Murder hate crime (blacks kill whites)

Nodin

jank wrote: »

I already made my points clear, care to answer rather than add one liners?
Want to wander away from your simple 'racism=poverty=crime' sum that has been debunked?

It hasn't as applied to African Americans which was the context in which it was used.

You seem to be implying a lack of work ethic amongst African Americans, which is appalling, and ignoring the level of poverty which leads to crime, hence the high murder rate.

PopePalpatine

creolebelle wrote: »

Seriously?
I think I'm going to take my exit

With a name like "Sonderkommando" you'd probably assume he's got nothing to contribute.

creolebelle

jank wrote: »

a) Then why do Asian earn more than white americans on average? I am genuinely curious here. Why do some minorities do so well and others terribly?

b) A panacea, god no. There is no utopia in the world. I just reject the narrative that often follows a discussion on race in the US. As I mentioned before, similar studies in Australia have found similar incidents of resume discrimination against non anglo names. Yet, we don't have Asians/middle-easterns and pacific islanders trying to outdo each other in the murder rate. Correlation does not equal correlation unless there is a direct link or study between the resume studies and the homicide rate.

A) the Asian model minority has been found to be a myth. White males are still the highest earners. It seems like you're deliberately being obtuse. The answer to your question was posted pages ago. Some minorities do better because they don't face the same obstacles that other minorities have to.
you can't compare the African Americans to Asian immigrants in Australia. A better comparison would be between african Americans and aborigines since the 2 groups have similar circumstances which is living under harsh oppressive society based on race that lasted for generations.

I remember reading that there is high crime rate in the aboriginal community. They also have a high rate of poverty and drug use.

The low murder rate in Australia can also be attributed to stricter gun laws

creolebelle

PopePalpatine wrote: »

With a name like "Sonderkommando" you'd probably assume he's got nothing to contribute.

Good point

jank

creolebelle wrote: »

Yes I am. It's a lot more complicated than just group a has better values than group b.
Poverty+racism=violent crime.
Lack of jobs causes people to turn to unsavory illegal activity

What is the evidence for this? Where is the evidence that in 2014 'systematic racism' causes the huge crime levels seen in the black community. As I mentioned racism was directed against many communities in the world and the US, yet most of the minorities have nowhere near the black crime level of the US of today.

Nodin

jank wrote: »

What is the evidence for this? Where is the evidence that in 2014 'systematic racism' causes the huge crime levels seen in the black community. As I mentioned racism was directed against many communities in the world and the US, yet most of the minorities have nowhere near the black crime level of the US of today.

....because the communities in the US, with the possible exception of the native Americans, have not experienced the same level of racism for the same period of time.

Carlos Orange

Nodin wrote: »

It hasn't as applied to African Americans which was the context in which it was used.

You seem to be implying a lack of work ethic amongst African Americans, which is appalling, and ignoring the level of poverty which leads to crime, hence the high murder rate.

That explanation seems to kinda ignore the fact there are way more poor white people in the US than poor black people.

Nodin

psinno wrote: »

That explanation seems to kinda ignore the fact there are way more poor white people in the US than poor black people.

But it's easier for a white person to get out of poverty (relatively speaking) than a 'black' person. You might be reviled as 'white trash' in your home state, but feck off up north and nobody knows or cares. Get on a train black however, and you'll be just as black getting off it.

jank

creolebelle wrote: »

A) the Asian model minority has been found to be a myth. White males are still the highest earners. It seems like you're deliberately being obtuse. The answer to your question was posted pages ago. Some minorities do better because they don't face the same obstacles that other minorities have to.
you can't compare the African Americans to Asian immigrants in Australia. A better comparison would be between african Americans and aborigines since the 2 groups have similar circumstances which is living under harsh oppressive society based on race that lasted for generations.

I remember reading that there is high crime rate in the aboriginal community. They also have a high rate of poverty and drug use.

The low murder rate in Australia can also be attributed to stricter gun laws

A) Can you care to show some resources that show white american males to out earn Asian Americans
The last census in 2006 shows that male Asian Americans medium income is higher than their white counterpart.
http://pubdb3.census.gov/macro/032006/perinc/new03_133.htm
There are differences depending on educational levels, some where whites do better, some where asians do better.

The aboriginal issue is more akin to native americans than african americans tbh. Aboriginals account for about 1% of the population and you are correct that there are issues here with that community in relation to poverty and crime. However, there are nowhere near the same crime levels in terms of violent crime like that in the US. True the gun controls are different, but most of these deaths happen by the way of illegal guns anyway.

In essence what you are saying is that the reason why 10% of black people in the US drop out of high school is due to systematic racism, i.e. racism in the public school system? Even with affirmative action?

Compare the drop out rate to 5% of white people. Hispanic people have a drop out rate of 22%, twice that of the black population. Yet, different crime statistics are evident in the three groups. Shouldn't hispanics be having it harder therefore?
http://www.infoplease.com/us/education/high-school-dropouts-race.html

jank

Nodin wrote: »

But it's easier for a white person to get out of poverty (relatively speaking) than a 'black' person. You might be reviled as 'white trash' in your home state, but feck off up north and nobody knows or cares. Get on a train black however, and you'll be just as black getting off it.

Simplistic nonsense tbh. Perpetuating the same tired narrative that has done huge harm to black americans.

jank

Nodin wrote: »

....because the communities in the US, with the possible exception of the native Americans, have not experienced the same level of racism for the same period of time.

I will use a favourite quote of yours. Correlation does not imply causation.

Nodin

jank wrote: »

Simplistic nonsense tbh. Perpetuating the same tired narrative that has done huge harm to black americans.

O do please then fill me in on the truth.

jank

Nodin wrote: »

O do please then fill me in on the truth.

"Stop talking about it"

Help!!!!

Nodin wrote: »

But it's easier for a white person to get out of poverty (relatively speaking) than a 'black' person. You might be reviled as 'white trash' in your home state, but feck off up north and nobody knows or cares. Get on a train black however, and you'll be just as black getting off it.

Are you American or have you lived in America?

Nodin

Help!!!! wrote: »

Are you American or have you lived in America?

Are you and have you?

Have you ever lived in China?

Are you in fact a space being?

What relevance does that have to the discussion?

Nodin

jank wrote: »

"Stop talking about it"

Not seeing how that relates, tbh.

Help!!!!

Nodin wrote: »

Are you and have you?

Have you ever lived in China?

Are you in fact a space being?

What relevance does that have to the discussion?

Well you seem to be shooting down every ones point of view on here that you are correct & they are wrong
If you are American or have lived in America then fair enough as you have seen it first hand.....just wanted to know if you were another worldly Irishman/woman whos never left the comforts of mummy & daddys house but knows everything about the world via their pc
Not trying to be rude

Nodin

Help!!!! wrote: »

Well you seem to be shooting down every ones point of view on here that you are correct & they are wrong
If you are American or have lived in America then fair enough as you have seen it first hand

I don't do anecdotes, generally speaking, so where I've been or not been is entirely irrelevant.

Help!!!! wrote: »

.....just wanted to know if you were another worldly Irishman/woman whos never left the comforts of mummy & daddys house but knows everything about the world via their pc
Not trying to be rude

Succeding admirably though.

Help!!!!

Nodin wrote: »

Succeding admirably though.

Don't think its rude to ask if someone has some first hand knowledge of the subject they seem very passionate about

Nodin

Help!!!! wrote: »

Don't think its rude to ask if someone has some first hand knowledge of the subject they seem very passionate about

....how could you have first hand experience of a nation of 300 million and what goes on there? That's why anecdotes are generally worthless.

Sand

creolebelle wrote: »

look at the case

I have. There's no evidence whatsoever to indicate Wilson was a racist, or that he shot Brown because he was black. Yet there are articles and opinion pieces, and speeches made by VIPs, which presume that because he was a white cop, and because the victim was black then it must be viewed as a racist killing.

On the other hand, a gang of black youths beat a white man to death in an unprovoked attack. Witnesses indicate there may have been a racial motive. The only killer jailed (for 90 days...I guess injustice is colour blind too) tries to introduce race as a motive in his defence. But its apparently ridiculous to consider it could be a racist killing for an otherwise motiveless crime despite all that. Presumably on the ground that only white people can be racists.

The same standard of evidence should apply. If no overt evidence of racist motivation is required in the Brown case to introduce racism as a cause, then no overt racist motivation is required in the McDonald's case to do the same.

jank

Nodin wrote: »

Not seeing how that relates, tbh.

Of course it relates. Many black people are sick of being treated differently by well meaning but foolish white people as if they need special help all the time. That was exactly his point. The sooner people drop the 'black' and 'white' the sooner racism goes away. If people talk about it all the time it will always be there.

Amazingfun

Stepdad of Marine Brutally Beaten in Parking Lot: ‘Painful Truth’ Is Media Would Care More If Races Were Switched

As his stepson remains in a medically induced coma following a vicious parking lot beating, Barry Reynolds told TheBlaze doctors have said there’s a “possibility” he may be forced to live out his days in a vegetative state. That’s why, he said, it’s frustrating to read news reports indicating that his stepson is in “fair condition,” because the surgeon maintains his situation is still “critical.”

Reynolds also alleged that the media would be much more interested in getting to the truth of the story if the races were switched.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/08/27/stepdad-of-marine-brutally-beaten-in-parking-lot-painful-truth-is-media-would-care-more-if-races-were-switched/

Poor man, truly horrible story

Amazingfun

Nodin

jank wrote: »

Of course it relates. Many black people are sick of being treated differently by well meaning but foolish white people as if they need special help all the time. That was exactly his point. The sooner people drop the 'black' and 'white' the sooner racism goes away. If people talk about it all the time it will always be there.

That's what they do in France. Evidently it doesn't quite work.

creolebelle

jank wrote: »

Of course it relates. Many black people are sick of being treated differently by well meaning but foolish white people as if they need special help all the time. That was exactly his point. The sooner people drop the 'black' and 'white' the sooner racism goes away. If people talk about it all the time it will always be there.

This is totally ridiculous. Not talking about racism will not make it go away.
You keep talking for black americans when you aren't black or even american.

creolebelle

Nodin wrote: »

That's what they do in France. Evidently it doesn't quite work.

This. Pretending to live in a color blind society will not make racism disappear. The ghettoes of the suburbs of Paris are proof of this.

jank

Nodin wrote: »

That's what they do in France. Evidently it doesn't quite work.

Ah, black french people = black american people. OK.

creolebelle

Sand wrote: »

I have. There's no evidence whatsoever to indicate Wilson was a racist, or that he shot Brown because he was black. Yet there are articles and opinion pieces, and speeches made by VIPs, which presume that because he was a white cop, and because the victim was black then it must be viewed as a racist killing.

On the other hand, a gang of black youths beat a white man to death in an unprovoked attack. Witnesses indicate there may have been a racial motive. The only killer jailed (for 90 days...I guess injustice is colour blind too) tries to introduce race as a motive in his defence. But its apparently ridiculous to consider it could be a racist killing for an otherwise motiveless crime despite all that. Presumably on the ground that only white people can be racists.

The same standard of evidence should apply. If no overt evidence of racist motivation is required in the Brown case to introduce racism as a cause, then no overt racist motivation is required in the McDonald's case to do the same.

*bangs head* The michael brown case is proof of excessive force used in low income black neighborhoods. It's a lot more complicated than white people being racist. It's about the deep rooted belief that black Americans are dangerous and violent which is present throughout this thread, I assume most the posters in here have had limited or no interaction with black Americans

creolebelle

jank wrote: »

Ah, black french people = black american people. OK.

You seem to think that Jews/Asians =black Americans
Nodin's point is that living in a so called blind society doesn't eliminate the problem of racism

jank

creolebelle wrote: »

This. Pretending to live in a color blind society will not make racism disappear. The ghettoes of the suburbs of Paris are proof of this.

So, you want equality but don't want to live in a society that is colour blind. That is an oxymoron.

jank

creolebelle wrote: »

This is totally ridiculous. Not talking about racism will not make it go away.
You keep talking for black americans when you aren't black or even american.

Does a doctor need to have cancer to treat it?

creolebelle

jank wrote: »

So, you want equality but don't want to live in a society that is colour blind. That is an oxymoron.

Denying inequality will not usher in a age of equality. I would love to live in a color blind country but I am wise enough to know that I don't

Nodin

jank wrote: »

Ah, black french people = black american people. OK.

Black French people, Muslims, Asians.......there is no distinction made, no official information gathered and it is illegal to do so and has been for decades. Yet there is racism in France - why?

Nodin

jank wrote: »

Does a doctor need to have cancer to treat it?

The last time I heard that was a priest explaining why they can give marriage advice despite being sworn celibates. No lie.

creolebelle

jank wrote: »

Does a doctor need to have cancer to treat it?

False analogy.
It's ridiculous that you somehow feel like you know more about the ills of my country and community when you don't live in it and are not member of my community
It's like me arguing with the members on here about being irish. It would be arrogant of me to do so

jank

creolebelle wrote: »

*bangs head* The michael brown case is proof of excessive force used in low income black neighborhoods. It's a lot more complicated than white people being racist. It's about the deep rooted belief that black Americans are dangerous and violent which is present throughout this thread, I assume most the posters in here have had limited or no interaction with black Americans

Em, the statistics are right here. Black people make up 13% of the population, make 50% of murder victims, 91% of those by other blacks. It is not a belief. Some black neighbourhoods have massive problems with crime that is no evident in other minority neighbourhoods. This is a fact, unfortunately.

Sand is right, there is no evidence that the Michael Brown case was racially motived, never mind what the media are telling you. The media tell naive people that blacks are in fear of their lives from the police, well they should be in fear of being killed by their own much more, yet this does not make a news story. How many young black men were killed in south Chicago the same week. Its ****ing tragedy and the sooner people stop talking around the issue and start talking truths and facts the sooner things can be improved.

creolebelle

jank wrote: »

Em, the statistics are right here. Black people make up 13% of the population, make 50% of murder victims, 91% of those by other blacks. It is not a belief. Some black neighbourhoods have massive problems with crime that is no evident in other minority neighbourhoods. This is a fact, unfortunately.

Sand is right, there is no evidence that the Michael Brown case was racially motived, never mind what the media are telling you. The media tell naive people that blacks are in fear of their lives from the police, well they should be in fear of being killed by their own much more, yet this does not make a news story. How many young black men were killed in south Chicago the same week. Its ****ing tragedy and the sooner people stop talking around the issue and start talking truths and facts the sooner things can be improved.

The black murder rate will not disappear without the proper analyzation of the cause. A high crime rate is seen in disenfranchised communities all over the world. Again you seem to be arguing that black Americans are innately violent and deserved to be brutalized by the police.
Yes the michael brown case is about race when black people are more likely to be killed by police than white people when they are often acting in the same manner or the white subjects were acting more aggressively compared to their black peers.
I have a lot of family members who work in the criminal justice system( cops and attorneys) and they all feel that police officers behave differently when dealing with black people

creolebelle

^^ Before the mass arrival of African Americans to Chicago it was the irish, Italians and Jews who were killing each other like flies: They were not part of mainstream american culture and lived in horrible conditions.
. The same pattern that is present in Chicago today.

jank

creolebelle wrote: »

Denying inequality will not usher in a age of equality. I would love to live in a color blind country but I am wise enough to know that I don't

Again, you want equality but you also want society to be not colour blind. A society that acknowledges peoples colour cannot be equal.

jank

Nodin wrote: »

Black French people, Muslims, Asians.......there is no distinction made, no official information gathered and it is illegal to do so and has been for decades. Yet there is racism in France - why?

There is racism in every country in the world, France or the US is no different. Do you want the french government to start dividing people into different races and classifying them so that they can treat them all differently. Is that your solution?
Are french minorities killing each other on the same scale as the US? Perhaps the french policy is working better than you think.

jank

creolebelle wrote: »

False analogy.
It's ridiculous that you somehow feel like you know more about the ills of my country and community when you don't live in it and are not member of my community
It's like me arguing with the members on here about being irish. It would be arrogant of me to do so

Enough about the ad hominem. What you are now trying to do is win an argument by stating the following.
a) I don't live in the US currently ( I did live there before) b) I am not an African American. Therefore my opinions are not as valid as an African American who lives in one of those suburbs we are talking about. This is again ironically reverse racism on your behalf.

This is a public discussion forum open to anyone and everyone. If you do not like your world view challenged then nobody is forcing you to read or participate. I have posted numerous statistics and facts regarding the disparity of incomes levels, crime levels and school drop out levels. You have not attempted at all to tackle any of them, instead you resort to ad-hominom described above. i.e playing the man not the ball.

RobYourBuilder

jank wrote: »

How many young black men were killed in south Chicago the same week. Its ****ing tragedy and the sooner people stop talking around the issue and start talking truths and facts the sooner things can be improved.

29 shot and 7 killed just that weekend alone.

R P McMurphy

jank wrote:

Of course it relates. Many black people are sick of being treated differently by well meaning but foolish white people as if they need special help all the time. That was exactly his point. The sooner people drop the 'black' and 'white' the sooner racism goes away. If people talk about it all the time it will always be there.

But the problem is they are different and their socioeconomic and environmental circumstances and very different. When you place a large number of people into housing projects with inadequate services and lack of access to resources there are going to be major issues and feelings of disenfranchisement. it is only a few generations since African Americans were sold openly on the streets as a commodity to be used and abused. It would be foolish to think that this would not result in systemic racism that lingers on. while not overtly racist anymore in policies it is the attitudes that need to catch up but that will be a longer process. We don't have to look very far to see the impact of attitudes like that as it created the conditions for armed conflict in Ireland in the not to distant past.

Shakespeare's Sister

jank wrote: »

Enough about the ad hominem. What you are now trying to do is win an argument by stating the following.
a) I don't live in the US currently ( I did live there before) b) I am not an African American. Therefore my opinions are not as valid as an African American who lives in one of those suburbs we are talking about. This is again ironically reverse racism on your behalf.

Nothing incorrect about that. It is staggeringly arrogant to claim to know how a group which you're not a member of feels.
It's like the geniuses who aren't Jewish saying Holocaust survivors/relatives of Holocaust survivors who feel uncomfortable with those Zara children's pyjamas (stripes, a star) need to get over it and not be so sensitive.

Corkfeen

jank wrote: »

So, you want equality but don't want to live in a society that is colour blind. That is an oxymoron.

Oh come on, you're not being treated equally when law enforcement are viewed as untrustworthy because they will shoot unarmed black people but not unarmed white people. When one is expected to go to greater lengths to get a job because of one's skin colour. But come on Jank, show us proof that racism is a creation of the liberal media agenda etc !

RobYourBuilder

Corkfeen wrote: »

Oh come on, you're not being treated equally when law enforcement are viewed as untrustworthy because they will shoot unarmed black people but not unarmed white people. When one is expected to go to greater lengths to get a job because of one's skin colour. But come on Jank, show us proof that racism is a creation of the liberal media agenda etc !

Ever hear of Dillon Taylor. Exact same situation as the Brown shooting. Except Taylor was white and the cop, black. Taylor was unarmed. But, unlike the Brown shooting; the media pretty much ignored it.

jank

Corkfeen wrote: »

Oh come on, you're not being treated equally when law enforcement are viewed as untrustworthy because they will shoot unarmed black people but not unarmed white people. When one is expected to go to greater lengths to get a job because of one's skin colour. But come on Jank, show us proof that racism is a creation of the liberal media agenda etc !

Is there empirical proof of this claim? Or are you just following the status que?
I acknowledge racism but don't follow blindly that the cause of black violence is itself racism. Why is racism the cause of young black men shooting each other?No one has proved that yet to me, only loose talk with a dollop of emotions.

jank

creolebelle wrote: »

The black murder rate will not disappear without the proper analyzation of the cause. A high crime rate is seen in disenfranchised communities all over the world. Again you seem to be arguing that black Americans are innately violent and deserved to be brutalized by the police.

Oh please, stop it with the hysterics. I never said such a thing and it displays more about you that you have to resort to such attacks to prove a point.

creolebelle wrote: »

Yes the michael brown case is about race when black people are more likely to be killed by police than white people when they are often acting in the same manner or the white subjects were acting more aggressively compared to their black peers.

Black people are more likely to be killed by other black people, this is a fact that you have never dispute but resort to roundabout arguments to try and dissemble.

creolebelle wrote: »

I have a lot of family members who work in the criminal justice system( cops and attorneys) and they all feel that police officers behave differently when dealing with black people

Anecdotal evidence is one of the reasons the US is in this mess. Anecdotal evidence is the reason why most black americans think office Wilson is guilt even though there is till a full investigation on going. It is amazing what wishful thinking does.

Nodin

jank wrote: »

There is racism in every country in the world, France or the US is no different. Do you want the french government to start dividing people into different races and classifying them so that they can treat them all differently. Is that your solution?
Are french minorities killing each other on the same scale as the US? Perhaps the french policy is working better than you think.

Odd that in previous posts you were complaining about riots and ghettos in France and now that it practices what you preach, you want to hold it up as an example of how to do things.