist.

Surely football is just a sub section of society, football itself as a sport doesn't encourage division, after all it's a team sport.
Countries where racism is more prevalent in society tend to produce more racist football fans than countries with less racism.

Why don't police have signs up reminding us not to be racist at all public events , concerts, even schools, offices, bus stations etc.

Or why not just focus in the message that we should obey the law , full stop.

Racism is more common at football matches for whatever reason, than at other public events.

eagle eye

Whelan made a very sensible football decision in signing Malky Mackay as his manager. He didn't make a very good public relations decision though.

If Wigan get back in the Premier league I don't think it has hurt them in any way though. They might be considered an unlikeable team but then people see them playing decent football and it will be all forgotten about.

As for Whelan's comments, he is from an older generation where things like this wouldn't bother them. I don't think he is far off the mark with what he said either.

Harry Palmr

Whelan really should take a vow of silence

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/dec/05/dave-whelan-wigan-chinese-chingalings

Chucky the tree

It's like something from a sitcom at this stage.

eagle eye

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Whelan really should take a vow of silence

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/dec/05/dave-whelan-wigan-chinese-chingalings

Why should he? I've read all his comments and his only problem is that he is honest.
The only thing that he has done wrong is being a bit naive imo. The media love to spin things but I can't believe he has been charged by FA for this.

He just said what they used to call Chinese when he was a kid. If a man can't say how things were in the past without being crucified for it then its a sad, sad day for us all. All the efforts to improve racism and discriminatory remarks is because of history. All he said there was what they used to call the Chinese, and not to their faces, when he was young. I've heard all those names used as well when I was a kid and never passed a heed on it as anything other than somebody having a bit of innocent fun. Many years ago we didn't know what racism was and nobody would ever call them a name like that to their face either. There was no intent to hurt anybody with those comments.

Corholio

eagle eye wrote: »

Why should he? I've read all his comments and his only problem is that he is honest.
The only thing that he has done wrong is being a bit naive imo. The media love to spin things but I can't believe he has been charged by FA for this.

He just said what they used to call Chinese when he was a kid. If a man can't say how things were in the past without being crucified for it then its a sad, sad day for us all. All the efforts to improve racism and discriminatory remarks is because of history. All he said there was what they used to call the Chinese, and not to their faces, when he was young. I've heard all those names used as well when I was a kid and never passed a heed on it as anything other than somebody having a bit of innocent fun. Many years ago we didn't know what racism was and nobody would ever call them a name like that to their face either. There was no intent to hurt anybody with those comments.

The guys seems to think he can speak on behalf of all these ethnicities on what is ok to call them. He was charged for the first round of comments which included "If any Englishman said he has never called a Chinaman a chink he is lying. There is nothing bad about doing that"

If you still can't believe he's being charged for that then fair enough. No spin at all needed, he's done all the digging himself.

Paully D

Mackay has been sacked by Wigan tonight.

He leaves them 23rd in the table, 8 points off safety with a game more played than 21st and only 5 games left. Relegated, basically. (most of the bookies have them priced at 1/10 to drop). When he took over they were 1 point off safety in 22nd position with 16 points from 17 games.

That went well anyway!

CSF

Paully D wrote: »

Mackay has been sacked by Wigan tonight.

He leaves them 23rd in the table, 8 points off safety with a game more played than 21st and only 5 games left. Relegated, basically. (most of the bookies have them priced at 1/10 to drop). When he took over they were 1 point off safety in 22nd position with 16 points from 17 games.

That went well anyway!

Hopefully that's him finished anyway, but I wouldn't bank on it.