Beef in Crisis

Damo810

whelan2 wrote: »

atm i have vouchers for super valu-10 euro off if you spend 60, have a book of vouchers for dunnes best of which is 25 euro off if you spend 100. aldi 10 euro off if you spend 60 and some crappy ones for tesco.

How much are they making off farmers if they can afford to give 25% off your weekly shop. Imagine we only got paid for 75% of our cattle and the rest left for free :eek:

We're getting completely screwed here, because factories aren't doing this for free. Does anyone know the cost breakdown of a piece of steak (or any piece of meat) From farmer->Factory->shop?

Reggie.

_Brian wrote: »

The only problem in Cavan is you'd need a helicopter to get into Tesco to do your shopping.

But I agree. Our local Tesco in Bailieborough seems a white elephant it's so quiet.

Well I find the small tescos that are dotted around don't do the same business as the large stores as they haven't the same deals or selection available

_Brian

whelan2 wrote: »

i am now bowing out of this thread . I think hassling people - housewives/shoppers - is not the way to go

I agree completly with Whelan, people are buying a premium product at knock down prices, can't blame them for that, we all do it..

The problem is between the processors and the large multiples, the idea should be to disrupt that link where possible...

I know if once delay a working person getting home to their kids at the end of a long week - no matter what the cause - your the equivalent to the scum of the earth.. For the most people lead busy-condensed lives so if you go delaying and inconveniencing them you're doing your cause no good at all.

This fight should be brought to the gates of the factories..

Muckit

rangler1 wrote: »

Get used to it, this is going to ratchet up

Can you keep us informed in advance of when/where the protests are? Thanks. The more protesters the better l presume?

And before you say anything, although l may not agree with some aspects of these protests, l'm not going to organise any better and I do feel doing something is better than nothing. I don't want to be labelled as a hurler on the ditch

Muckit

Could the delivery lorries be intercepted and stopped from entering the shops?

I know these deliveries are made after hours and they could change times if word got out. Perhaps these protests need to go 24 hours?

Damo810

_Brian wrote: »

I agree completly with Whelan, people are buying a premium product at knock down prices, can't blame them for that, we all do it..

The problem is between the processors and the large multiples, the idea should be to disrupt that link where possible...

I know if once delay a working person getting home to their kids at the end of a long week - no matter what the cause - your the equivalent to the scum of the earth.. For the most people lead busy-condensed lives so if you go delaying and inconveniencing them you're doing your cause no good at all.

This fight should be brought to the gates of the factories..

No one is blaming the consumers. They can only buy whats in front of them, they aren't the problem.

But they aren't the ones being targeted. The supermarkets are and the hope is that this is passed back down the line to the factories. If by disruption you mean, Mary has to go 5 minutes down the road to the next supermarket, then I'm fine with it, we're not looked in a good light anyways and protesting outside a factory instead of a supermarket won't change that. Your going to create pressure from the public by holding up supermarkets, if you match this pressure with information you could see a change, I hope anyways.

The whole disruption thing is overblown anyways, it's a once off protest in a few supermarkets around the country for 3-4 hours, chances are all these towns have multiple supermarkets anyways. I don't think this will radically change public opinion of us as things stand.

Wasn't this 'fight' brought to the gates of the factory before? For all the good it did? Also at that, your only hitting one end of the chain, targeting supermarkets your hitting the two links that are above us where it hurts and supermarkets won't stand for constant disruption, they have enough power to force the factories into paying a fair price, long term.

Damo810

Muckit wrote: »

Could the delivery lorries be intercepted and stopped from entering the shops?

I know these deliveries are made after hours and they could change times if word got out. Perhaps these protests need to go 24 hours?

I don't see the advantage of this over a public protest outside supermarkets. All this will do is put pressure on the hauliers whom I doubt are making a substantial killing out of this.

You keep the public disruption aspect of this as people aren't being supplied with food in the shops, in fact it probably makes things far worse as even without trolleys people can still go in and pick up a few things, if we are to stop that stuff being there in the first place then your making us look very bad indeed.

Theres also the logistics of it, how are we to know when these lorries are going to be and how can you intercept them? The fact they run 24hrs makes things also impossible to judge.

Muckit

Irish indo 30 August (weekend review supplement)

rangler1

Muckit wrote: »

Irish indo 30 August (weekend review supplement)

dairy farmers aren't going to be let suffer any hardship anyway
http://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/european-commission-announces-emergency-market-support-measures-for-milk-sector.30321/

Reggie.

rangler1 wrote: »

dairy farmers aren't going to be let suffer any hardship anyway
http://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/european-commission-announces-emergency-market-support-measures-for-milk-sector.30321/

God forbid. No insult intended to our dairy comrades

Robson99

The gates of the supermarkets need to be blocked. Park a lorry and make sure it cant be started for a couple of hours. As muckit said you need to do it on a busy day. It needs to be a nationwide blitz. Pick Tesco one Saturday at 8 am. Dunnes another. They will get the message if customers cant get in till 11.

leg wax

can the mods take me off as the starter of this thread please.

_Brian

Robson99 wrote: »

The gates of the supermarkets need to be blocked. Park a lorry and make sure it cant be started for a couple of hours. As muckit said you need to do it on a busy day. It needs to be a nationwide blitz. Pick Tesco one Saturday at 8 am. Dunnes another. They will get the message if customers cant get in till 11.

This is madness, pure madness !!
If you were doing this at the factory gate then you'd get great support and send a decent message to them.

Muckit

Does anyone know was it the factories, supermarkets or bord bia that pushed for Qa? They are the ones that have f**ked the whole thing up.

Muckit

_Brian wrote: »

This is madness, pure madness !!
If you were doing this at the factory gate then you'd get great support and send a decent message to them.

Maybe madness needs to be fought with madness!

Is the whole qa system not the height of madness?
Is it not madness to be farming for sweet fa?

Reggie.

leg wax wrote: »

can the mods take me off as the starter of this thread please.

Getting hate mail are ya

rangler1

_Brian wrote: »

This is madness, pure madness !!
If you were doing this at the factory gate then you'd get great support and send a decent message to them.

Pity the farmers didn't have this sort of anger when we were at the factory gates in the spring, If there was 3000 instead of 300 outside Clonee that day, they wouldn't have got to keep us out on the road in the rain

_Brian

Muckit wrote: »

Maybe madness needs to be fought with madness!

Does the whole qa system not the height of madness?
Is it not madness to be farming for sweet fa?

But bringing the fight to Joe public isn't the answer.
It's not them driving down the beef base price.
It's not them implementing am overage penalty or fat score penalties
Was it Joe public blocking uk factories from taking Irish cattle

Our fight is with the processors and there is where it should be. I'd agree with blocking them taking in cattle or taking out beef.

But alienating the public does no good.

rangler1

_Brian wrote: »

But bringing the fight to Joe public isn't the answer.
It's not them driving down the beef base price.
It's not them implementing am overage penalty or fat score penalties
Was it Joe public blocking uk factories from taking Irish cattle

Our fight is with the processors and there is where it should be. I'd agree with blocking them taking in cattle or taking out beef.

But alienating the public does no good.

They just go to the supermarket up the road.

cute geoge

whelan2 wrote: »

i am now bowing out of this thread . I think hassling people - housewives/shoppers - is not the way to go

We are still waiting for anyone to come with a better alternative ,but in the meantime I am going to give my full support to this protest and I should hope all farmers should support it and at least not break the picket by walking past

Miname

Reggie. wrote: »

Getting hate mail are ya

Hes probably one of the few on here that can consistantly avoid the beef crisis, to an extent.

whelan2

rangler1 wrote: »

They just go to the supermarket up the road.

its not that simple, people shop in specific supermarkets every week. Working it into their busy schedule.They put aside time to go there. They shop in a certain supermarket for a reason. I would never shop in Tesco for example, its too expensive. I think if there was another blockade like the one at kepak earlier in the year there would be a better turnout.

rangler1

whelan2 wrote: »

its not that simple, people shop in specific supermarkets every week. Working it into their busy schedule.They put aside time to go there. They shop in a certain supermarket for a reason. I would never shop in Tesco for example, its too expensive. I think if there was another blockade like the one at kepak earlier in the year there would be a better turnout.

There wouldn't be, doing the super markets is the most efficient way with the few that do turnout,

Muckit

_Brian wrote: »

But bringing the fight to Joe public isn't the answer.
It's not them driving down the beef base price.
It's not them implementing am overage penalty or fat score penalties
Was it Joe public blocking uk factories from taking Irish cattle

Our fight is with the processors and there is where it should be. I'd agree with blocking them taking in cattle or taking out beef.

But alienating the public does no good.

You'd agree to blocking your fellow farmers trying to get their cattle killed?

How is blocking supermarkets alienating customers? It's implicating them in this whole fiasco if anything, perhaps this is what you meant? Whether customers like it or not, even though they personally have done nothing wrong, they need to suffer a little in order to really hurt the main culprits. In any war innocent civilians get maimed and killed.

Noone is going to be killed or die of hunger as a result of any of these protests. As Rangler1 points out, go up the road to the next shop. ...are customers really that lazy that they would be annoyed about this? It's unbelievable how lazy and stuck in a rut/routine people can get.

It's a good thing imo if it angers the public. No such thing as bad publicity. Joe public is angry if we slow them up on the road with a tractor. Should we stay off them?

whelan2

I asked on the mamsy forum yesterday what did people think of the supermarket protests and no one knew what i was on about.

rangler1

whelan2 wrote: »

its not that simple, people shop in specific supermarkets every week. Working it into their busy schedule.They put aside time to go there. They shop in a certain supermarket for a reason. I would never shop in Tesco for example, its too expensive. I think if there was another blockade like the one at kepak earlier in the year there would be a better turnout.

If the real market is let work in milk you'll see what a crisis is, I'm disappointed that you worry about where you shop, because somewhere else is too dear, as opposed to what's happening in the beef trade.
You thought 2009 was hard, but intervention came in before the got too bad, but there is no floor to this crisis, there is nothing there to stop the price dropping off the scale
I see the EU is underpinning the price of milk again, you'll never know what a crisis is, it seems

Damo810

whelan2 wrote: »

I asked on the mamsy forum yesterday what did people think of the supermarket protests and no one knew what i was on about.

So we're hardly alienating Joe public then, are we?

Muckit

whelan2 wrote: »

I asked on the mamsy forum yesterday what did people think of the supermarket protests and no one knew what i was on about.

You are contradicting yourself now in all fairness whelan2.

One minute you are saying it is inconveniencing people, the next you are saying some of the public don't even know it's going on. What point are you trying to make?

Oh and l do the food shopping in our house. .....a man pushing a trolley or lifting a shopping basket...shock horror!!!

whelan2

Muckit wrote: »

You are contradicting yourself now in all fairness whelan2.

One minute you are saying it is inconveniencing people, the next you are saying some of the public don't even know it's going on. What point are you trying to make?

Oh and l do the food shopping in our house. .....a man pushing a trolley or lifting a shopping basket...shock horror!!!

I havent seen a protest. I am saying if i did come across one it would inconvenience me. I dont give a fiddlers sho does tbe shopping in each house. I am just pointing out that the people on one of the largest womens sites in the country didnt know there where protests going on

_Brian

Muckit wrote: »

You'd agree to blocking your fellow farmers trying to get their cattle killed?

How is blocking supermarkets alienating customers? It's implicating them in this whole fiasco if anything, perhaps this is what you meant? Whether customers like it or not, even though they personally have done nothing wrong, they need to suffer a little in order to really hurt the main culprits. In any war innocent civilians get maimed and killed.

Noone is going to be killed or die of hunger as a result of any of these protests. As Rangler1 points out, go up the road to the next shop. ...are customers really that lazy that they would be annoyed about this? It's unbelievable how lazy and stuck in a rut/routine people can get.

It's a good thing imo if it angers the public. No such thing as bad publicity. Joe public is angry if we slow them up on the road with a tractor. Should we stay off them?

I think this goes back to the crux of the problem..

We want to picket the end user but not those actually causing the problem because we'd still like to be able to bring cattle into the factory while fighting the problem..

We can't have it every way.. skirt round the edge of the problem all we want but unless the hold the processors have on the industry is tackled then nothing will change other than we'll see farmers on the news making senseless protests.

In my mind two things have to change to make a go of this.. farmers need to understand that to tackle the processors blocking their gates must happen, the IFA need to break their link with the processors and start acting like an independent entity so they can act without the fear of the gravy train being cut off..

Damo810

whelan2 wrote: »

I am just pointing out that the people on one of the largest womens sites in the country didnt know there where protests going on

I did hear that Muckit had the only computer in Ballinasloe, so I suppose it's no surprise

severeoversteer

rangler1 wrote: »

There wouldn't be, doing the super markets is the most efficient way with the few that do turnout,

yes I think the route cause of most of this is due to the supermarkets, they are making money hand over fist, probably even more so than the factories

the newspaper page muckit posted quoted that 40 percent or less of the price of beef in the shops goes to the farmers


at this a 380 kg carcase would be worth €3420 (more if better than r grade)within the time it takes to cut the meat and package etc. the farmer is only getting €1368 for that carcase at €3.60 a kilo


this means the supermarkets and processors have over €2052 euro at least to divide up between them per beast

whelan2

Just to add, is one of the purposes of these protests to make the consumer aware that the farmer is beibg ripped off?

rangler1

whelan2 wrote: »

I havent seen a protest. I am saying if i did come across one it would inconvenience me. I dont give a fiddlers sho does tbe shopping in each house. I am just pointing out that the people on one of the largest womens sites in the country didnt know there where protests going on

We're only starting., You're obviously against us, no matter what we do, you worry about your tax, where do you think drystock farmers are going to get it, you can probably just send off one milk cheque, good year last year for beef so there will be higher tax bills flying

rangler1

_Brian wrote: »

I think this goes back to the crux of the problem..

We want to picket the end user but not those actually causing the problem because we'd still like to be able to bring cattle into the factory while fighting the problem..

We can't have it every way.. skirt round the edge of the problem all we want but unless the hold the processors have on the industry is tackled then nothing will change other than we'll see farmers on the news making senseless protests.

In my mind two things have to change to make a go of this.. farmers need to understand that to tackle the processors blocking their gates must happen, the IFA need to break their link with the processors and start acting like an independent entity so they can act without the fear of the gravy train being cut off..

Are you accusing someone of being influenced by the levy, it's time on this one to either put up the evidence or shut up.
The reason we're not blockading is we got fined €500000/day (half million) in the end for doing it the last time, That's the fear
We'll do it no problem if you sponsor it
Just say that we're being watched very closely

greysides

leg wax wrote: »

can the mods take me off as the starter of this thread please.

Sorry, not possible technically. There is a note in the first post saying this thread was a split-off. That was the best I could do.
For the record, this thread came from the Beef General Discussion thread and was split-off at a point so that it read sensibly.

Edit: .Kovu. finds a way. Well done!

FarmerDougal

severeoversteer wrote: »

yes I think the route cause of most of this is due to the supermarkets, they are making money hand over fist, probably even more so than the factories

the newspaper page muckit posted quoted that 40 percent or less of the price of beef in the shops goes to the farmers


at this a 380 kg carcase would be worth €3420 (more if better than r grade)within the time it takes to cut the meat and package etc. the farmer is only getting €1368 for that carcase at €3.60 a kilo


this means the supermarkets and processors have over €2052 euro at least to divide up between them per beast

I don't follow,

380kg dead at 3.60 is 1368
Boned out 247kg @65%
247*9.50e/kg in shop is 2346
2346-1368 is 978e for the factory and supermarket to covet costs and make a profit not including fifth quarter

??

Damo810

_Brian wrote: »

I think this goes back to the crux of the problem..

We want to picket the end user but not those actually causing the problem because we'd still like to be able to bring cattle into the factory while fighting the problem..

No, they're not picketing the end user, they are piketing the end of the supply chain. The end user is the consumer, they protesting supermarkets and hoping that it will vibrate down to the factories. That way you tackle everyone above us who is making a cleaning, getting 60% of the onstore price after only a short period of time holding that animal. Madness.

The fact people need to sell cattle is hardly surprising, bills needs to be paid, cattle are getting unfit. You cannot block up 30,000 cattle coming fit every week, it's not viable financially and many people may not have the feed stocks either, what should they do for gods sake?

We can't have it every way.. skirt round the edge of the problem all we want but unless the hold the processors have on the industry is tackled then nothing will change other than we'll see farmers on the news making senseless protests.

Your skirting around it by protesting at factories. They are only 1 part of the problem, retaillers are cleaning up too, why should they be exempt from protests? Just because Mary has to go less than 5 minutes down the road. Thats pure sillyness, it's completely illogical. If you tackle the last link in the chain it will reverberate down, and it means we have some form of fear factor if factories are to try and drop price again.

In my mind two things have to change to make a go of this.. farmers need to understand that to tackle the processors blocking their gates must happen

Again, we'll tackle one problem but leave the big lads up in Tesco alone? Factories aren't the only problem here.

the IFA need to break their link with the processors and start acting like an independent entity so they can act without the fear of the gravy train being cut off..

The way I see it they're the only ones protesting? They, without doubt aren't perfect, but anyone can stop their levy. Also you think fear is stopping them from acting out yet don't want them to be at all radical, just block the factory gates, potentially putting farmers out of business and also, based off their previous efforts to do so, get hit with a €500,000 a day fine. Also didn't they protest at a factory earlier on in the year?

_Brian

rangler1 wrote: »

Are you accusing someone of being influenced by the levy, it's time on this one to either put up the evidence or shut up.
The reason we're not blockading is we got fined €500000/day (half million) in the end for doing it the last time, That's the fear
We'll do it no problem if you sponsor it
Just say that we're being watched very closely

Yes, Im stating that the IFA are being influenced by the gravy train from the Levi, an opinion held by farmers far and wide..

And no, I won't shut up..

Kovu

I think severeoversteer means that if the farmer was actually getting 40% or more of the beef price in the shop, a 380 kg carcase would be worth €3420.

The paper is quoting an incorrect figure of how much a farmer really gets from an animal he kills.

FarmerDougal wrote: »

I don't follow,

380kg dead at 3.60 is 1368
Boned out 247kg @65%
247*9.50e/kg in shop is 2346
2346-1368 is 978e for the factory and supermarket to covet costs and make a profit not including fifth quarter

??

rangler1

_Brian wrote: »

Yes, Im stating that the IFA are being influenced by the gravy train from the Levi, an opinion held by farmers far and wide..

And no, I won't shut up..

Get the evidence, simple, I'd count it slanderous.
Farmer coming to livestock meetings have nothing to do with funding.
It's the fairest way, a sheep farmer selling €50000 worth of produce shouldn't have to pay the same as a dairy farmer selling €200000 worth of milk on the same acreage.
I would be very disappointed if any resolution came up to change it, I wouldn't even wait to discuss it,

severeoversteer

FarmerDougal wrote: »

I don't follow,

380kg dead at 3.60 is 1368
Boned out 247kg @65%
247*9.50e/kg in shop is 2346
2346-1368 is 978e for the factory and supermarket to covet costs and make a profit not including fifth quarter

??

well if the statistics say that the farmer gets only 40 % of the value of the beef then the other share of 60 percent is €2052 on a 380 kg carcase given that 40 percent is equal to €1368

Muckit

_Brian wrote: »

I think this goes back to the crux of the problem..

We want to picket the end user but not those actually causing the problem because we'd still like to be able to bring cattle into the factory while fighting the problem.. ..

Yes!! Cattle have to be killed every week. €€ thousands and thousands of euros worth. It's not feasible to hold these back. When they are fit, they are fit. Where should we send them? By saying that finishers should not carry on with their business, you are effectively going up against your fellow farmer. This is not a 'civil war' (yet)-do you want it to be?

Because that's what's going to happen if this thing isn't sorted soon. Would you advocate suckler men holding onto their weanlings if they are being offered €500 for them this autumn??

Beef farmers regardless of what business they do need to understand that this effects ALL OF US and we need to stand together. We are already feeling the pain from the factories and supermarkets, we don't need to be shooting ourselves in the foot as well.

As I have said previously, this is a'war'. There are inevitably going to be 'casualties'. These will unfortunately be the customers. But in the grand scheme of things, it's relatively minor disruption and inconvenience for them. Don't forget, we are customers too, so we are also hitting ourselves, but not by stopping us or our fellow farmers from going about our/their business or costing us thousands of euro in the process.

I agree that it APPEARS that the IFAs position is compromised because of their main funding structure. But they are the only ones doing anything and although I may not agree 100% with everything they do, l'd prefer to stand with them as against them. I or anyone else on here in reality can be as opinionated as we want and take the high moral ground but doing something beats talking about it and doing nothing any day.

rangler1

severeoversteer wrote: »

well if the statistics say that the farmer gets only 40 % of the value of the beef then the other share of 60 percent is €2052 on a 380 kg carcase given that 40 percent is equal to €1368

Killed a lamb here and priced it and we came up with much the same percentages and I'd imagine cattle would be better,
In lamb, IFA consider that fifth quarter pays most of the costs

FarmerDougal

severeoversteer wrote: »

well if the statistics say that the farmer gets only 40 % of the value of the beef then the other share of 60 percent is €2052 on a 380 kg carcase given that 40 percent is equal to €1368

Ah I get ya now

_Brian

Muckit wrote: »

Yes!! Cattle have to be killed every week. €€ thousands and thousands of euros worth. It's not feasible to hold these back. When they are fit, they are fit. Where should we send them? By saying that finishers should not carry on with their business, you are effectively going up against your fellow farmer. This is not a 'civil war' (yet)-do you want it to be?

Because that's what's going to happen if this thing isn't sorted soon. Would you advocate suckler men holding onto their weanlings if they are being offered €500 for them this autumn??

Beef farmers regardless of what business they do need to understand that this effects ALL OF US and we need to stand together. We are already feeling the pain from the factories and supermarkets, we don't need to be shooting ourselves in the foot as well.

As I have said previously, this is a'war'. There are inevitably going to be 'casualties'. These will unfortunately be the customers. But in the grand scheme of things, it's relatively minor disruption and inconvenience for them. Don't forget, we are customers too, so we are also hitting ourselves, but not by stopping us or our fellow farmers from going about our/their business or costing us thousands of euro in the process.

I agree that it APPEARS that the IFAs position is compromised because of their main funding structure. But they are the only ones doing anything and although I may not agree 100% with everything they do, l'd prefer to stand with them as against them. I or anyone else on here in reality can be as opinionated as we want and take the high moral ground but doing something beats talking about it and doing nothing any day.

Without some sort of withholding or blockade we have no leverage over the processors... They must be doubled over laughing at farmers protesting outside supermarkets while they freely destroy the industry..


To equate it back to PAYE workers, and its only a loose association. PAYE workers forgo their pay when striking. You can't have it both ways when your trying to make a point.

TITANIUM.

Muckit wrote: »

You'd agree to blocking your fellow farmers trying to get their cattle killed?

I and a great many others would have no problem blocking the likes of our former IFA president JD, bringing his 1000 head of contract cattle to Larry.
Sum loyalty there.

Damo810

_Brian wrote: »

Without some sort of withholding or blockade we have no leverage over the processors... They must be doubled over laughing at farmers protesting outside supermarkets while they freely destroy the industry..


To equate it back to PAYE workers, and its only a loose association. PAYE workers forgo their pay when striking. You can't have it both ways when your trying to make a point.

They're is leverage. You don't think supermarket chains have no control over the price of beef? They have plenty of power over factories.

As for comparing it to PAYE workers, they don't lose, what is potentially their entire years income. They don't produce a perishable product in small numbers either, it is far easier to organise their strikes.

Do you think it is realistic to stop all the farmers in this country to stop bringing cattle to factories? 30,000 cattle a week, 120,000 a month. We're talking millions of product that has a small period in which it meets the requirements. How could we bear such costs?

To add to this, what will happen when we're threatened with half a million a day fines, from multiple processors? How long would such a protest have to last? A week? A month? Will farmers actually stand for that? And how long before someone takes a low price and puts all the good work into the ground?

rangler1

_Brian wrote: »

Without some sort of withholding or blockade we have no leverage over the processors... They must be doubled over laughing at farmers protesting outside supermarkets while they freely destroy the industry..


To equate it back to PAYE workers, and its only a loose association. PAYE workers forgo their pay when striking. You can't have it both ways when your trying to make a point.

The first morning of the last blockade I had 30 cattle booked in, and I would have sent them only someone phoned me the night before to go to start the blockade in Kildare......we got some abuse from the farmers that morning,
it was at least three weeks after before those cattle went.
We asked farmers a few years later to withdraw supplies....more abus and they didn't do it anyway.
Just on the levies, don't employers deduct union fees for employees

_Brian

rangler1 wrote: »

The first morning of the last blockade I had 30 cattle booked in, and I would have sent them only someone phoned me the night before to go to start the blockade in Kildare......we got some abuse from the farmers that morning,
it was at least three weeks after before those cattle went.
We asked farmers a few years later to withdraw supplies....more abus and they didn't do it anyway.
Just on the levies, don't employers deduct union fees for employees

Yes employers can deduct the fees for unions, OR you can pay directly.