New Rule for eligibility to Away Opens

SaveOurLyric

Not quite yet please.

They are not parasites. The term is beyond harsh, and in fact, incorrect. They were fully legitimately using a facility that the golfing world allowed them to. So those opting for the distance/opens choice cannot be faulted.

Specific clubs, clubs in general, and the GUI inaction let a situation develop, amplified by the pressures of the recent economic downturn following a boom in golf membership and course numbers, that was not in their interest.

They are now limiting the interest in such a golfing choice. Legitimately also.

bobster453

Watch this space.This rule is totally unworkable and impossible to police without all sorts of connotations..not least of which is data protection.
An ill thought out decision that will be allowed to die a quiet death.
The GUI must surely agree with the above as it is now mid september and no notification has been given to any club on how to implement and monitor this rule going forward.
Again watch this space..you read it here first.

GreeBo

Data Protection?
Would seem pretty easy to make it a condition of GUI membership.

dk1982

I only joined a new club a few weeks ago and since getting my handicap I've played in 2 club competitions (an open comp and presidents prize). Does this rule mean I have to play another club competition in the next 2 weeks or I wont be allowed play open comps in away clubs next year? I haven't been notified of this by my club.

SnowDrifts

bobster453 wrote: »

Watch this space.This rule is totally unworkable and impossible to police without all sorts of connotations..not least of which is data protection.
An ill thought out decision that will be allowed to die a quiet death.
The GUI must surely agree with the above as it is now mid september and no notification has been given to any club on how to implement and monitor this rule going forward.
Again watch this space..you read it here first.

Data protection? You're having a laugh. Next time I swipe into the computer for an open comp and my handicap information comes up i'm going to demand that it's taken down immediately as it's a breach of the Data Protection Act.

alxmorgan

dk1982 wrote: »

I only joined a new club a few weeks ago and since getting my handicap I've played in 2 club competitions (an open comp and presidents prize). Does this rule mean I have to play another club competition in the next 2 weeks or I wont be allowed play open comps in away clubs next year? I haven't been notified of this by my club.

Yes

And this is a major part of the issue right here. Lack of clarity. You should absolutely have been informed of this. Wouldn't surprise me if if was put back a year due to issues such as this

SnowDrifts

dk1982 wrote: »

I only joined a new club a few weeks ago and since getting my handicap I've played in 2 club competitions (an open comp and presidents prize). Does this rule mean I have to play another club competition in the next 2 weeks or I wont be allowed play open comps in away clubs next year? I haven't been notified of this by my club.

I thought most clubs require you to play in 3 qualifying comps before playing in a President's prize.....

When you say you played in an open competition... you mean at your home club? Anyway... you need 3 qualifying rounds at your home club to play in any away open next year.

dk1982

SnowDrifts wrote: »

I thought most clubs require you to play in 3 qualifying comps before playing in a President's prize.....

When you say you played in an open competition... you mean at your home club? Anyway... you need 3 qualifying rounds at your home club to play in any away open next year.

Yes, it was an Open comp at my home club. As for your first point, that must not be a requirement in my club.

SaveOurLyric

alxmorgan wrote: »

You should absolutely have been informed of this.

Why ? As long as he is informed before he tried to play in an open next year it would be fine from the GUI side. Frustrating for him of course, but then the rule is not being made for the convenience of people on the borderline, or outside it, of playing in opens next year.

I'd say most clubs have a clue yet about this coming down the line anyway.

alxmorgan

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

Why ? As long as he is informed before he tried to play in an open next year it would be fine from the GUI side. Frustrating for him of course, but then the rule is not being made for the convenience of people on the borderline, or outside it, of playing in opens next year.

I'd say most clubs have a clue yet about this coming down the line anyway.

I just think if you are changing the rules of something you have an obligation to inform people

SaveOurLyric

alxmorgan wrote: »

I just think if you are changing the rules of something you have an obligation to inform people

I do agree. But I wouldnt expect them to really.
Observing that the motivation they are coming from is a 'lets stop people playing in opens who dont have enough cards in the year before' one, and not a 'lets encourage people to put in cards so they can play in opens' one. So their perspective is not one of helping those who they are setting out to curtail.

dk1982

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

I do agree. But I wouldnt expect them to really.
Observing that the motivation they are coming from is a 'lets stop people playing in opens who dont have enough cards in the year before' one, and not a 'lets encourage people to put in cards so they can play in opens' one. So their perspective is not one of helping those who they are setting out to curtail.

From my perspective ive only been a member a few weeks so have only had time to play in 2 qualifying home comps so far. Its not the scenario where ive been a member all year and just played away opens , so i'm now rushing to get 3 cards in. So, I think I probably should have been informed really.

GreeBo

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

I do agree. But I wouldnt expect them to really.
Observing that the motivation they are coming from is a 'lets stop people playing in opens who dont have enough cards in the year before' one, and not a 'lets encourage people to put in cards so they can play in opens' one. So their perspective is not one of helping those who they are setting out to curtail.

I would actually disagree slightly.
I think the rule is more like "lets stop people who wouldnt normally have played 3 in the previous year"
Same point though, rule is worthless if everyone heads off for 2 weeks to get them all in.

alxmorgan

GreeBo wrote: »

I would actually disagree slightly.
I think the rule is more like "lets stop people who wouldnt normally have played 3 in the previous year"
Same point though, rule is worthless if everyone heads off for 2 weeks to get them all in.

Will that not make it worthless next year then when everyone does know ?

GreeBo

alxmorgan wrote: »

Will that not make it worthless next year then when everyone does know ?

I think "worthless" is a bit strong, there will be some who give up the distance membership as they deem it not worth it, who knows what they bring in next year too.
Also a years worth of opens without these people may shed some interesting results.

bobster453

I think this motion was disingenuous to say the least.Between this and gsr's effecticely it is saying the handicap system is wrong and we dont trust handicap secretarys to do their job properly.
Imo this motion was all about the expectation that members of clubs some distance from their home will give up that membership to join a club closer to home for the convenience of not having to travel to play three cards.
I believe time will show this not to be the case.People will just stop playing altogether if their local clubs are more expensive than their distance one denying the gui the benefit of their sub

dk1982

Just to clarify with this rule...so a person who has never been a member of a golf club before, joins a club in January 2015, gets his handicap after handing in his 3 cards, but will not be allowed to play in open comps at away clubs until 2016 (presuming he has played at least 3 qualifying comps at his home club in 2015)?

alxmorgan

dk1982 wrote: »

Just to clarify with this rule...so a person who has never been a member of a golf club before, joins a club in January 2015, gets his handicap after handing in his 3 cards, but will not be allowed to play in open comps at away clubs until 2016 (presuming he has played at least 3 qualifying comps at his home club in 2015)?

Yes and this is my biggest issue with it.

dk1982

alxmorgan wrote: »

Yes and this is my biggest issue with it.

Same here. Surely that's a bit self defeating and will put alot of people off joining clubs i.e. people will just stick to cheap green fees on teetimes.ie etc rather than fork out to join a club if they're not going to be able to avail of the perk of being able to play in open comps on other courses. As i said earlier I joined a club a few weeks ago (not just so i could play in open comps on away courses btw...my home course is 10 minutes from my house so I'll be playing very regularly there), but if I had waited until January and then found out about this new rule then i may have reconsidered.
By the way I'm not saying bandits should be given a free ride at all, I'm just saying I dont think this is the way to do it.

GreeBo

dk1982 wrote: »

Same here. Surely that's a bit self defeating and will put alot of people off joining clubs i.e. people will just stick to cheap green fees on teetimes.ie etc rather than fork out to join a club if they're not going to be able to avail of the perk of being able to play in open comps on other courses. As i said earlier I joined a club a few weeks ago (not just so i could play in open comps on away courses btw...my home course is 10 minutes from my house so I'll be playing very regularly there), but if I had waited until January and then found out about this new rule then i may have reconsidered.
By the way I'm not saying bandits should be given a free ride at all, I'm just saying I dont think this is the way to do it.

It will only impact people who were planning on joining a club and playing most of their golf somewhere else imo, which is what its trying to address.

To me its the exact same as inter club and most club comps where you cant win in your first year.

m r c

Being allowed to play in away opens is a privalage not a right.

So play away in your home club for 1 year or pay green fees if you want to see other courses. Jeeze no one died.

SaveOurLyric

bobster453 wrote: »

Between this and gsr's effecticely it is saying the handicap system is wrong and we dont trust handicap secretarys to do their job properly.

Not the case.
- the handicap system has been refined
- we trust handicap secretaries to do their job one they are provided with the raw material of a scoring history by the players they are regulating

SaveOurLyric

alxmorgan wrote: »

Yes and this is my biggest issue with it.

I'm fine with it. Its just a once-off collateral damage to a tiny majority in the context of a bigger picture. Too bad.

Dr.Rieux

m r c wrote: »

Being allowed to play in away opens is a privalage not a right.

So play away in your home club for 1 year or pay green fees if you want to see other courses. Jeeze no one died.

While I don't see an issue with the rule, should there be a slight membership reduction for the first year? In the first year you would be getting less for your membership fee.

Clubs like Athlone have an introductory discount for the first year (and second I think), so perhaps they should have some privileges removed?

Unfortunately despite what I had hoped, it will be next year at the earliest before I can get membership so it will put me in the position of not being able to play opens. However, having not played competitive golf up until this point I don't know what I'm missing out on so am happy enough to wait a year until opens.

alxmorgan

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

I'm fine with it. Its just a once-off collateral damage to a tiny majority in the context of a bigger picture. Too bad.

This is the kind of attitude which harms the game IMHO. Game is already struggling and now we have a too bad attitude thrown in on top. Once-off it may be but sometimes that it all it takes to lose people to the game.

SaveOurLyric

alxmorgan wrote: »

Once-off it may be but sometimes that it all it takes to lose people to the game.

If thats the cost of an an overall benefit to the game then its a price deemed worth paying.
Remember, the rule is to address an abuse of the system that the majority of golf club members want curtailed - the exploitation of the open day by those for whom it was not intended (dodgy unmonitored handicaps if you wish, and/or, with a subtext of freeloaders not paying their way for access to competitive GUI golf on good golf courses, take your pick).

alxmorgan

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

If thats the cost of an an overall benefit to the game then its a price deemed worth paying.
Remember, the rule is to address an abuse of the system that the majority of golf club members want curtailed - the exploitation of the open day by those for whom it was not intended (dodgy unmonitored handicaps if you wish, and/or, with a subtext of freeloaders not paying their way for access to competitive GUI golf on good golf courses, take your pick).

That would be fine if you are losing the right people (or the wrong people in this case). Seems lazy to not come up with a rule that allows those for whom opens were intended - full club members - to play in them. And yes I know its only the first year but a year is a long time if all your mates play in them and you can't or you are a solo golfer a lot of the time and need opens to be able to play away courses bar on your lonesome.

m r c

Golf and the irish golfing public need to cut the ****, if everyone joined this Tipp course or wherever the hell it is thats offering cheap membership golf in Ireland falls apart end of. This attitude of i cant afford full membership but how can i swing it cheaper with the least possible impact to me is bollocks.

If u are buying your GUI card for under a couple hundred euro or less and playing all your local courses when they have opens you are taking the piss.

Golf is expensive, get over it and you have zero entitlement to have it provided to you at less than cost price.

I'm wondering if getting rid of the "open day" altogether wouldn't be a great move. Sod it. Pay to play locally, play interclub or pay green fees. The idea of paying less for opens comes from the idea that you are supporting your local golf club already and the host club was giving you a reduction as gratuity.

dk1982

m r c wrote: »

Golf and the irish golfing public need to cut the ****, if everyone joined this Tipp course or wherever the hell it is thats offering cheap membership golf in Ireland falls apart end of. This attitude of i cant afford full membership but how can i swing it cheaper with the least possible impact to me is bollocks.

If u are buying your GUI card for under a couple hundred euro or less and playing all your local courses when they have opens you are taking the piss.

Golf is expensive, get over it and you have zero entitlement to have it provided to you at less than cost price.

I'm wondering if getting rid of the "open day" altogether wouldn't be a great move. Sod it. Pay to play locally, play interclub or pay green fees. The idea of paying less for opens comes from the idea that you are supporting your local golf club already and the host club was giving you a reduction as gratuity.

You sound like you have serious anger issues. Take a holiday or something chief. Your blood pressure must be through the roof.

Dr.Rieux

m r c wrote: »

Golf and the irish golfing public need to cut the ****, if everyone joined this Tipp course or wherever the hell it is thats offering cheap membership golf in Ireland falls apart end of. This attitude of i cant afford full membership but how can i swing it cheaper with the least possible impact to me is bollocks.

If u are buying your GUI card for under a couple hundred euro or less and playing all your local courses when they have opens you are taking the piss.

Golf is expensive, get over it and you have zero entitlement to have it provided to you at less than cost price.

I'm wondering if getting rid of the "open day" altogether wouldn't be a great move. Sod it. Pay to play locally, play interclub or pay green fees. The idea of paying less for opens comes from the idea that you are supporting your local golf club already and the host club was giving you a reduction as gratuity.

That is different to joining your local club for the first time in 2015. Many people agree, and have agreed on thread, that stopping distance membership abuse is a good thing. But, is stopping full members of their local club from playing these opens a good thing all because they weren't a member last year?

m r c

Dr.Rieux wrote: »

That is different to joining your local club for the first time in 2015. Many people agree, and have agreed on thread, that stopping distance membership abuse is a good thing. But, is stopping full members of their local club from playing these opens a good thing all because they weren't a member last year?

Agreed two separate issues totally and i have sympathy for anyone in that position. Stopping full local members playing opens locally seems like its something of an unintended consequence or that they are collateral damage as it were.

m r c

dk1982 wrote: »

You sound like you have serious anger issues. Take a holiday or something chief. Your blood pressure must be through the roof.

Lol

Look I'm pure fed up of people trying to justify this distance membership thing thats all.
What ever way i misrepresented my blood pressure or not doesn't effect my point.

Dr.Rieux

m r c wrote: »

Agreed two separate issues totally and i have sympathy for anyone in that position. Stopping full local members playing opens locally seems like its something of an unintended consequence or that they are collateral damage as it were.

I suspect you're right there, although I say now it shouldn't affect me, it probably will, so hopefully there's something there in the rule for new members next year :P

GreeBo

Dr.Rieux wrote: »

That is different to joining your local club for the first time in 2015. Many people agree, and have agreed on thread, that stopping distance membership abuse is a good thing. But, is stopping full members of their local club from playing these opens a good thing all because they weren't a member last year?

If its the first club then I have no problem, it takes a year at least to confirm a handicap is "correct".
If they were in another club and didnt play the 3 rounds last year then I still dont see an issue, why werent they playing?

GreeBo

dk1982 wrote: »

You sound like you have serious anger issues. Take a holiday or something chief. Your blood pressure must be through the roof.

dk1982 please do not make personal attacks against a poster.

Dr.Rieux

GreeBo wrote: »

If its the first club then I have no problem, it takes a year at least to confirm a handicap is "correct".
If they were in another club and didnt play the 3 rounds last year then I still dont see an issue, why werent they playing?

Should there be a reduced membership fee for the first year? As you would be getting less for the fee.

Or make opens cost the same as a standard green fee. No more playing other courses on the cheap.

GreeBo

Dr.Rieux wrote: »

Should there be a reduced membership fee for the first year? As you would be getting less for the fee.

Or make opens cost the same as a standard green fee. No more playing other courses on the cheap.

Why?
The are getting the same from the club that everyone else is getting.
Its a condition of membership to the GUI.


Its akin to horse racing where trainers keep a good horse secret until the gold cup and then make a killing on it before they are properly handicapped.

Dr.Rieux

GreeBo wrote: »

Why?
The are getting the same from the club that everyone else is getting.
Its a condition of membership to the GUI.


Its akin to horse racing where trainers keep a good horse secret until the gold cup and then make a killing on it before they are properly handicapped.

As part of a membership you get GUI membership, for a fee. This membership entitles you to play in open competitions. If you are immediately disqualified from opens should you GUI membership cost the same?

A fixed number of home qualifying comps in the previous 12 months, not calendar year, would do similar for handicap purposes would it?

First Up

Dr.Rieux wrote: »

As part of a membership you get GUI membership, for a fee. This membership entitles you to play in open competitions. If you are immediately disqualified from opens should you GUI membership cost the same?

A fixed number of home qualifying comps in the previous 12 months, not calendar year, would do similar for handicap purposes would it?

You get your GUI membership for a reduced fee. Getting reduced benefits is a perfectly reasonable quid pro quo.

SaveOurLyric

dk1982 wrote: »

You sound like you have serious anger issues. Take a holiday or something chief. Your blood pressure must be through the roof.

He is on the money in the main though.

The proliferation of opens in recent time though is really just showing the demand for reduced greenfees but just not allowing the whole world in on the reduction. Keeps the riffraff off the courses but allows the real golfers to enjoy other courses. The original idea of the 'open week'. The change is just nudging it back in that direction a little and is a good thing imo.

SnowDrifts

Dr.Rieux wrote: »

A fixed number of home qualifying comps in the previous 12 months, not calendar year, would do similar for handicap purposes would it?

No... I would assume one of the reasons for the qualifying rounds having to take place during the previous calendar year is to allow for end of season handicap reviews.

SaveOurLyric

Dr.Rieux wrote: »

That is different to joining your local club for the first time in 2015. Many people agree, and have agreed on thread, that stopping distance membership abuse is a good thing. But, is stopping full members of their local club from playing these opens a good thing all because they weren't a member last year?

I think it still is, in that it ensures some period of handicap history to be built up iunder the supervision of a club. Not unfair to be trying to restore some credibility to the handicap system. Wait a year. Big deal.

alxmorgan

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

I think it still is, in that it ensures some period of handicap history to be built up iunder the supervision of a club. Not unfair to be trying to restore some credibility to the handicap system. Wait a year. Big deal.

My issue here is though it does not restore credibility to the system as it has no affect on team comps which are, I would argue generally accepted, the bigger issue.

And it is not strange that I can compete in my home club after 3 cards but have to wait a year on away courses even though the handicap system does handle singles scores correctly and automatically ?

SaveOurLyric

alxmorgan wrote: »

My issue here is though it does not restore credibility to the system as it has no affect on team comps which are, I would argue generally accepted, the bigger issue.

And it is not strange that I can compete in my home club after 3 cards but have to wait a year on away courses even though the handicap system does handle singles scores correctly and automatically ?

It doesnt cure cancer either, but not being a cure for all ills doesnt mean a step in the right direction isnt better than nothing. Its a small tweak sure. But I'll take it. Dont get me started on the corruption of team comps.........

Dr.Rieux

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

I think it still is, in that it ensures some period of handicap history to be built up iunder the supervision of a club. Not unfair to be trying to restore some credibility to the handicap system. Wait a year. Big deal.

There have been two arguments for this, one about the handicaps which this helps. And another about the cost of entry to golf. On the cost this is just a reversal, ie more privileges less cash, albeit at a smaller scale.

I think bandits will still find a way no matter what and not so sure if this will help a huge amount. It will inconvenience bandits who are distance members, but maybe they will be selective about higher value opens then to make up for the inconvenience. I am assuming they are the type of people who won't let this stop them.

bmc58

Your H/C could be suspended if you don,t play the 3 rounds at your "home club".
And then you won't be able to play anywhere in those Opens.

bmc58

Simple to do.On the players H/c record there's a box the H/C can tick "Handicap Suspended".The next time Club records are sent off to Golf Net the players card will not be accepted anywhere.

bmc58

Those type of "Clubs" wouldn't last long.

bobwilliams

dk1982 wrote: »

You sound like you have serious anger issues. Take a holiday or something chief. Your blood pressure must be through the roof.

100% agree and what a load if horse****e, get rid of the open days??? Jesus wept he needs an economics lesson on top of everything else

geeksauce

In relation to people joining clubs for the first time in 2015 why couldn't they bring in an allowance to the rule whereby if they play in 3 qualifying comps at their home club during 2015 they can then be activated to play in open comps in other clubs.

This would remove the unfairness of not being able to play in away open comps for a year and would encourage people to play comps at home at the earliest available time which should result in them becoming more involved with their own club and playing more often there too.