Beef in Crisis

tomwaterford

Mad4simmental wrote: »

Completely agree with you, but we should be getting a bigger slice of the pie.

im not saying you shouldn't (actually agreeing with ye-beef factories are particulary ruthless)

what im saying is....if they is a huge pick/over supply it is inevitable they will pay as low a figure as possible
if supply is low...price rises...if supply high price decreases...its economics


this issue will never end properly until the issue of supply and demand is met...pickets at factories/mcdonalds/dail/ploughing championships...will only temperaly fix it at best
the only way to solve it...will need another large factory to open/exporter get going/or find some other use for the cattle

sandydan

Roundbale wrote: »

He was a lovely Judge alright.

do you think anything different would happen this time ,probably with added embargo preventing organisation involved from dissolving without court permission this time,wonder would members be liable in that case.

TUBBY

Heres a idea that might be worth exploring for the protests.

have the poster boys in the protest.
my example would be the lad in all the McDonalds adds and on posters in all their takeaways protesting outside it. Would send out a message.

same for the lads Tesco, aldi and lidl have everywhere as the suppliers/ we are farmers friends type stuff.

at the very least it would stop them trotting out the ads for a while.

Base price

TUBBY wrote: »

Heres a idea that might be worth exploring for the protests.

have the poster boys in the protest.
my example would be the lad in all the McDonalds adds and on posters in all their takeaways protesting outside it. Would send out a message.

same for the lads Tesco, aldi and lidl have everywhere as the suppliers/ we are farmers friends type stuff.

at the very least it would stop them trotting out the ads for a while.

TBH I have no problem with Aldi, Lidl or McD's TV advertising campaign. They are proud to sell quality Irish beef and I, as a farmer, am proud to produce same. They at least are buying Irish unlike some other outlets/restaurants who are using imported products.
Re Tesco - they seem to be the tail that is wagging the dog :mad:
So I go back to a previous post of mine earlier today where I stated that my problem is with the inactivity of the IFA for nearly a year.
They are the main farming organisation in Ireland who receive 50% of their funding directly from farmers, 35% directly from the sale of farming produce. 85% of their funding comes from the agri sector. Well it used too!!

Damo810

Mad4simmental wrote: »

Completely agree with you, but we should be getting a bigger slice of the pie.

Which is what I tried to outline above, it's not simply supply demand, we're getting screw over either way.

Damo810

Mad4simmental wrote: »

Just a thought,

Would a big protest/rally at this years ploughing match be any good???

Thousands of people over three days, plenty of cameras and non farming people to.

Plenty of farmers go to it so it should be easy to get support & educate people as to what is happening.

If we can't organise sumthing there, well we couldn't get a ride in a Hure house.

Posts like this is why I said to another poster in Pm, is exactly we need to keep this topic going. Initiative. Nice to see someone come up with ideas.

Only thing is, if we protest at the ploughing who are we protesting against? If it's the factories, do we target solely them or do we target the public with info? Will it have an effect? (I dont go to the ploughing, so I'm asking you lads, would it have any measurable effect?)

whelan2

tomwaterford wrote: »

im not saying you shouldn't (actually agreeing with ye-beef factories are particulary ruthless)

what im saying is....if they is a huge pick/over supply it is inevitable they will pay as low a figure as possible
if supply is low...price rises...if supply high price decreases...its economics


this issue will never end properly until the issue of supply and demand is met...pickets at factories/mcdonalds/dail/ploughing championships...will only temperaly fix it at best
the only way to solve it...will need another large factory to open/exporter get going/or find some other use for the cattle

is this not where bord bia dept of ag should come in, looking for new markets? Thankfully at least you are listening to me, if the projected cattle figures for food harvest 2020 are to be achieved there must be a profitable market for these cattle. If prices can not be achieved now what will it be like then?

tvo

The only type of protest that may work is to withdraw supply of beef from the factories.this could be done if all farm organisations supported the move.unlikely to bite the hand that feeds and all that so not likely to happen.

TUBBY

Damo810 wrote: »

Posts like this is why I said to another poster in Pm, is exactly we need to keep this topic going. Initiative. Nice to see someone come up with ideas.

Only thing is, if we protest at the ploughing who are we protesting against? If it's the factories, do we target solely them or do we target the public with info? Will it have an effect? (I dont go to the ploughing, so I'm asking you lads, would it have any measurable effect?)

great idea. All parties in one place.

1 the factories tents. Last year they were seemingly ****ting it that there would be any negative publicity.

2 bor bia tent. 12c bonus is becoming a joke with recent figures showing how few qualify. Also the whole thing on farm being qa but only paying then on certain cattle.. If i send 20 cattle to factory and only get qa bonus on 12, does that mean the meat from the other 8 cant have the "from a qa bor bia farm" type thing on it. Of course it will be labelled as qa.

3 FG tent.

on another point, how are the mechanical graders calibrated. Most people i know are disappointed with grades. Are the graders independently inspected daily. A machine is only as good as the way it is set up. If you are calibrating a machine and also it is in your interest to pay as little as possible.......

Abfg

TUBBY wrote: »

great idea. All parties in one place.

1 the factories tents. Last year they were seemingly ****ting it that there would be any negative publicity.

2 bor bia tent. 12c bonus is becoming a joke with recent figures showing how few qualify. Also the whole thing on farm being qa but only paying then on certain cattle.. If i send 20 cattle to factory and only get qa bonus on 12, does that mean the meat from the other 8 cant have the "from a qa bor bia farm" type thing on it. Of course it will be labelled as qa.

3 FG tent.

on another point, how are the mechanical graders calibrated. Most people i know are disappointed with grades. Are the graders independently inspected daily. A machine is only as good as the way it is set up. If you are calibrating a machine and also it is in your interest to pay as little as possible.......

I agree with all the above but we need to look at a long term view and have a total seperation between farming groups and factories. You cannot have the factories financing the organisation that is supposed to be representing us against them!!!!!!!

Abfg

tvo wrote: »

The only type of protest that may work is to withdraw supply of beef from the factories.this could be done if all farm organisations supported the move.unlikely to bite the hand that feeds and all that so not likely to happen.

We need to shut down all factories and marts, the suggestion above is a good idea but you will always get the sneeky bastards that will be drawing cattle at night and doing deals behind everyone's back!

Kevin the sheep

Abfg wrote: »

We need to shut down all factories and marts, the suggestion above is a good idea but you will always get the sneeky bastards that will be drawing cattle at night and doing deals behind everyone's back!

Agree also but what about the people who are stuck for money and need to offload cattle kids in school/collage esb oil food etc if we blocked for two weeks or more there is a lot of people who would come under pressure also if people knew this was goining to happen would there not be a massive kill the week befor the protest ?

Willfarman

Base price wrote: »

TBH I have no problem with Aldi, Lidl or McD's TV advertising campaign. They are proud to sell quality Irish beef and I, as a farmer, am proud to produce same. They at least are buying Irish unlike some other outlets/restaurants who are using imported products.
Re Tesco - they seem to be the tail that is wagging the dog :mad:
So I go back to a previous post of mine earlier today where I stated that my problem is with the inactivity of the IFA for nearly a year.
They are the main farming organisation in Ireland who receive 50% of their funding directly from farmers, 35% directly from the sale of farming produce. 85% of their funding comes from the agri sector. Well it used too!!

They needed an mandate from the ordinary farmer members. And I get no sense of pride from processors and retailers making money off my back. Not giving a **** if I survive or not, and then advertising to irish consumers claiming that they are supporting me! Do you bring the missus to mcdonalds for a floppy burger base price after a spot of fencing to feel the pride?

Muckit

Abfg wrote: »

We need to shut down all factories and marts!

Whatever about the factories, marts should be kept out of this imo. If any of them went under we would be screwed altogether.

Hootanany

Why dont you set up your own network for selling Beef cut out the middle man.

whelan2

Hootanany wrote: »

Why dont you set up your own network for selling Beef cut out the middle man.

was just looking at an ad in yesterdays irish indo, Achill mountain lamb, whole lamb butchered , boxed 99 euro + 15 euro delivery nationwide. www.calveysofachill.com interesting idea and not costing a bomb either. Could something similar be done for beef?

epfff

SDontp your own nwhatsk not possible with money and regulations

Can the store men please stop calling for blockades as they obviosuly Dont understand regulation for killing and the reality of running a high turnover capital intensive business

Is their any finisher here that wants a blockade?

Abfg

Muckit wrote: »

Whatever about the factories, marts should be kept out of this imo. If any of them went under we would be screwed altogether.

Until our gob****e of a minister brings in legislation to stop Larry owning feedlots and factories(similar to the US) we have to stop him by cutting off the supply to both. We never had a better opportunity, rumoured all the sfp is out in October and everyone has loads of fodder. It's time to make a stand it could be our last.

Base price

Willfarman wrote: »

They needed an mandate from the ordinary farmer members. And I get no sense of pride from processors and retailers making money off my back. Not giving a **** if I survive or not, and then advertising to irish consumers claiming that they are supporting me! Do you bring the missus to mcdonalds for a floppy burger base price after a spot of fencing to feel the pride?

So it took nearly a year to get a mandate and in the meantime the factories continued to reap the financial rewards on the backs of us farmers.
Farmer Pudsey put up a thread a few weeks ago asking how many people would be finishing beef this winter. The majority of people said that either they would not be or would have reduced numbers. A lot of farmers/finishers are in serious debt due to the carry on by the factories. The factories have managed to wipe out a number of farmers/finishers and will capitalise on this by expanding their own feed lots and controlling prices/kill rates yet again.
Lidl, Aldi and McD's could easily use imported meat but they don't. They support Irish produce and without that support beef prices would be really fecked. Their advertising campaigns at least promotes Irish beef and are far better than Bord Bia's efforts.
And yes, I occasionally go to McD's for a burger & fries with OH and am proud that I know I am eating Irish beef.

rangler1

Base price wrote: »

Well someone is telling porkies so.
According to the handout in the IFJ a couple of weeks ago, funding comes from three sources a) 35% from EIF levy, b) 50% from membership fees and c) 15% other income sources such as FBD Trust and IFA Member Services.
So if I read the figures correctly 50% of funds comes directly from memberships i.e. farmers.
.

Think you 're pleading ignorance here to suit you. Posters on here are accusing us of being influenced by the levy, and I'm saying the farmers like myself that work for IFA have very little to do with organising the funding of IFA.
I've never gone round selling membership even, that's how much I'm worried about the funding of IFA

Base price

Willfarman would it not be fairer to say that the reason there was no IFA action prior to this is due to the fact that the factories were not prepaired to discuss the matter while the cattle kill numbers were high and they could capitalise financially.
Now that the numbers are down the factories will hold token discussions to appease farmers, IFA and Minister of Ag. It will be interesting to see what the outcome of these discussions will be and for how long any proposals remain in place.

Base price

rangler1 wrote: »

How many times do I have to tell you that very few of the farmers in IFA have any thing to do with funding of the organisation.

rangler1 wrote: »

Think you 're pleading ignorance here to suit you. Posters on here are accusing us of being influenced by the levy, and I'm saying the farmers like myself that work for IFA have very little to do with organising the funding of IFA.
I've never gone round selling membership even, that's how much I'm worried about the funding of IFA

No not pleading ignorance just responding to the statement that you made in your post. In fairness it reads quite differently from what your intention was.

Willfarman

Base price wrote: »

Willfarman would it not be fairer to say that the reason there was no IFA action prior to this is due to the fact that the factories were not prepaired to discuss the matter while the cattle kill numbers were high and they could capitalise financially.
Now that the numbers are down the factories will hold token discussions to appease farmers, IFA and Minister of Ag. It will be interesting to see what the outcome of these discussions will be and for how long any proposals remain in place.

I don't know. It's plausible I think yes.
We hadn't many chips to bargain with in the spring with cattle eating ad lb meal.
However in June I felt we had and I contacted wexford ifa and was told there was no appetite among farmers to tackle the issue of feedlots and price I posted on this at the time.
They waited until the horse bolted I suppose. Now after a price has collapsed further if it recovers a bit it will be called a rise and everyone is happy again. We will live on the pride that the retailers instill in Us while they make fortunes!

rangler1

Base price wrote: »

So it took nearly a year to get a mandate and in the meantime the factories continued to reap the financial rewards on the backs of us farmers.
Farmer Pudsey put up a thread a few weeks ago asking how many people would be finishing beef this winter. The majority of people said that either they would not be or would have reduced numbers. A lot of farmers/finishers are in serious debt due to the carry on by the factories. The factories have managed to wipe out a number of farmers/finishers and will capitalise on this by expanding their own feed lots and controlling prices/kill rates yet again.
Lidl, Aldi and McD's could easily use imported meat but they don't. They support Irish produce and without that support beef prices would be really fecked. Their advertising campaigns at least promotes Irish beef and are far better than Bord Bia's efforts.
And yes, I occasionally go to McD's for a burger & fries with OH and am proud that I know I am eating Irish beef.

Henry burns and his committee have done everything possible, and If farmers carry on the way they are they'll get no farmers to take up positions in IFA,, why would anyone be bothered, beef farmers wouldn't even support our protests....pathetic
You tell us we should honour supermarkets that stock our beef, even though they rip us off in the process...equally pathetic

Willfarman

Base price wrote: »

So it took nearly a year to get a mandate and in the meantime the factories continued to reap the financial rewards on the backs of us farmers.
Farmer Pudsey put up a thread a few weeks ago asking how many people would be finishing beef this winter. The majority of people said that either they would not be or would have reduced numbers. A lot of farmers/finishers are in serious debt due to the carry on by the factories. The factories have managed to wipe out a number of farmers/finishers and will capitalise on this by expanding their own feed lots and controlling prices/kill rates yet again.
Lidl, Aldi and McD's could easily use imported meat but they don't. They support Irish produce and without that support beef prices would be really fecked. Their advertising campaigns at least promotes Irish beef and are far better than Bord Bia's efforts.
And yes, I occasionally go to McD's for a burger & fries with OH and am proud that I know I am eating Irish beef.

If they can import beef and get a better return on it I think they would have no problem in doing so.

Base price

rangler1 wrote: »

Henry burns and his committee have done everything possible, and If farmers carry on the way they are they'll get no farmers to take up positions in IFA,, why would anyone be bothered, beef farmers wouldn't even support our protests....pathetic
You tell us we should honour supermarkets that stock our beef, even though they rip us off in the process...equally pathetic

We never received any text informing us that about protests been held at supermarkets. I have no problem attending such protests (work commitments aside). I supported the blockade at Kepak Clonee back in the day.
I do not agree that Henry Burns and his committee have done everything possible. In my opinion they only got going a few weeks ago and should have been more proactive earlier in the year.
I do agree with you about not blockading the factories, aside from the possible litigation factor. Farmers cannot hold onto stock indefinitely and to ask them to do so would be unfair.

rangler1

Base price wrote: »

We never received any text informing us that about protests been held at supermarkets. I have no problem attending such protests (work commitments aside). I supported the blockade at Kepak Clonee back in the day.
I do not agree that Henry Burns and his committee have done everything possible. In my opinion they only got going a few weeks ago and should have been more proactive earlier in the year.
I do agree with you about not blockading the factories, aside from the possible litigation factor. Farmers cannot hold onto stock indefinitely and to ask them to do so would be unfair.

Henry has been working on this since the start, Eddie was at meetings about it even before he became president, nothing was going to change until farmers stopped throwing cattle at factories
There was lot going on earlier in the year, a few protests were arranged, but were badly supported, a huge amount of texts went out for those, Your branch chairman and delegates would be notified about the supermarket protests.
All your questions would have been answered if you were in Castlerea last Thurs, there's another meeting in Tullamore next week I think

sandydan

Willfarman wrote: »

If they can import beef and get a better return on it I think they would have no problem in doing so.

question , are you sure its beef from where ever it says on label , some doubt it and beef used on packets marked as QA on label seems to support this allegation,if producer isn't paid as QA for animal. this raises further question is imported beef blended into product from QA certified farms that isn't paid for as Qa product to cover their tails and imo its not checked either . if it was how did horsemeat get past inspections till found in food products.

Base price

sandydan wrote: »

question , are you sure its beef from where ever it says on label , some doubt it and beef used on packets marked as QA on label seems to support this allegation,if producer isn't paid as QA for animal. this raises further question is imported beef blended into product from QA certified farms that isn't paid for as Qa product to cover their tails and imo its not checked either . if it was how did horsemeat get past inspections till found in food products.

I know there was an issue over the origins of some pork sold in butcher outlets but I never heard of an issue with Bord Bia labelled food. A pretty serious allegation.
http://www.agriland.ie/news/half-pigmeat-products-butchers-irish/

coolshannagh28

sandydan wrote: »

question , are you sure its beef from where ever it says on label , some doubt it and beef used on packets marked as QA on label seems to support this allegation,if producer isn't paid as QA for animal. this raises further question is imported beef blended into product from QA certified farms that isn't paid for as Qa product to cover their tails and imo its not checked either . if it was how did horsemeat get past inspections till found in food products.

That's a fair point is the QA animal streamed onto a specific QA processing line after slaughter , The last time I killed cattle in the factory I asked for the pre slaughter weight so I could work out a killout % and they looked at me as if I had two heads . A lot of sharp practise goes on in there and although horsemeat has cleaned it up a bit because of retailer inspections the farmer ultimately pays .

Base price

TUBBY wrote: »

on another point, how are the mechanical graders calibrated. Most people i know are disappointed with grades. Are the graders independently inspected daily. A machine is only as good as the way it is set up. If you are calibrating a machine and also it is in your interest to pay as little as possible.......

Very valid point. I wonder what QMS is in place. Are the mechanical graders checked regularly by a Approved Authority.
We had a dispute with a factory in 2012 over a grading issue on a double of cattle. We phoned them the afternoon to see how the killed. When we heard what they graded we instructed the factory manager to hold the carcasses for us to inspect. Next morning we went to have a look at them. Factory manager tried to spin us all sorts of ****e excuses about fat scores. OH and I have been too long in this game to take such crap.
I asked to see mechanical grader out of interest and also been the bitch that I can be from time to time :eek:
In fairness the manager brought us to see it. I brought his attention to the fact that some of the long florescent type bulbs were last installed (in the case of 5 bulbs) in May 2011. The instillation date was written in black marker at the end of each bulb. I asked him how many hours (as per the manufacturer specifications) were the bulbs accurate working life. He could not answer me, nor could he answer what Approved Authority checked and calibrated the machine.
After that we had a really nice chat in his office and he re-adjusted the prices.
A few days later I sent a query to our Dept asking them about the calibration of mechanical grading machines. To date I have never received a reply.

TUBBY

Base price wrote: »

Very valid point. I wonder what QMS is in place. Are the mechanical graders checked regularly by a Approved Authority.
We had a dispute with a factory in 2012 over a grading issue on a double of cattle. We phoned them the afternoon to see how the killed. When we heard what they graded we instructed the factory manager to hold the carcasses for us to inspect. Next morning we went to have a look at them. Factory manager tried to spin us all sorts of ****e excuses about fat scores. OH and I have been too long in this game to take such crap.
I asked to see mechanical grader out of interest and also been the bitch that I can be from time to time :eek:
In fairness the manager brought us to see it. I brought his attention to the fact that some of the long florescent type bulbs were last installed (in the case of 5 bulbs) in May 2011. The instillation date was written in black marker at the end of each bulb. I asked him how many hours (as per the manufacturer specifications) were the bulbs accurate working life. He could not answer me, nor could he answer what Approved Authority checked and calibrated the machine.
After that we had a really nice chat in his office and he re-adjusted the prices.
A few days later I sent a query to our Dept asking them about the calibration of mechanical grading machines. To date I have never received a reply.

basically had the same issue. Load went and when i heard grades, i went sort of ape and swore no cattle of mine would stand there again. Anyway, went over and in the meantime, the carcasses had been regarded manually. Cant remember exactly but few went up by 3grades. O= to R=. Nearly all went up.

don't trust mechanical grader at all. No inab checks i am sure. Should be independently checked daily.

sandydan

Base price wrote: »

I know there was an issue over the origins of some pork sold in butcher outlets but I never heard of an issue with Bord Bia labelled food. A pretty serious allegation.
http://www.agriland.ie/news/half-pigmeat-products-butchers-irish/

as i said its my opinion , [pork butchers meat origin wasn't something that occurred to me] ,
is meat from imported beef carcasses labelled as non QA beef . or country of origin QA beef, in Ireland. [on packets in which its sold.] or is it sold outside of Ireland as just beef or beef product with an EU beef label ,just asking as a lot of what is happening now reminds me of Beef Tribunal Inquiry days and allegations surrounding that era,also as consumers, we are entitled to ask if and when imported carcass are processed, how are they segregated from Irish QA beef (and labeled). then this begs Question what is beef purchased from QA approved farms sold as, if carcass of animal fails to meet QA beef standards, is it sold as non QA product at discount .public should be made aware this is happening and factories will buck up imo.

Base price

sandydan wrote: »

as i said its my opinion , [pork butchers meat origin wasn't something that occurred to me] ,
is meat from imported beef carcasses labelled as non QA beef . or country of origin QA beef, in Ireland. [on packets in which its sold.] or is it sold outside of Ireland as just beef or beef product with an EU beef label ,just asking as a lot of what is happening now reminds me of Beef Tribunal Inquiry days and allegations surrounding that era,also as consumers, we are entitled to ask if and when imported carcass are processed, how are they segregated from Irish QA beef (and labeled). then this begs Question what is beef purchased from QA approved farms sold as, if carcass of animal fails to meet QA beef standards, is it sold as non QA product at discount .public should be made aware this is happening and factories will buck up imo.

Valid point. I do not know the answer but maybe Rangler does.
I do know that beef sold in Irish restaurants must have the country of origin on the menu. Whether that beef is QA or not I do not know.

amacca

Base price wrote: »

Very valid point. I wonder what QMS is in place. Are the mechanical graders checked regularly by a Approved Authority.
We had a dispute with a factory in 2012 over a grading issue on a double of cattle. We phoned them the afternoon to see how the killed. When we heard what they graded we instructed the factory manager to hold the carcasses for us to inspect. Next morning we went to have a look at them. Factory manager tried to spin us all sorts of ****e excuses about fat scores. OH and I have been too long in this game to take such crap.
I asked to see mechanical grader out of interest and also been the bitch that I can be from time to time :eek:
In fairness the manager brought us to see it. I brought his attention to the fact that some of the long florescent type bulbs were last installed (in the case of 5 bulbs) in May 2011. The instillation date was written in black marker at the end of each bulb. I asked him how many hours (as per the manufacturer specifications) were the bulbs accurate working life. He could not answer me, nor could he answer what Approved Authority checked and calibrated the machine.
After that we had a really nice chat in his office and he re-adjusted the prices.
A few days later I sent a query to our Dept asking them about the calibration of mechanical grading machines. To date I have never received a reply.

If only more were like you….unfortunately thats the kind of fight you need in you just to get a fair deal with the kind of system that is in place in this country (and Im not just talking about farming)

paddysdream

Base price wrote: »

Valid point. I do not know the answer but maybe Rangler does.
I do know that beef sold in Irish restaurants must have the country of origin on the menu. Whether that beef is QA or not I do not know.

The way "some " places get around this is to buy a very small amount of Irish beef/lamb each week and if asked then can say"yes we use Irish meat".

Know a local fine dining establishment which used mainly Argentinian beef a few years ago but always bought a few roasts etc from a local abattoir and used to have a sign proclaiming that they used Irish beef and lamb.To be honest the beef was rather tasty(the once or twice I could afford to go that is!)
Strictly speaking they were correct I suppose but sharp practice nontheless.

As regards QA;we are told thats its very important for overseas sales and marketing but do people in Ireland have a clue about it,whether it exists or even what it means.Just asked the boss and she had never heard of it(in the sense of meat labeling) and said that its not something she was even aware of.This from a serious shopper(one who checks sell by and best before dates on everything and will root down to the back of the fridge to find the yoghurt etc with a better date.Or even the cornflakes with a better date!!!!

Know its a bit off the point but with the ease at which farms are QA passed and the ease at which the factories then twist the product from these to ensure no bonus is payable would we not be better off with a more regulated or statutory scheme which would make all stock sold from these farms legally entitled to the bonus ie where the purchaser had no choice but to apply the bonus.
Maybe base price would then be adjusted 12 cents downwards to reflect this so maybe not the plan!!

Farmer Pudsey

Willfarman wrote: »

I don't know. It's plausible I think yes.
We hadn't many chips to bargain with in the spring with cattle eating ad lb meal.
However in June I felt we had and I contacted wexford ifa and was told there was no appetite among farmers to tackle the issue of feedlots and price I posted on this at the time.
They waited until the horse bolted I suppose. Now after a price has collapsed further if it recovers a bit it will be called a rise and everyone is happy again. We will live on the pride that the retailers instill in Us while they make fortunes!

I think the IFA is playing ducks and drakes. TBF I am disallousioned with a while. My issues are this anything that will upset the status quo they are against. Rangler is always on the beef farmers are not united. However it is hard to unite when you look across all operations. Specialist winter finishers, store to beef, calf to beef, Suckler farmers finishing cattle and those selling weanlings, calf/weanling to store etc,etc, etc.

The reality is the IFA is more interested in retaining SFP in the hands of those who have it. They are dead set against preventing the factory;s form controlling feedlots directly or indirectly. I commented earlier this year that the carron of processors last Christmass where they used expensive purchasses stores to control and drop the price pre christmass. Where are all these buyers of stores now. The reality is that most finishers took a hammering last winter and a lot of smaller lads especially have decided the work and risk attached to finishing a few pens of cattle is not worth it. They know that they will not receive contracts and cattle produced on contract this winter by bigger finishers may be used to limit there return and that the costs that have crept into the system are too high.

rangler1 wrote: »

Henry has been working on this since the start, Eddie was at meetings about it even before he became president, nothing was going to change until farmers stopped throwing cattle at factories
There was lot going on earlier in the year, a few protests were arranged, but were badly supported, a huge amount of texts went out for those, Your branch chairman and delegates would be notified about the supermarket protests.
All your questions would have been answered if you were in Castlerea last Thurs, there's another meeting in Tullamore next week I think

You are right about this rangler if little else, the way lads panicked and threw cattle into factory's over last 4 weeks was stupid. Lots of lads were betting on a cheap store price and panicked thinking price would keep dropping

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

That's a fair point is the QA animal streamed onto a specific QA processing line after slaughter , The last time I killed cattle in the factory I asked for the pre slaughter weight so I could work out a killout % and they looked at me as if I had two heads . A lot of sharp practise goes on in there and although horsemeat has cleaned it up a bit because of retailer inspections the farmer ultimately pays .

Factory's do not weight cattle pre slaughter. However it should be easy enough to do same as cattle are in the shooting box. Scan the tag weigh, shoot.

Base price wrote: »

Very valid point. I wonder what QMS is in place. Are the mechanical graders checked regularly by a Approved Authority.
We had a dispute with a factory in 2012 over a grading issue on a double of cattle. We phoned them the afternoon to see how the killed. When we heard what they graded we instructed the factory manager to hold the carcasses for us to inspect. Next morning we went to have a look at them. Factory manager tried to spin us all sorts of ****e excuses about fat scores. OH and I have been too long in this game to take such crap.
I asked to see mechanical grader out of interest and also been the bitch that I can be from time to time :eek:
In fairness the manager brought us to see it. I brought his attention to the fact that some of the long florescent type bulbs were last installed (in the case of 5 bulbs) in May 2011. The instillation date was written in black marker at the end of each bulb. I asked him how many hours (as per the manufacturer specifications) were the bulbs accurate working life. He could not answer me, nor could he answer what Approved Authority checked and calibrated the machine.
After that we had a really nice chat in his office and he re-adjusted the prices.
A few days later I sent a query to our Dept asking them about the calibration of mechanical grading machines. To date I have never received a reply.

My own opinion is that mechanical grading is easy to manuiplate. The department dose little in the way of checking this IMO. A plant was fined heavily a few years ago over an issue with weights and or grades I think. It Machines were grading incorrectly and the carcase Trim was excessive of I remember right.

I do not think there will be any real change mainly because the status quo helps too many. My advice is to continue paying you IFA subs ans letting Marts and factory's collect levy's to continue the status quo.

paddysdream

Slaney Meats have(still I think,havent sent cattle this year yet) a weighbridge outside the factory.Know that last time sent cattle got the lad in the lorry to weigh in and out just to see the live weight of the bullocks.Know its only an average but as they were a pretty even bunch it at least gives you an idea.

adne

rangler1 wrote: »

[[/U]

When we are attacking the factories on every front, how do you justify that statement.........to me that statement is a load of bollix,
You sitting with your feet up last Thursday, while we were out in the rain in Ballinasloe trying to make it awkward for the factory customers, then you have the gall to say we're running with the hounds
We've met coveney numerous times asking him to get the factories to toe the line, We've met Kenny, bruton, NFU,UFU...... and a good few badly attended protests ......this problem isn't going to solved until the glut is subsided, only a fool would think you'd get a good price in a glut (We'll all happily screw the grain farmers this year because of an oversupply, yet you expect livestock farmers to be immune from the same situation)
I don't have to be in IFA, no more than any of the rest of the officers, I have an interest in issues outside the farm gate.....don't even have to farm now, but if I do chose to farm, I'M GOING TO MAKE SURE IT'S WORTH MY WHILE.
If I thought anything more could be done, I'd be pushing for it, because this will affect the sheep trade

I read this post without noting the name of the poster. 2 lines into it i said to myself. "Sounds like rangler1 on the defensive for the ifa again".

IMO the ifa is a dated organisation that are too cosy with the factories

Abfg

adne wrote: »

I read this post without noting the name of the poster. 2 lines into it i said to myself. "Sounds like rangler1 on the defensive for the ifa again".

IMO the ifa is a dated organisation that are too cosy with the factories

Who does the ministers brother work for ???
Who does the editor of the journals father work for???
Who does the ex leader of the wonderfull organisation called the IFA contract feed cattle for??
It's rotten to the core, best thing to do is to buy a jar of vaseline and it mightn't hurt as much!!!!

rangler1

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

I think the IFA is playing ducks and drakes. TBF I am disallousioned with a while. My issues are this anything that will upset the status quo they are against. Rangler is always on the beef farmers are not united. However it is hard to unite when you look across all operations. Specialist winter finishers, store to beef, calf to beef, Suckler farmers finishing cattle and those selling weanlings, calf/weanling to store etc,etc, etc.

The reality is the IFA is more interested in retaining SFP in the hands of those who have it. They are dead set against preventing the factory;s form controlling feedlots directly or indirectly. I commented earlier this year that the carron of processors last Christmass where they used expensive purchasses stores to control and drop the price pre christmass. Where are all these buyers of stores now. The reality is that most finishers took a hammering last winter and a lot of smaller lads especially have decided the work and risk attached to finishing a few pens of cattle is not worth it. They know that they will not receive contracts and cattle produced on contract this winter by bigger finishers may be used to limit there return and that the costs that have crept into the system are too high
You are right about this rangler if little else, the way lads panicked and threw cattle into factory's over last 4 weeks was stupid. Lots of lads were betting on a cheap store price and panicked thinking price would keep dropping
Factory's do not weight cattle pre slaughter. However it should be easy enough to do same as cattle are in the shooting box. Scan the tag weigh, shoot.
My own opinion is that mechanical grading is easy to manuiplate. The department dose little in the way of checking this IMO. A plant was fined heavily a few years ago over an issue with weights and or grades I think. It Machines were grading incorrectly and the carcase Trim was excessive of I remember right.

I do not think there will be any real change mainly because the status quo helps too many. My advice is to continue paying you IFA subs ans letting Marts and factory's collect levy's to continue the status quo.

IFA reps would be mostly above average farmers, probably on above average SFPs. I give time to IFA to have an input in protecting my income,
still going to lose 30%+ of my SFP by 2019.
On the feedlots, you know my opinion, have a friend feeding a lot of cattle for a factory, works hard and does a good job, so we'll just have to differ
They're around the ring buying farmers cattle every week.
On the QA, the supermarkets are specifying QA, if they're dealing with one factory, I'm sure they're spot checking and auditing it closely to ensure they get QA, It's their problem to supervise the quality they're getting

Willfarman

rangler1 wrote: »

IFA reps would be mostly above average farmers, probably on above average SFPs. I give time to IFA to have an input in protecting my income,
still going to lose 30%+ of my SFP by 2019.
On the feedlots, you know my opinion, have a friend feeding a lot of cattle for a factory, works hard and does a good job, so we'll just have to differ
They're around the ring buying farmers cattle every week.
On the QA, the supermarkets are specifying QA, if they're dealing with one factory, I'm sure they're spot checking and auditing it closely to ensure they get QA, It's their problem to supervise the quality they're getting

Do you have a similar opinion of the imported hoggets that are used to manipulate the market? These feedlots are operating at a loss at times but it gives the factories a reserve of cattle to pull out of if the there is any resistance to a pull in prices. They are illegal in sme states in the USA.

Username John

Abfg wrote: »

Who does the ministers brother work for ???

This was raised before in here - and I don't agree with it.

So what if someone's brother works for one company? If your brother got a job in the local mart, would you stop using it, and travel farther away to the next mart?

Abfg wrote: »

Who does the editor of the journals father work for???

Same as above...

Abfg wrote: »

Who does the ex leader of the wonderful organisation called the IFA contract feed cattle for??

Agree with this actually - I think this is bad form. But this goes back to a bigger issue, of should this be allowed happen.

Do you think farmers should picket the farms of lads that are contract feeding cattle for the factory?
If they did - would it be the factories would lose out (the factories are paying X per day, that's they way it works isn't it?)
Would this / could this be viewed as anti-competitive?
Would there be an appetite to picket these farmers? (It could be one farmer picketing his own neighbour)

Lastly - do people have an alternative to the IFA, or any other suggestions as to what to do here?

Willfarman

Username John wrote: »

This was raised before in here - and I don't agree with it.

So what if someone's brother works for one company? If your brother got a job in the local mart, would you stop using it, and travel farther away to the next mart?



Same as above...



Agree with this actually - I think this is bad form. But this goes back to a bigger issue, of should this be allowed happen.

Do you think farmers should picket the farms of lads that are contract feeding cattle for the factory?
If they did - would it be the factories would lose out (the factories are paying X per day, that's they way it works isn't it?)
Would this / could this be viewed as anti-competitive?
Would there be an appetite to picket these farmers? (It could be one farmer picketing his own neighbour)

Lastly - do people have an alternative to the IFA, or any other suggestions as to what to do here?

Leaving aside who Coveneys brother is.
He is the worst minister of Ag I have ever seen. Worse than Mary Coughlin Imo and that's saying something!

Abfg

Username John wrote: »

This was raised before in here - and I don't agree with it.

So what if someone's brother works for one company? If your brother got a job in the local mart, would you stop using it, and travel farther away to the next mart?



Same as above...



Agree with this actually - I think this is bad form. But this goes back to a bigger issue, of should this be allowed happen.

Do you think farmers should picket the farms of lads that are contract feeding cattle for the factory?
If they did - would it be the factories would lose out (the factories are paying X per day, that's they way it works isn't it?)
Would this / could this be viewed as anti-competitive?
Would there be an appetite to picket these farmers? (It could be one farmer picketing his own neighbour)

Lastly - do people have an alternative to the IFA, or any other suggestions as to what to do here?

How can you compare someone working in the mart to the minister for agriculture responsible for the entire country. NONSENSE
He has stood by and continues to stand by while the whole suckler cow and beef finishing industry goes down the drain.
We'll have nothing in this country after a few years only a few big contractors rearing **** cattle off Dairy herds for Larry.

With regards to the IFA, every farmer in the country should instruct factories when killing their cattle or mart managers when selling cattle, under no circumstances deduct any levy for these shower of clowns. You'd be better off giving it to charity they might do somthing usefull with it.
And if their is any of these clowns reading this save your fingers and stop trying to justify this link with the factories, my 5 year old understand it!!!!!!!
With regards protesting at the ploughing that was mentioned earlier in this thread the biggest protest should be at these clowns tent.

Coonagh

Very few solutions being offered up in this thread just finger pointing and ****e slinging. Beef farming is at a crossroads and to ignore that and not seek an alternative to the production systems that are now under pressure is madness.

Username John

Abfg wrote: »

How can you compare someone working in the mart to the minister for agriculture responsible for the entire country. NONSENSE
.

Is what you're saying is - its ok to have brothers in similar / completing industries, but only up to a certain level?
What about the lad that sells bullocks in the local mart, and see's you're buying them, and says "That abfg, his brother is in the mart, sure he got the auctioneer to screw me over so he'd get them cheap" You'd be ok with that scenario would you?

Abfg wrote: »

He has stood by and continues to stand by while the whole suckler cow and beef finishing industry goes down the drain.
We'll have nothing in this country after a few years only a few big contractors rearing **** cattle off Dairy herds for Larry.

I don't disagree with you. I think Coveney has and is doing a terrible job. But if Covneys brother was the pope, would you be saying something different, or has his brother really nothing to do with his performance?

Abfg wrote: »

With regards to the IFA, every farmer in the country should instruct factories when killing their cattle or mart managers when selling cattle, under no circumstances deduct any levy for these shower of clowns. You'd be better off giving it to charity they might do somthing usefull with it.
And if their is any of these clowns reading this save your fingers and stop trying to justify this link with the factories, my 5 year old understand it!!!!!!!
With regards protesting at the ploughing that was mentioned earlier in this thread the biggest protest should be at these clowns tent.

I think someone raised before, that most employers deduct union fees in the employees pay cheque, and then send to the union. Do you think this is the same, or different?

Personally, I don't see what difference how the IFA gets their money will make. If they tell the factories to stop, and up their membership, will that change things?
Will the price of beef / sheep / grain go up?
Will you support them more then?

I have no affiliation to the IFA, nor do I have beef - so I accept, it is easy for me to talk...

But I think to start blaming the IFA is counter-productive and only adds noise, and distracts from the issue. Its maybe the only organisation that that has some kinda chance of doing something about this whole disaster, that will bring farmers together...

But maybe I'm wrong, and there are other plans afoot to deal with the beef price, outside of the IFA. I guess the same as the lads protesting at the Taoiseach's office?

Farmer Pudsey

Username John wrote: »

This was raised before in here - and I don't agree with it.

So what if someone's brother works for one company? If your brother got a job in the local mart, would you stop using it, and travel farther away to the next mart?



Same as above...



Agree with this actually - I think this is bad form. But this goes back to a bigger issue, of should this be allowed happen.

Do you think farmers should picket the farms of lads that are contract feeding cattle for the factory?
If they did - would it be the factories would lose out (the factories are paying X per day, that's they way it works isn't it?)
Would this / could this be viewed as anti-competitive?
Would there be an appetite to picket these farmers? (It could be one farmer picketing his own neighbour)

Lastly - do people have an alternative to the IFA, or any other suggestions as to what to do here?

The issue is not lads that have contracts and buy cattle on the open market. It is as you say lads that have leased there sheds to processors and feed cattle for them. The processors can control the market with these cattle.

Someone posted here that one such finisher who leased his sheds stated that the costs of feeding these cattle was unprofitable and he go broke doing same. It is obivious at present that the market is skewed and the processors can act to collapse a market sooner and keep it down for longer than it naturally should be.

The other issue is that QA is no longer sustainable and it use along with age penelty is allowing the factory's to buy lots of cheap cattle. When you consider that QA O-cattle are now 3.35/kg under 30 moths and 3.2/kg over 30 months which is little better than cow price. If you also look at the Irish R price it is now constantly 6-8c under the base price. When you consider that some cattle are bought above base price and that this is a steer price and fails to take account of the lower price for bulls processors have access to losts of cheap beef.

rangler1

Willfarman wrote: »

Do you have a similar opinion of the imported hoggets that are used to manipulate the market? These feedlots are operating at a loss at times but it gives the factories a reserve of cattle to pull out of if the there is any resistance to a pull in prices. They are illegal in sme states in the USA.

It's hard for a humble sheep farmer to be listened to on NI imports when dairy farmers and suckler farmers are exporting stock....some into England.
The two regional beef meetings were so busy throwing s..t at the top table that no one was bothered with factory feedlots.....you should go to the next one, you might get a chance to bring it up

onyerbikepat

I passed a CZ registered double trailer truck on the M50 heading south last week. Packed to the gills with sheep. Importing or exporting? Not into sheep at all...:mad: