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Right to return a fault second hand product ?
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21-08-2014 9:32am#1My girlfriend picked up a second hand hair dryer at a charity shop. I am not sure if its allowed to mention the particular brand of shop but its by not the most known but still a well known charity.
We took it home and it basically runs for 20 seconds before it overheats to where it is obviously very dangerous and shuts down.
The shop was on the other side of town to where we live so it took a few days to bring it back whereupon she was told that she cant return it as they have a ''return within 24 hours policy''
I think this is nonsense. The product was dangerous and non working from the moment of purchase.
What are our rights here and what can we say to persuade them to see sense on this matter during a return visit to the store ?0
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I didn't think that charity shops could sell electrical items due to WEEE, or it might just be individual policy.
To be honest, the item was purchased from a charity shop. I wouldn't be taking it any further.0 -
No to the best of my knowledge they cannot sell electrical items because of WEEE regulations. Having said that your girlfriend hardly paid a lot of money for the item and you know the money is going to charity so to be honest I'd chalk it down as a donation to said charity and go out and buy a decent one from a shop that sells them0
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Standard consumer rights should still apply, but the fact that they should never have sold it in the first place and I would assume the lack of a receipt (I've never been given one in a charity shop) means I suspect you'll just be wasting your time chasing it up.0
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Standard consumer rights - question here (genuine). When a product is second hand what are the rights? Such as expecting a product to last for a certain length of time. You don't necessarily know how old the product is therefore how much more of a life expectancy it has etc?0
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Standard consumer rights should still apply, but the fact that they should never have sold it in the first place and I would assume the lack of a receipt (I've never been given one in a charity shop) means I suspect you'll just be wasting your time chasing it up.
After a quick look at http://www.weeeireland.ie/ I'm not sure there is anything preventing charity shops from registering to sell electrical goods. In fact there are a number of exemptions (under free take back, storage and transport requirements) in the WEE regs specifically for charities registered with Revenue.0 -
BeerSteakBirds wrote: »My girlfriend picked up a second hand hair dryer at a charity shop. I am not sure if its allowed to mention the particular brand of shop but its by not the most known but still a well known charity.
We took it home and it basically runs for 20 seconds before it overheats to where it is obviously very dangerous and shuts down.
The shop was on the other side of town to where we live so it took a few days to bring it back whereupon she was told that she cant return it as they have a ''return within 24 hours policy''
I think this is nonsense. The product was dangerous and non working from the moment of purchase.
What are our rights here and what can we say to persuade them to see sense on this matter during a return visit to the store ?
I donate stuff to about 4 different charities in my area all charity shops
All don't accept electrical goods and a
Have signs up all over stating this fact
I'd treat it as a learning curve and don't purchase an electrical item from a charity again0 -
After a quick look at http://www.weeeireland.ie/ I'm not sure there is anything preventing charity shops from registering to sell electrical goods. In fact there are a number of exemptions (under free take back, storage and transport requirements) in the WEE regs specifically for charities registered with Revenue.
I'd be aboslutely certain they *aren't* registered to sell them; though.0 -
Under the sale of goods acts goods sold or rented must have inherent qualities.
These do apply to second hand goods but the durability is not going to be expected
http://corporate.nca.ie/eng/Business_Zone/selling-products-to-consumers/
In short the expectation in a charity shop is that you are buying goods that someone else discarded for whatever reason. That's why the charity shop sells them for half nothing. You get a bargain and they do not warrant as to condition.
In short- taking a small claims court against the charity which the judge will likely throw out you have no come back.
Move on0 -
Mr. Incognito wrote: »In short- taking a small claims court against the charity which the judge will likely throw out you have no come back.
Move on
I simply don't understand this statement. Judges apply the law. The law here is clear. I'd personally encourage the OP to take this further, through the charity rather than through the courts. They should not be selling electrical products that are not fully tested. Furthermore acting the maggot on returns detracts from goodwill - surely not something any charity wants.
OP if the charity are not forthcoming in helping get on to NCA and find out who to report this to. Notwithstanding any other issue selling faulty electrical items is extremely serious.0 -
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Standard consumer rights - question here (genuine). When a product is second hand what are the rights? Such as expecting a product to last for a certain length of time. You don't necessarily know how old the product is therefore how much more of a life expectancy it has etc?
If a business sells second hand items as a regular part of its business (i.e. a phone shop selling reconditioned phones), then your normal consumer rights apply.0 -
If its a genuine & recognised shop I would not.To be honest, the item was purchased from a charity shop. I wouldn't be taking it any further.
I have seen some dodgy looking charity shops springing up these days, and wonder if they were just scammers, possibly genuinely giving something to charity but could be miniscule. I think I might have seen a program on it. It would be a great ploy, get stuff in for free, sell it and hope there is no complaints due to it being for charity.
http://www.icsa.ie/bogus-charity-operations/The ICSA is aware that there is a growing number of bogus charity operators in Ireland.
These can be:-
Bogus charity clothes collectors
Bogus charity shop operations where it is unclear who benefits from the money raised by the shop
Textile banks where it is unclear how much of the money raised is being donated to the charity involved
If this shop is selling electrical goods when it shouldn't be I would be suspicious.0 -
I simply don't understand this statement. Judges apply the law. The law here is clear. I'd personally encourage the OP to take this further, through the charity rather than through the courts. They should not be selling electrical products that are not fully tested. Furthermore acting the maggot on returns detracts from goodwill - surely not something any charity wants.
OP if the charity are not forthcoming in helping get on to NCA and find out who to report this to. Notwithstanding any other issue selling faulty electrical items is extremely serious.
Jesus wept, judges consider the law and apply it with latitude for consideration and discretion. Not every crime ends in a conviction, not every SCC claim ends with a judgement. This is a charity shop where you buy things for buttons knowing they are second hand and have been discarded, the condition of virtually all goods sold there are sub optimal and don't come with warranties or guarantees. It's a charity shop, the odds in a SCC or NCA case would be stacked against you and rightly so.
Besides which Bepolite, the cost of making a claim in the SCC is €25, I suspect this is more than the item cost and if it isn't, OP really should have bought a new hair dryer if it cost more than this.0 -
Jesus wept, judges consider the law and apply it with latitude for consideration and discretion. Not every crime ends in a conviction, not every SCC claim ends with a judgement. This is a charity shop where you buy things for buttons knowing they are second hand and have been discarded, the condition of virtually all goods sold there are sub optimal and don't come with warranties or guarantees. It's a charity shop, the odds in a SCC or NCA case would be stacked against you and rightly so.
Is the op allowed mention.the name of the charity shop in question?0 -
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Jesus wept, judges consider the law and apply it with latitude for consideration and discretion. Not every crime ends in a conviction, not every SCC claim ends with a judgement. This is a charity shop where you buy things for buttons knowing they are second hand and have been discarded, the condition of virtually all goods sold there are sub optimal and don't come with warranties or guarantees. It's a charity shop, the odds in a SCC or NCA case would be stacked against you and rightly so.
Besides which Bepolite, the cost of making a claim in the SCC is €25, I suspect this is more than the item cost and if it isn't, OP really should have bought a new hair dryer if it cost more than this.
I'm sorry but there's almost nothing correct about anything in that post. Lets put aside the confusion between a civil and criminal court and cut to the chase. Judges interpret the law according to various interpretative tools. A literal interpretation is applied where it is appropriate, it's appropriate in the case of 90% of consumer rights. You have exactly the consumer rights set out in the Sale of Goods Acts and Liability for Defective Products Act. What do you have to back up your statement that there would be any odds stacked against anything?
If you read my post you would have seen I suggested steering clear of the courts - I'd especially steer clear of the Special Criminal Court - I think you mean the small claims procedure in the District Court. But now I'm also nitpicking.
How would you feel if it was your teenage daughter who ended up with burns after buying something from a charity shop thinking a) she got a bargain b) she was doing some good. Thankfully no one was hurt this time.0 -
I'm sorry but there's almost nothing correct about anything in that post. Lets put aside the confusion between a civil and criminal court and cut to the chase. Judges interpret the law according to various interpretative tools. A literal interpretation is applied where it is appropriate, it's appropriate in the case of 90% of consumer rights. You have exactly the consumer rights set out in the Sale of Goods Acts and Liability for Defective Products Act. What do you have to back up your statement that there would be any odds stacked against anything?
If you read my post you would have seen I suggested steering clear of the courts - I'd especially steer clear of the Special Criminal Court - I think you mean the small claims procedure in the District Court. But now I'm also nitpicking.
How would you feel if it was your teenage daughter who ended up with burns after buying something from a charity shop thinking a) she got a bargain b) she was doing some good. Thankfully no one was hurt this time.
You're gonna have to chill out on the legal stuff and apply a little bit of context and common sense. "interpret" is the important word, the rest is the usual "cracking a nut with a sledgehammer"0 -
You're gonna have to chill out on the legal stuff. You did get one thing right, interpret is the important word, the rest is the usual "cracking a nut with a sledgehammer"
How is speaking to the charities head office (for want of a better term) and reporting the faulty product to the NCA cracking anything with anything. Its the right thing to do. You started with the legal stuff - don't blame me if you get a bit of bite back when you don't know what you're talking about.
You could have made your point without quoting me and simply stating your opinion to the OP.
Next time it could be a dodgy DVD player thats fine for a few weeks and catches fire one night. I'm really surprised people are being so blasé about this.0 -
You started with the legal stuff - don't blame me if you get a bit of bite back when you don't know what you're talking about.
You could have made your point without quoting me and simply stating your opinion to the OP.
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Ah, read your own first post, "the law here is clear". I don't want a "to and fro" on this thread but, for Gods sake, apply a bit of context to the situation.0 -
Ah, read your own first post, "the law here is clear". I don't want a "to and fro" on this thread but, for Gods sake, apply a bit of context to the situation.
As I asked the person that made the first post, what context, wiggle room, interpretation, sympathy, moral compass etc do you think they can apply. I was leaving open the possibility people were not just resorting to hyperbole to make their point they didn't think people should be able to return stuff to a charity shop.
Taking any smugness out of it: Look at the recent debacle with Anthony Lyons. Judges are very constrained especially with very well settled law like our Sales of Goods act which are, in the main, over a century old.
As I've said I think people are missing the broader point here.
EDIT: While we're on the subject of context lets put the context to my post - The law here is clear. I'd personally encourage the OP to take this further, through the charity rather than through the courts.0 -
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Firstly I would like to thank you all for your contributions , big and small.
Now the headache of so many quotes dealt with :...
I am sure it made some people who never have to visit a charity shop laugh but it was off topic completely. This wasn't a pub talk conversation but was a serious thread. People tend to hate chuggers and avoid donating to charity through them- because of standards. Who keeps standards high if not consumers like myself who voice their concerns ?I didn't think that charity shops could sell electrical items due to WEEE, or it might just be individual policy.
I have seen electrical items in many charity shops. In this respect they can be no different from any second hand retailer. They inspect and test them before selling.To be honest, the item was purchased from a charity shop. I wouldn't be taking it any further.
I understand the mental and emotional pressure to let them get away with it [because those highly paid CEOs and chuggers etc need their commission *touch of sarcasm*] but it seems less than ''charitable'' to sell a product as working when in fact it doesnt. In fact there are stronger words for that kind of behaviour.
Perhaps if I had worded the question differently and said ''second hand retailer'' , I would have gotten less emotional responses ?
Would you not agree that Charity shop or not , nobody is entitled to make money without scruples and to sell a product described as working which doesn't and which is in fact dangerous ?No to the best of my knowledge they cannot sell electrical items because of WEEE regulations.
There is a rather large charity shop in the city centre which is 50% electrical goods. (This is not the store or brand which I have the issue with by the way)Having said that your girlfriend hardly paid a lot of money for the item and you know the money is going to charity so to be honest I'd chalk it down as a donation to said charity and go out and buy a decent one from a shop that sells them
Again...I understand the mental and emotional pressure to let them get away with it. Perhaps if I had worded the question differently and said ''second hand retailer'' , I would have gotten less emotional responses ?
Would you not agree that Charity shop or not , nobody is entitled to make money without scruples and to sell a product described as working which doesn't and which is in fact dangerous ? Chalking it off as a donation assumes I would choose that charity over another for my donations. It also seems to come across as ''a donation you cant refuse giving''. I find that notion kind of irritating. Nobody should have to run a gauntlet of moral judgements when trying to return a product which was falsely sold.Standard consumer rights should still apply, but the fact that they should never have sold it in the first place and I would assume the lack of a receipt (I've never been given one in a charity shop) means I suspect you'll just be wasting your time chasing it up.
We have a receipt. What are the standard consumer rights ?I'd treat it as a learning curve and don't purchase an electrical item from a charity again
Strangely theres a lot of negativity about charity shops. Not only about returning an item but also about having bought the item in the first place. it is almost as if people are feeling embarrassed to buy anything in one. Why shouldn't I expect a product from a charity shop to work as described ? People should expect to be treated properly in one as any other store. Logically speaking if they could sell anything they wanted without any returns or expected consumer standards, you would expect them to all close down as a significant proportion to half their customers would stop going there because of worsening standards.Mr. Incognito wrote: »Under the sale of goods acts goods sold or rented must have inherent qualities.
These do apply to second hand goods but the durability is not going to be expected
http://corporate.nca.ie/eng/Business...-to-consumers/
In short the expectation in a charity shop is that you are buying goods that someone else discarded for whatever reason. That's why the charity shop sells them for half nothing. You get a bargain and they do not warrant as to condition.
In short- taking a small claims court against the charity which the judge will likely throw out you have no come back.
Move on
People do give things to charity shops which are in perfect working order and condition. I have been giving very nice things to charity shops for well over a decade. Its not like I am Uncle Scrooge here rubbing my pennys and halfpennys together. Gimme a break lads lol. I just want to walk back into the store and nicely make them understand why they were wrong to sell me a faulty item as working and explain why it is legally and morally wrong to deny the right to return this item. I am a very moral person and I expect others I do business with to be moral too. If they want to sell me a faulty item they should mark it as ''faulty for parts only''. Someone else will take them to the cleaners if they try to e.g blow-dry a childs hair and it goes on fire, burns hair etc. This hair dryer is potentially dangerous.
I never considered taking a small claims court action against them but you have to understand that if staff are rude, ignorant or do not know how to treat customers then there is evidently a problem and I do not consider your employer to be some kind of sacred shield for shoddy standards. The product did not work from day 1. It was sold as working.I simply don't understand this statement. Judges apply the law. The law here is clear. I'd personally encourage the OP to take this further, through the charity rather than through the courts. They should not be selling electrical products that are not fully tested. Furthermore acting the maggot on returns detracts from goodwill - surely not something any charity wants.
OP if the charity are not forthcoming in helping get on to NCA and find out who to report this to. Notwithstanding any other issue selling faulty electrical items is extremely serious.
This is exactly my point of view expressed very clearly above ^^^EDIT: While we're on the subject of context lets put the context to my post - The law here is clear. I'd personally encourage the OP to take this further, through the charity rather than through the courts.
I can see you were getting a bit of slagging/to and fro debate for this attitude but I firmly agree with you. I came to the thread wishing to learn how to approach the staff about this. They already operate a returns policy apparently but according to them it is only for ''24 hours'' and the fact that the Hairdryer was faulty made no difference to their attitude. Now is this 24 hours limit which is advertised nowhere legal ? I dont expect charity shops to be breaking the law and I consider my customer feedback to be good for their industry and future goodwill etc. The hair dryer could easily cause burns on a small child. It is quite simply dangerous. People return things they don't need all the time to charity shops. I don't see why they have to feel guilty about it especially when in this case the item was faulty and not as described.0
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