New Rule for eligibility to Away Opens

whitefoot

Thank You Dr Colossus.

My experience also is that this should have impacted Team events with Singles being the least of the problem.

"Q8. As an administrator at a Club which is running an Open Singles Qualifying
Competition, how can I confirm whether a player satisfies this new condition?
A8. You will be able to check each visitor’s Golfnet record to see whether he qualifies.
In addition, the GUI is working with the various software vendors to build in an
automatic check upon swiping of the Member Card. "

I cannot see each Open competition checking Golfnet for each entrant.
I notice this was passed in February 2014, has the automatic check been developed yet does anyone know?

alxmorgan

My two cents....

Applying to new members.....brainless. They can play 10 comps and still have to wait till following year. Beyond stupid.

Applying only to singles comps.....proves beyond doubt to me this has nothing to do with banditry.

Dublin Spur

in relation to the bandit issue,

has the number of distance members cleaning up in open competitions reached such levels that a rule needs to be intoduced at all ?

could it be a case of using a hammer to crack a nut ?

First Up

Dublin Spur wrote: »

in relation to the bandit issue,

has the number of distance members cleaning up in open competitions reached such levels that a rule needs to be intoduced at all ?

could it be a case of using a hammer to crack a nut ?

I speculated earlier in the thread that the handicap thing is just the smokescreen on this. The real objective is to rein in the clubs flogging distance memberships.

I still suspect that's the case.

SaveOurLyric

Dublin Spur wrote: »

in relation to the bandit issue,

has the number of distance members cleaning up in open competitions reached such levels that a rule needs to be intoduced at all ?

could it be a case of using a hammer to crack a nut ?

If it eliminates any at all then why not introduce it. If you want to crack a nut, and have a hammer, it will do a good job.

SaveOurLyric

alxmorgan wrote: »

My two cents....

Applying to new members.....brainless. They can play 10 comps and still have to wait till following year. Beyond stupid.

I think its a fine move. All for letting peoples handicaps settle by them playing more competitions, hopefully at their home club, before they are let loose into the wild of open comps. The same as for interclub.
The three cards is very lenient I think. At lease 5 would have been my preference.
And I'm not brainless.

Dr_Colossus

First Up wrote: »

I speculated earlier in the thread that the handicap thing is just the smokescreen on this. The real objective is to rein in the clubs flogging distance memberships.

I still suspect that's the case.

Suspect you're right but why not apply the requirement to team events also, makes no sense from either a handicap or distance membership curtailment aspect.
I'd suspect more team specialists cleaning up around the country are distance members so if the aim was to really hinder clubs selling distance membership packages then having a consistent rule would derail their membership uptake. At least with a singles competition your handicap is getting adjusted based on your performance in the competition so whether playing at home or away it doesn't have much if any impact on your handicap.

GreeBo

Dr_Colossus wrote: »

Suspect you're right but why not apply the requirement to team events also, makes no sense from either a handicap or distance membership curtailment aspect.
I'd suspect more team specialists cleaning up around the country are distance members so if the aim was to really hinder clubs selling distance membership packages then having a consistent rule would derail their membership uptake. At least with a singles competition your handicap is getting adjusted based on your performance in the competition so whether playing at home or away it doesn't have much if any impact on your handicap.

How do you handicap a team event though?
What possible criteria could they apply for team events?
Or do you just think that "Open" should cover all opens in the same way?

alxmorgan

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

I think its a fine move. All for letting peoples handicaps settle by them playing more competitions, hopefully at their home club, before they are let loose into the wild of open comps. The same as for interclub.
The three cards is very lenient I think. At lease 5 would have been my preference.
And I'm not brainless.

A couple of things on this....one is that I may be somebody who took a year off and am coming back into golf and it rules me out of opens for a year. I think that is a bit much especially when it doesn't rule me out of team comps.

The second thing is the letting them loose into the wild of opens idea. Are we saying now that it's ok for them to be "let loose" in their home club comps but not in opens ?

pete4pool

Just logged into Golfnet there. And there was a survey from the GUI waiting for me.
Questions like "What you think of the GUI" and alot to do with what we are talking about here.

This is good, hopefully this is an attempt to find out what the low level golfer wants.

blackwhite

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

If it eliminates any at all then why not introduce it. If you want to crack a nut, and have a hammer, it will do a good job.

In this case it appears that it won't do a whole lot to bandits, and the hammer is more likely to impact upon new genuine full members in 2015, who have to wait a year before they are allowed to enter opens.

blackwhite

GreeBo wrote: »

How do you handicap a team event though?
What possible criteria could they apply for team events?
Or do you just think that "Open" should cover all opens in the same way?

You require that, to enter a team event, a player must have fulfilled the singles criteria also.

At least it means that their handicap has been in some way monitored (however light-touch the monitoring may be).

GreeBo

blackwhite wrote: »

You require that, to enter a team event, a player must have fulfilled the singles criteria also.

At least it means that their handicap has been in some way monitored (however light-touch the monitoring may be).

I would go a little further, I think to enter any opens you must have played X singles competitions in the last year, be it at your home club or otherwise.

What X is I dont know, but I'd be thinking its at least 5.

Dr_Colossus

GreeBo wrote: »

I would go a little further, I think to enter any opens you must have played X singles competitions in the last year, be it at your home club or otherwise.

What X is I dont know, but I'd be thinking its at least 5.

+1 and this is the requirement for most interclub teams, can't see why they didn't adopt the same criteria for the open competitions instead of this new arbitrary rule/requirement.
The magic X number for interclub eligibility is generally 4 as per the Junior Cup requirement in the link below:

http://www.gui.ie/leinster/championship-documents/junior-cup/junior-cup-draw-metropolitan.aspx

"Competitors must have competed in at least four singles Qualifying Competitions in the previous calendar year. If a player changes his club
during the previous calendar year, it is his responsibility to produce evidence of four Qualifying Competitions."

That said 4 is quite low so wouldn't have any qualms if the requirement for interclub or open competitions was increased to a more rounded 5 or more. Most active members will have or at least should have played 10 singles competitions in the preceding year and their handicap will be more representative of their ability as a result (provided of course that they're somewhat honest players).

GreeBo

Dr_Colossus wrote: »

+1 and this is the requirement for most interclub teams, can't see why they didn't adopt the same criteria for the open competitions instead of this new arbitrary rule/requirement.
The magic X number for interclub eligibility is generally 4 as per the Junior Cup requirement in the link below:

http://www.gui.ie/leinster/championship-documents/junior-cup/junior-cup-draw-metropolitan.aspx

"Competitors must have competed in at least four singles Qualifying Competitions in the previous calendar year. If a player changes his club
during the previous calendar year, it is his responsibility to produce evidence of four Qualifying Competitions."

That said 4 is quite low so wouldn't have any qualms if the requirement for interclub or open competitions was increased to a more rounded 5 or more. Most active members will have or at least should have played 10 singles competitions in the preceding year and their handicap will be more representative of their ability as a result (provided of course that they're somewhat honest players).

Agreed, for interclub I think people should be playing way more than 4.
There cant be many valid reasons why you wouldnt be playing qualifying comps but would be picked for a team...other than the one with the Mexican overtones.

SaveOurLyric

GreeBo wrote: »

Agreed, for interclub I think people should be playing way more than 4.
There cant be many valid reasons why you wouldnt be playing qualifying comps but would be picked for a team...other than the one with the Mexican overtones.

Indeed. And good observation.
If someone is picked on a team and only had the 4 singles cards returned in the previous year, then not only is it clear that they are a 'robber or outlaw belonging to a gang and typically operating in an isolated or lawless area', but that the captain picking them knows this also and is picking them anyway (or is delighted to have such a merchant on his team). But hey, thats interclub handicap team golf - honesty left at home before putting on the club jumper.

SaveOurLyric

GreeBo wrote: »

I would go a little further, I think to enter any opens you must have played X singles competitions in the last year, be it at your home club or otherwise.

What X is I dont know, but I'd be thinking its at least 5.

I would go even further again. To be an entrant in even a home club singles competition you should have to have 4 qualifying scores submitted within the previous 12 months. (not the previous calender year, put them all in in a couple of weeks would be fine with me, and then start being a legit competitor again).

SaveOurLyric

blackwhite wrote: »

In this case it appears that it won't do a whole lot to bandits, and the hammer is more likely to impact upon new genuine full members in 2015, who have to wait a year before they are allowed to enter opens.

But whatever it does do to them is good. New genuine full members in 2015 having to wait a year is a trivial price to pay. In fact, its positive also. It ensures that new members have a least some handicap history before getting their 'licence' to compete in public.

grip n rip

Personally i joined my club as an associate member , reason for this is i find it extremely boring to play the same course over & over . I play 15-20 open comps per year , leaving €20-€30 at least in each club i visit . This silly rule will take hundreds of thousands of euro's out of golf clubs up and down the country & will push the working man further away from golf again .

Silly GUI over- reacting to the needs of a few stuffy dub clubs . Is the rule passed or only just proposed at the moment ?

Also i would argue to the folk who want open days curtailed how can you have a true handicap if you play the same course 90% of the time ? A true handicap i believe is built up by playing many courses over 1-2 years & returning a true card each time . Bandits will always be around , this rule change wont effect them one bit

SnowDrifts

grip n rip wrote: »

Personally i joined my club as an associate member , reason for this is i find it extremely boring to play the same course over & over . I play 15-20 open comps per year , leaving €20-€30 at least in each club i visit . This silly rule will take hundreds of thousands of euro's out of golf clubs up and down the country & will push the working man further away from golf again .

Silly GUI over- reacting to the needs of a few stuffy dub clubs . Is the rule passed or only just proposed at the moment ?

How very harsh of the GUI making you play 3 rounds at your home club.

slave1

grip n rip wrote: »

Personally i joined my club as an associate member , reason for this is i find it extremely boring to play the same course over & over . I play 15-20 open comps per year , leaving €20-€30 at least in each club i visit . This silly rule will take hundreds of thousands of euro's out of golf clubs up and down the country & will push the working man further away from golf again .

Silly GUI over- reacting to the needs of a few stuffy dub clubs . Is the rule passed or only just proposed at the moment ?

Also i would argue to the folk who want open days curtailed how can you have a true handicap if you play the same course 90% of the time ? A true handicap i believe is built up by playing many courses over 1-2 years & returning a true card each time . Bandits will always be around , this rule change wont effect them one bit

Great post mate, like you I hate playing the same course over and over again, after a few rounds in a row my game falls apart as I get bored quickly

grip n rip

SnowDrifts wrote: »

How very harsh of the GUI making you play 3 rounds at your home club.

Your completely missing my point mate . However to extend your point if i lived 3 hours from the club i joined as the original poster does , then this rule is indeed highly inconsiderate , why should you need to play a random number of rounds in your own club ? Its a free market - if i pay a club for membership & the gui my affiliation fee then i should be able to play where & whenever i choose .

FixdePitchmark

grip n rip wrote: »

Your completely missing my point mate . However to extend your point if i lived 3 hours from the club i joined as the original poster does , then this rule is indeed highly inconsiderate , why should you need to play a random number of rounds in your own club ? Its a free market - if i pay a club for membership & the gui my affiliation fee then i should be able to play where & whenever i choose .

A GUI handicap is not a fee market ?

There are very few markets that are free - most are controlled.

grip n rip

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

A GUI handicap is not a fee market ?

There are very few markets that are free - most are controlled.

Thats a matter of opinion at best

FixdePitchmark

grip n rip wrote: »

Thats a matter of opinion at best

It isn't - it is fact.

They are exerting control over something they control.

Just because people want a cheap - handy handicap. Doesn't mean they can get it ?

They have to do what they consider is best for the sport across the country.

They don't have to do something - just because you want it.

First Up

I would go a step further and make the three competitive rounds a condition of continued club membership - not just for a "travelling" handicap. Membership of a club should bring some responsibilities as well as privileges. Turning up a few times a year to support the club that has been good enough to allow you join is not unreasonable.

SaveOurLyric

grip n rip wrote: »

Its a free market - if i pay a club for membership & the gui my affiliation fee then i should be able to play where & whenever i choose .

But thats the very point against what you are saying. It is a free market. And a market made by GUI golfers, through their clubs, through the GUI. If they decide they dont want you to play where and whenever you choose with a GUI handicap not based on the home club model that is their structure, then too bad. They form their union, and make their rules. And are entitled to do so. If you dont like it, they can, say, 'take it or leave it'. Or form your own golfing union, with its handicaps, and build courses for its members to play on, by the rules that suit you.

grip n rip

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

But thats the very point against what you are saying. It is a free market. And a market made by GUI golfers, through their clubs, through the GUI. If they decide they dont want you to play where and whenever you choose with a GUI handicap not based on the home club model that is their structure, then too bad. They form their union, and make their rules. And are entitled to do so. If you dont like it, they can, say, 'take it or leave it'. Or form your own golfing union, with its handicaps, and build courses for its members to play on, by the rules that suit you.

Ok lads ye're just getting silly now , fact is under european law i could join a club in poland and as long as i pay gui their cut i could play any open day i choose . All this rule will do is make lads bunch together and share a handicap

FixdePitchmark

grip n rip wrote: »

Ok lads ye're just getting silly now , fact is under european law i could join a club in poland and as long as i pay gui their cut i could play any open day i choose . All this rule will do is make lads bunch together and share a handicap

What do you mean share - :eek:

grip n rip

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

What do you mean share - :eek:

One lad gets full membership but 3-4 lads pitch in and share the number to play various opens

SaveOurLyric

grip n rip wrote: »

Ok lads ye're just getting silly now , fact is under european law i could join a club in poland and as long as i pay gui their cut i could play any open day i choose . All this rule will do is make lads bunch together and share a handicap

For getting silly. You have nailed it yourself.

FixdePitchmark

grip n rip wrote: »

One lad gets full membership but 3-4 lads pitch in and share the number to play various opens

Well that is just cheating. Actually that is putting that as best I can.

Look, all sports have rules. All sports change rules.

If lads are getting handicaps cheap - just playing opens. Eventually there will be no clubs for opens.

There is a cost associated with Golf - It is an expensive sport to keep going.

As golfers we should feel like giving a little back.

If you don't want to give anything back - head off to Poland so.

grip n rip

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

For getting silly. You have nailed it yourself.

I agree its silly no doubt about it but under law its also true .

SaveOurLyric

grip n rip wrote: »

I agree its silly no doubt about it but under law its also true .

Can you refer us to the Regulation or Directive that substantiates this 'fact' ?

I know the answer. But still, have a go.

grip n rip

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Well that is just cheating. Actually that is putting that as best I can.

Look, all sports have rules. All sports change rules.

If lads are getting handicaps cheap - just playing opens. Eventually there will be no clubs for opens.

There is a cost associated with Golf - It is an expensive sport to keep going.

As golfers we should feel like giving a little back.

If you don't want to give anything back - head off to Poland so.

I totally agree its cheating and wrong and everything else but why do you think people join clubs which charge €100-€200 ? Its because they cant afford the high membership most clubs still ask for . All im saying here is i dont agree with this new rule and it will cost a lot of clubs a lot if money and thus is detrimental to the health of the game in this country .

FixdePitchmark

grip n rip wrote: »

I totally agree its cheating and wrong and everything else but why do you think people join clubs which charge €100-€200 ? Its because they cant afford the high membership most clubs still ask for . All im saying here is i dont agree with this new rule and it will cost a lot of clubs a lot if money and thus is detrimental to the health of the game in this country .

I wouldn't say all are doing it because they can't afford it.

A good few are just doing it because it is cheap.

SaveOurLyric

grip n rip wrote: »

I totally agree its cheating and wrong and everything else but why do you think people join clubs which charge €100-€200 ? Its because they cant afford the high membership most clubs still ask for . All im saying here is i dont agree with this new rule and it will cost a lot of clubs a lot if money and thus is detrimental to the health of the game in this country .

Is a view probably promulgated by those benefitting from the current 'loophole'. But not held, clearly, by those who dont benefit from it and disagree with your view. And they are the ones making, and entitled to make, the rules. So they are more than likely correct. The credibility of the opinion of those losing out in the change is pretty weak given their obvious bias.

First Up

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

Is a view probably promulgated by those benefitting from the current 'loophole'. But not held, clearly, by those who dont benefit from it and disagree with your view. And they are the ones making, and entitled to make, the rules. So they are more than likely correct. The credibility of the opinion of those losing out in the change is pretty weak given their obvious bias.

The longer this thread goes, the stronger the case for the GUI to crack down hard on the abuse of the system and on those who exploit the goodwill of real club members.

grip n rip

First Up wrote: »

The longer this thread goes, the stronger the case for the GUI to crack down hard on the abuse of the system and on those who exploit the goodwill of real club members.

Are you less of a club member if you choose to play your golf at other course open days ?

SaveOurLyric

grip n rip wrote: »

Are you less of a club member if you choose to play your golf at other course open days ?

Yes. If the core of your golf is not at your 'club', then how could you call yourself a 'club member'. You are simply using them as a conduit to a GUI handicap and taking your golf elsewhere. So certainly not a true member. More a cuckoo.

grip n rip

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

Yes. If the core of your golf is not at your 'club', then how could you call yourself a 'club member'. You are simply using them as a conduit to a GUI handicap and taking your golf elsewhere. So certainly not a true member. More a cuckoo.

So the fact i pay the same as everybody else but use my right to choose where i play makes me less of a member ?

First Up

grip n rip wrote: »

So the fact i pay the same as everybody else but use my right to choose where i play makes me less of a member ?

If you have no involvement with your “club“ - yes.

grip n rip

First Up wrote: »

If you have no involvement with your “club“ - yes.

Im afraid i totally disagree

First Up

grip n rip wrote: »

Im afraid i totally disagree

The signs are that you have good reason to be afraid and not before time.

grip n rip

First Up wrote: »

The signs are that you have good reason to be afraid and not before time.

The amount of looking down the nose , snobbery on here is a surprise , its also the reason why the so called "big clubs" are now asking gui to amend rules in their favour . Still im sure the "not real members" like me will find a way around it goodnight

Goldenjohn

grip n rip wrote: »

Are you less of a club member if you choose to play your golf at other course open days ?

If you are only an associate or distance member you are less of a club member than a Full member hence why you pay less

First Up

Goldenjohn wrote: »

If you are only an associate or distance member you are less of a club member than a Full member hence why you pay less

The technical term is parasite.

charlieIRL

First Up wrote: »

The technical term is parasite.

that's a bit harsh.

First Up

charlieIRL wrote: »

that's a bit harsh.

If the cap fits......

GreeBo

Point has been made, I think we can leave the technical definitions there for now.