Formula 1 2014: Round 12 - Belgian Grand Prix

_rebelkid

Tea 1000

Myrddin wrote: »

Why not wait for DRS? It would have given him a clear speed advantage, Hamilton would have had to defend & only been allowed to move once, it would have been a straight piece of track rather than a chicane too. For "the smarter of the two" it would have seemed to make sense. But no, sure come up behind a car that's on the racing line through a chicane was his approach. Certainly makes you wonder.

Because a lap later he might not be as close. Strike while the iron is hot, take any opportunity that exists. He was right to attack, but wrong not to back out and avoid the collision.

Myrddin wrote: »

Yes they have, that's correct. But by & large, they still pick & choose their battles. Rosberg should have known who he was fighting & that yielding wasn't in Lewis' game plan...most fans would know that, let alone the drivers...and yet waiting for the DRS zone would have meant Nico would in all probability have taken 1st from Lewis with far, far less of a risk. It was a balsy move, but one which utterly failed at the expense of his title rival.

The highlighted part is exactly why he did it though. I know that what Rosberg did was wrong and unacceptable, but I know exactly why he did it. It's marking Hamilton's cards that he knows yeilding isn't part of Hamiltons plan, but he's making a statement to Hamilton that "two can play the 'no yeild' game plan".
Silly? Yes. Amateur? No, it was calculated. I would say that in his head he probably hoped for a wheel bang between them with no damage and continue racing with Hamilton aware of him hounding him, but either way, it was a silly move.

Myrddin wrote: »

I don't know, battle lines have been drawn now. Given the same situation with Lewis behind, all Lewis has to do is clip Nico's tire & nothing can be done about it. Lewis is his own worst enemy, & this will no doubt play into Nico's hands.

It'll be interesting to see the next few races. There was no point in Rosberg in making his little "statement" if he doesn't intend to follow up on it. However following the meeting, being a bit more sheepish for a race or two might be advised.

Myrddin wrote: »

The rich kid argument? Who's arguing it's the case? What I said was "He probably has inherited (through no fault of his own) the identity of the rich kid who grew up in Monaco too...something DC/EJ were saying maybe prevents people from identifying with him". Personally I think they have a point, he doesn't seem to attract many fans to the grandstands at all, & I don't recall spotting any Nico flags or anything. You have to wonder why that is.

I think it might explain the lack of fans, but it shouldn't explain the personality.

Tea 1000

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Even if he did say that I think its poor form for Hamilton to come out and say what was said in the meeting. It comes across as petty and it looks like he is doing his best to turn Rosberg into the bad guy. I don't understand why Lewis doesn't just shut up and let his driving do the talking.

Criticising management was his first mistake.
He doesn't shut up because he's not smart enough to.

ScumLord

Oblomov wrote: »

T
Did Hamilton move across, knowing that Rosberg would have to back off or brake, giving him the added distance to hold off Tosberg?

It was a silly position for Nico to be in, the collision that happened was probably one of the better outcomes that could have happened. If Hamilton had outbreaked himself going into the corner he could have slid across and completely wrecked both cars. It was always going to be a dangerous overtake. There wasn't really a way for the two cars to go through the chicane without contact or both cars losing pace to the cars behind.

Myrddin

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Even if he did say that I think its poor form for Hamilton to come out and say what was said in the meeting. It comes across as petty and it looks like he is doing his best to turn Rosberg into the bad guy. I don't understand why Lewis doesn't just shut up and let his driving do the talking.

Fully agree. He's the only loser in these mind games. He needs to put a smile on, & let the results do the talking. In his defense though, it seems like a long time ago now that he has been able to actually do that...be it car failures, & now being taken out...hard to deny he's had an absolutely rotten run of luck for a lot of this season. The fact he's only 29 points behind Nico is a miracle.

antodeco

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VIC2jRK4RA

Looking at it there, it really does look like Rosberg was caught out and went for the cut back. He was ahead of Hamilton at first, but on the cut back, there wasn't enough room. He probably could have braked and missed him, but equally, it does look like he just didn't want to run off the track.

Gillespy

By all accounts Hamilton came out of the meeting shocked with what he had heard. Nico viewed it as a chance to twist the knife and Hamilton was forced into a corner. I don't blame him for using the media, he probably feels he has nothing to lose by doing so. This season has been one step forward and two back for him so far. Is it now 5-1 in terms of failures? 3 -1 DNFs and 2 qualifications ruined by car failures. Rosberg's problems are trivial in comparison.

Myrddin

antodeco wrote: »

Looking at it there, it really does look like Rosberg was caught out and went for the cut back. He was ahead of Hamilton at first, but on the cut back, there wasn't enough room. He probably could have braked and missed him, but equally, it does look like he just didn't want to run off the track.

But at no point in that video was Rosberg ahead of Lewis. He tried to force his way into a gap that was never there. Plus the speed differential was massive on the straight given the slipstream...another lap would have seen him take the place in a much handier fashion (assuming he could have kept up, which I think he would have).

antodeco

Myrddin wrote: »

But at no point in that video was Rosberg ahead of Lewis. He tried to force his way into a gap that was never there. Plus the speed differential was massive on the straight given the slipstream...another lap would have seen him take the place in a much handier fashion (assuming he could have kept up, which I think he would have).

Apologies, I meant the better line/speed.

Oblomov

By Lightning:
Even if he did say that I think its poor form for Hamilton to come out and say what was said in the meeting. It comes across as petty and it looks like he is doing his best to turn Rosberg into the bad guy. I don't understand why Lewis doesn't just shut up and let his driving do the talking.

The problem, depends whose version you read as to what exactly was said.

It would appear that from Rosberg's comments Hamilton has construed an opinion as to the meaning.

Totally different interpretation to the, and we will never know, what wasw actually said or implied. The coverage, from national papers to TV stations, obviously an agency involved in getting the story aired.

Before the race Hamilton was credited with comment such as, "it's better to start in seconf place" and " i will slipstream thro Eau Rouge", very different from the reality.

Rosberg's comment " Hamilton is worrying too much other people"

We've all met people who will spin any situation to suit themselves. rember a Schumacher fan who was distraughr when Schury drove into Hill, but a week later had covinced himself that Hill was in the wrong.

Since Hamilton left both, Mclaren and his father as agent, he has chamged considerably.

_rebelkid

_rebelkid

So Hamilton fans are trying to get #BanRosberg trending on Twitter...


What utter f*ckwits.

_rebelkid

LIGHTNING wrote: »

If you really want to throw bleach in your eye just look at the comments on the Daily Mail article about this. You have been warned however :pac:

The stupid is actually painful.

christy c

Oblomov wrote: »

Did Hamilton move across, knowing that Rosberg would have to back off or brake, giving him the added distance to hold off Tosberg?

Is that what Hamilton fans are calling Nico now?

christy c

LIGHTNING wrote: »

To be fair its an excellent name to call him if you don't like him :pac:

Yeah I think Oblomov should patent it

Myrddin

I haven't read yet, but what has Hamilton come out & said about the meeting the team had?

_rebelkid

Myrddin wrote: »

I haven't read yet, but what has Hamilton come out & said about the meeting the team had?

Here's the full transcript.

Myrddin

_rebelkid wrote: »

Here's the full transcript.

Cheers, had a read of it there. We're a far cry from when they were banging shoulders congratulating each other earlier on in the season aren't we?

_rebelkid

There's a lot of people on Twitter saying that the "devious Nico is nowhere near the level of drivers like Our Lewis and Alonso"

That would be the Alonso that sat in the pit box for 30+ seconds to prevent his team mate from qualifying...

_rebelkid

Myrddin wrote: »

Cheers, had a read of it there. We're a far cry from when they were banging shoulders congratulating each other earlier on in the season aren't we?

Very. Although, that was never going to last...

Myrddin

_rebelkid wrote: »

There's a lot of people on Twitter saying that the "devious Nico is nowhere near the level of drivers like Our Lewis and Alonso"

That would be the Alonso that sat in the pit box for 30+ seconds to prevent his team mate from qualifying...

Sounds almost soccer-like doesn't it? Blind loyalty affects people in a lot of really stupid ways. You know the hardcore Irish types:

1) "Up the RA"
2) "Brits out!"
3) "Liverpool till I die!"

That type of ****e. Anyway, this shouldn't be allowed to become a witch hunt, I don't believe for a second the incident was an intentional move by Rosberg, where he set out to sabotage Lewis' race. It was a silly error he made, that's it. Vilifying him is just nonsense. The matter is over, the race is over, lets look forward to Monza is all I can say.

Gillespy

Whole lot of nothing from Rosberg there again. Toto pretty much corroborated Hamilton's version so that's good enough for me.

Oblomov wrote: »

Before the race hamilton was credited with comment such as, "it's better to start in seconf place" and " i will slipstream thro Eau Rouge", very different from the reality.

It was the reality last year and Vettel almost did it again yesterday.

ScumLord

The best thing about this years F1 line up is that there's so many drivers to follow. I don't have any loyalty to any particular driver, there's so much talent there it's pointless to get blinkered to one driver.

v3ttel

_rebelkid wrote: »

This sums it up nicely. These incidents happen all the time. We've seen them numerous times this season. Martin Brundle summed it up nicely. There is a 100% chance you'll damage your front wing, and a very small chance you'll give the other guy a puncture, unless you hit a very narrow, specific part of the tire.

It's a shame that it overshadows the outstanding drives by Ricciardo and Bottas.

_rebelkid

Thursday

Friday

Saturday

Sunday

v3ttel

Gillespy wrote: »

Whole lot of nothing from Rosberg there again. Toto pretty much corroborated Hamilton's version so that's good enough for me.

Toto wrote:

He thought it was for Lewis to leave him space, and that Lewis didn't leave him space.

So they agreed to disagree in a very heated discussion amongst ourselves, but it wasn't deliberately crashing. That is nonsense.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/115558

Gillespy

A Merc spokesperson said Hamilton's story was 'broadly accurate'.

This is what Tota said.
SSN reports that the Mercedes boss has confirmed Rosberg acknowledged "he could have avoided crashing but didn’t [in order to] make a point.”

Nothing there makes a liar out of Hamilton.

http://www1.skysports.com/f1/report/12472/9438702/toto-wolff-denies-nico-rosberg-crashed-on-purpose-but-admits-he-was-proving-point

_rebelkid

Gillespy wrote: »

A Merc spokesperson said Hamilton's story was 'broadly accurate'.

This is what Tota said.
SSN reports that the Mercedes boss has confirmed Rosberg acknowledged "he could have avoided crashing but didn’t [in order to] make a point.”

Nothing there makes a liar out of Hamilton.

http://www1.skysports.com/f1/report/12472/9438702/toto-wolff-denies-nico-rosberg-crashed-on-purpose-but-admits-he-was-proving-point

Well, Hamilton is saying Rosberg hit him deliberately, whereas Toto was saying Rosberg deliberately held his line. There is a distinction there.

Infoanon

Gillespy wrote: »

A Merc spokesperson said Hamilton's story was 'broadly accurate'.

This is what Tota said.
SSN reports that the Mercedes boss has confirmed Rosberg acknowledged "he could have avoided crashing but didn’t [in order to] make a point.”

Nothing there makes a liar out of Hamilton.

http://www1.skysports.com/f1/report/12472/9438702/toto-wolff-denies-nico-rosberg-crashed-on-purpose-but-admits-he-was-proving-point

Autosport quoted Toto as saying Nicos comments were misconstrued (by Lewis).

Frank Bullitt

Some painful reading on other forums and twitter from Hamilton fans, or anti-Rosberg fans, whatever way you want to view it.

Ghost Train

Think Lewis would have been better off not commenting on the meeting, uses it to have a go at Nico and didn't add much.

Lewis had the support of the team... but then he uses what was said in meeting to have a moan about Nico, Toto comes out and defends Nico to a certain extent saying "So they agreed to disagree in a very heated discussion amongst ourselves, but it wasn't deliberately crashing. That is nonsense."

Would kind of be funny now if Mercedes started using a few more team orders that ended up helping Nico secure the title... hopefully they'll still let them race

cadaliac

I can't see them being told to race as per "normal" any more. Maybe the info to the media might well be that there are no team orders but Toto doesn't strike me as the type to let things get out of hand in the Merc camp. I'd say Nico has achieved 2 things, whether he meant to or not....
1 - make Lewis think a second time before slamming the door and keeping the racing line when he is there and
2- invoked team orders.

The incident is done and dusted now but will that be playing in Hamiltons head when they both barge for the first corner in Monza? Will it have an effect?
The second point is that there are too many points to be dropped/won by two drivers on the one team. Its going to take team orders to keep both of them from tangling again but whether or not they will be obeyed is another argument.
Roll on Monza.

Autosport

Bring on Monza, going to be exciting to say the least

I for one don't want team orders brought back as it ruins racing

Corben Dallas

Rosberg is to blame for the incident, no doubt, left his nose in (holding his line – he has even said as much) and Lewis took racing line and got an insta-puncture, which effectively ended his race (because of damage from the tyre to his floor and time lost due to 3 mile drive back to pits.)

Rosberg seems to forget that the driver in front controls the racing line not the driver behind, he maybe should have got a penalty for this during the race. (tho the stewards are trying to let the drivers sort it on track)

Toto Wolff/Niki and Merc management seem to be hacked off that Nico cost them the win and caused their other car to retire. (effectively but not immediately) Both drivers have been told they can race but don’t take your team-mate out.

This incident is probably going to end the 'let them race' policy and will bring in some strict team orders, like race only after first pit stops, no do or die “knife between the teeth” overtakes for the first 5 laps, or hold positions when one driver is clearly ahead till the end of the race.

Anyone remember Schumi & Hill banging wheels (mainly Schumi doing the banging) same corner good few years ago?

Clever race again by Riciardo, got to the front and stayed there. Kimi starting showing the pace to push for podiums. Bottas got his now usual podium, had hoped the Williams would have show more outright pace compared to the Mercs.

Is Vettel going to win a race this year? Starting to be overshadowed consistently by his team-mate.


Magnasson pushed Button totally off track at Rivage, then did the same to Alonso a lap later, reports have said that the 20sec penalty (given after the race) was for forcing Alonso onto the grass on the Straight (>Kemel) if that is correct then it’s stepping over the mark and he could be facing race bans if he continues to drive like this.

Seem to recall he took Massa out first corner in Germany?

christy c

Corben Dallas wrote: »

Seem to recall he took Massa out first corner in Germany?

Don't mention the war! Can't remember if it was here or another site but there were pages upon pages of discussion. 50:50 for me, both at fault

Oblomov

Lauda's comments on leaving the meeting did not clarify the situation or the outcome of the meeting.

Then Hamilton only adds to the confusion. The claims of Rosberg being in his "blind spot". OK, as the contact was on extreme corners of left rear and right front. Rusberg was to one side of Hamilton. The rear view mirrors are of specific dimensions and fixed viewpoint. Hmmmm

During the media interview with Hamilton, a reporter comments that Hamilton had said Rosberg had apologised, which Hamilton immediately corrected.

The Sky interviews of Hamilton and Rosberg, the stark difference in the questions between the two drivers. The almost demeaning questions to Rosberg yet complete opposite for Hamilton. No wonder there is the animosity towards Rosberg. Who rightly states the fans should be aware of the rule book.

beanie10

I find it remarkable that nobody has mentioned that Hamilton put in a fastest lap in his first complete lap after getting the puncture replaced.
This leads me to believe that maybe his car was not as damaged as Hamilton stated.
How did he go from putting in that fastest lap to struggling in mid field in a car that is 2 seconds faster than closest rival.
Is this just more mind games and toy throwing from Hamilton?

v3ttel

Gillespy wrote: »

A Merc spokesperson said Hamilton's story was 'broadly accurate'.

This is what Tota said.
SSN reports that the Mercedes boss has confirmed Rosberg acknowledged "he could have avoided crashing but didn’t [in order to] make a point.”

Nothing there makes a liar out of Hamilton.

http://www1.skysports.com/f1/report/12472/9438702/toto-wolff-denies-nico-rosberg-crashed-on-purpose-but-admits-he-was-proving-point

Again, I fail to see how "Nico said he hit me deliberately" is corroborated by Toto saying "it wasn't deliberately crashing. That is nonsense" as per your earlier post. I can not understand how somebody can read those to comments and think they are not contradictory. It's completely incomprehensible unless you have somehow misread them or are a ridiculously biased fan of Lewis?

Also, there is a very big distinction between holding your line and feeling you are entitled to some space, and saying "I hit you on purpose".

If Rosborg thought he thought he was entitled to space is 100% wrong. Hamilton had the racing line and Rosborg should have backed off. However, Hamilton misrepresenting the comments in the meeting is also completely out of order. I feel Lewis would have been better off keeping his council and allowing the team to deal with it, rather than trying to stir the pot.

Frankie Lee

beanie10 wrote: »

I find it remarkable that nobody has mentioned that Hamilton put in a fastest lap in his first complete lap after getting the puncture replaced.
This leads me to believe that maybe his car was not as damaged as Hamilton stated.
How did he go from putting in that fastest lap to struggling in mid field in a car that is 2 seconds faster than closest rival.
Is this just more mind games and toy throwing from Hamilton?

Mercedes were not 2 seconds a lap quicker in the dry however and when he didn't tear through the field he lost heart fairly quick.

Gillespy

v3ttel wrote: »

Again, I fail to see how "Nico said he hit me deliberately" is corroborated by Toto saying "it wasn't deliberately crashing. That is nonsense" as per your earlier post. I can not understand how somebody can read those to comments and think they are not contradictory. It's completely incomprehensible unless you have somehow misread them or are a ridiculously biased fan of Lewis?

Also, there is a very big distinction between holding your line and feeling you are entitled to some space, and saying "I hit you on purpose".

If Rosborg thought he thought he was entitled to space is 100% wrong. Hamilton had the racing line and Rosborg should have backed off. However, Hamilton misrepresenting the comments in the meeting is also completely out of order. I feel Lewis would have been better off keeping his council and allowing the team to deal with it, rather than trying to stir the pot.

You're right, there is a contradiction there. But also in what Toto said. ''it wasn't deliberately crashing. That is nonsense'' and the bit from the Sky link "he could have avoided crashing but didn’t [in order to] make a point.” Now, some believe neither back up Hamilton but I think the latter does. There is also the broadly accurate comment.

Killinator

v3ttel wrote: »

Again, I fail to see how "Nico said he hit me deliberately" is corroborated by Toto saying "it wasn't deliberately crashing. That is nonsense" as per your earlier post. I can not understand how somebody can read those to comments and think they are not contradictory. It's completely incomprehensible unless you have somehow misread them or are a ridiculously biased fan of Lewis?

Also, there is a very big distinction between holding your line and feeling you are entitled to some space, and saying "I hit you on purpose".

If Rosborg thought he thought he was entitled to space is 100% wrong. Hamilton had the racing line and Rosborg should have backed off. However, Hamilton misrepresenting the comments in the meeting is also completely out of order. I feel Lewis would have been better off keeping his council and allowing the team to deal with it, rather than trying to stir the pot.

I assume he gained alot from having brand new tyres, but that advantage disappeared pretty quickly due to the damage on the car which would have increased ware on the tyres beyond the normal.

Frank Bullitt

Killinator wrote: »

I assume he gained alot from having brand new tyres, but that advantage disappeared pretty quickly due to the damage on the car which would have increased ware on the tyres beyond the normal.

Wasn't everyone on new tyres because of the wet qualy?

Frank Bullitt

Oblomov wrote: »

Rosberg also avoids making any derogatory remarks about Hamilton, even to the point that he downplays possible conflict. Most noticaable when asked about Hamilton, his response was to state they had known each other for years and after short period they would be talking to each other again.

Hamilton is the more media savvy of the two. Part of the training under Ron Dennis franchise, the complete media package schooled in both what to say and how to say it.

Rosberg comes across as the unassuming methodical driver, even in the Ice Bucket challenge, the two buckets were emptied over him, slight shrug and carried on as normal. The BBC pundits have stated that anyone who knows Rosberg personally says he is a good guy. His lifestyle is very low key in comparison with Hamilton. Rosberg seems to avoid the glare of publicity whereas Hamilton seeks and needs the glare of media attention. Almost wanting to be liked.

Tweeting the data comparing his car to Buttons a few years ago wasn't very savvy. I think Hamilton needs to speak more in public for himself, weather its the media just broadcasting him more than others or what, it almost seems like he needs the attention. Its not like the Lewis from a few years ago.

Corben Dallas

Wasn't everyone on new tyres because of the wet qualy?


Hamilton was first to pit (Lap 3) because of puncture, normal pit windows would'nt start happening until 13 at the earliest.

Myrddin

beanie10 wrote: »

I find it remarkable that nobody has mentioned that Hamilton put in a fastest lap in his first complete lap after getting the puncture replaced.
This leads me to believe that maybe his car was not as damaged as Hamilton stated.
How did he go from putting in that fastest lap to struggling in mid field in a car that is 2 seconds faster than closest rival.
Is this just more mind games and toy throwing from Hamilton?

Brand new tires
Strategy out the window, so in all likelihood was pushing harder than everyone else
Nico as the race leader had a damaged front wing
Then his messed up aero caused pre mature wear
The other cars were burning off fuel & getting lighter
Other cars strategies meant they were now pushing

Oblomov

When Rosberg had his contract extended and Hamilton was jumping up and down wanting his extended, did anything happen?

Jenson Button is now quoted as taking Hamilton's side.

walshb

I didn't catch all the details, but after the 2nd lap collision did Lewis' car and Nico's car have defects for the rest of the race because of the collision? Were the defects not fixable in a manner that could allow them both to challenge for the race?

mickdw

OSI wrote: »

Rosberg's front wing was damaged, and subsequently replaced at the first pit stop. The tyre carcass caused massive damage to Hamilton's floor, which can't be replaced during the race and pretty much ruined his aero set up.

Hamilton arguably caused the floor damage himself by driving too fast back to the pits.
Far too much being made of this.
Hamilton in the past has cut nico up running him off the track in borderline circumstances.
I don't think it was a bad idea to let Hamilton know that he was there. Will Make Hamilton more wary next time so can only play to Rosbergs advantage in the long run.
History suggests that all this crap blows over a
but the name on the trophy is remembered.

walshb

OSI wrote: »

Rosberg's front wing was damaged, and subsequently replaced at the first pit stop. The tyre carcass caused massive damage to Hamilton's floor, which can't be replaced during the race and pretty much ruined his aero set up.

I thought that Nico's fix wasn't great, in that he was having aero issues throughout the race. Is this true?

thirteen.

walshb wrote: »

I thought that Nico's fix wasn't great, in that he was having aero issues throughout the race. Is this true?

He damaged his front wing and then had it replaced. Unless he also damaged another part of the car in the contact with Lewis then he shouldn't have had any aero issues.