The big Phil Fish, Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian discussion thread

Retr0gamer

Cormac... wrote: »

This is can agree with, but is it a lot worse then the way certain races or professions are portrayed? It might be a little bit worse, but I don't believe it would warp a young mind to think less of women

It's something that needs to be explored. It's been done with other media and would be very interesting with games.

nesf

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Oh, I totally agree here and didn't mean to suggest my points only applied to playable characters. In fact, a lot of the issues being discussed here inevitably affect supporting characters and NPCs more than the actual player controlled ones. And good writing is definitely something more games should focus on - it's amazing that games that are well-written - not even exceptionally written - still have the power to completely flabbergast us.

But again I do firmly believe that there is currently a wild imbalance that exists when it comes to games, and one that's in vital need for addressing. As Morag says - and it's amazing that the phrase hasn't been mentioned before - it's that 'male gaze' that dominates the medium. We need to address that - it might only be one part of the 'making games better' equation, but it's definitely not a negligible part IMO (nor, incidentally, are race, sexuality or the various other areas where a widespread homogeneity exists in gaming)!

I don't really disagree with any of that. There is a massive imbalance in gaming to be sure. Gaming is a hugely male dominated hobby though when you're talking about the AAA games, so it's not overly surprising if that market is being catered to so heavily (not saying this is a good thing).

Retr0gamer

There's lots of really bad attempts at making games dark and gritty which usually results in the addition of strip clubs and sex workers. If its not backed up by good writing it just ends up childish and well sexist. However I don't think a carpet ban on it would be helpful either, for example Chris Avelone really writes that stuff well. I think a lot of these problems come down to immature twenty year old male developer suddenly believing they can write. Most of the best writers in the industry have writing experience usually in tv and movies before they write a good game.

Then again it's not just males, Amy Hennig has written a lot of damsel in distress characters.

Morag

nesf wrote: »

In a WWII fps about regular armed forces, then no, you shouldn't have any female American paratroopers for the same reason you should have no Japanese-American ones.

And I am ok with that, there are explicit reasons for that limitation and indeed given how the most recent GTA game is a very clever exploration of what it means to be a man, then it makes sense that all of the player chars are men.

So I am not saying every single game has to have both options, but can we have some more that do, and some were there are only women protagonists maybe some which are not as invisible as Chelle.

Morag

Retr0gamer wrote: »

There's lots of really bad attempts at making games dark and gritty which usually results in the addition of strip clubs and sex workers. If its not backed up by good writing it just ends up childish and well sexist. However I don't think a carpet ban on it would be helpful either, for example Chris Avelone really writes that stuff well. I think a lot of these problems come down to immature twenty year old male developer suddenly believing they can write. Most of the best writers in the industry have writing experience usually in tv and movies before they write a good game.

Then again it's not just males, Amy Hennig has written a lot of damsel in distress characters.

Devs are seen to be the chief creative force in games and writers are the after thought all to often. Rhianna Pratchett has spoken about this a few times. http://indiestatik.com/2013/07/17/rhianna-pratchett/

http://gamesauce.org/news/2010/08/28/in-the-beginning-there-was-the-word/

If you get a hundred game writers into a room (and I’m not entirely sure that there are a hundred game writers), the one thing they will agree on is that writers are often brought into the development process too late. I hear about far too many scenarios in which the developers have all but built the story house prior to bringing in an actual writer, leaving only enough room for the poor wordsmith to tinker with every 23rd brick. Even worse than that is Weekend at Bernie’s narrative creation. This is where a writer is hired so late in the project that all they can do is put a bit of make-up on the story and jiggle it around a bit, trying to give it a sense of life.

johnny_ultimate

Yeah there's definitely a 'bigger picture' case to be made with tropes and trends, but at the same time you have to look rationally at individual games as well. Some settings and setups restrict certain perspectives. In many situations the gender of characters is more or less completely arbitrary.

Gravity (the film) is a great example that highlights the limits of common criteria in individual cases. It may fail the (in)famous Bechdel test of not having two named female characters talk to each other, and hence seemingly fail in one seemingly basic respect - but that's primarily because there are actually only two or three characters altogether, and we spend the vast bulk of the film with a woman alone.

House of Blaze

Retr0gamer wrote: »

There's lots of really bad attempts at making games dark and gritty which usually results in the addition of strip clubs and sex workers. If its not backed up by good writing it just ends up childish and well sexist. However I don't think a carpet ban on it would be helpful either, for example Chris Avelone really writes that stuff well. I think a lot of these problems come down to immature twenty year old male developer suddenly believing they can write. Most of the best writers in the industry have writing experience usually in tv and movies before they write a good game.

Then again it's not just males, Amy Hennig has written a lot of damsel in distress characters.

You see this all the time in tv / movies though as well with nary a raised eyebrow. Also in the movie business you will find the proliferation of action movies with a strong (white) male character engaging in what can only be called 'damsel saving' and there doesn't seem to be an issue with it.

You will also find multitudes of romantic comedies that are not necessarily marketed toward men, or who expect to garner a large male audience and again, not a bother with that.

I just don't see why the hyperbole is so frenzied when it comes to games in this regard. I mean surely whatever sells sells right? I'm not saying there's no issue but why does it seem to be so vehemently highlighted solely in games?

Morag

House of Blaze wrote: »

I just don't see why the hyperbole is so frenzied when it comes to games in this regard. I mean surely whatever sells sells right? I'm not saying there's no issue but why does it seem to be so vehemently highlighted solely in games?

Main stream media is happy to keep up the scaremongering about games as the idea what you are not consuming their programming and are picking something else to do with your screen time is something they want to stop.

House of Blaze

Morag wrote: »

Main stream media is happy to keep up the scaremongering about games as the idea what you are not consuming their programming and are picking something else to do with your screen time is something they want to stop.

Definitely!

It's always struck me as funny how you don't see any of the same feminist game commentators mounting huge campaigns against say, spiderman (a white superhero spends several movies saving a white girl) or you know, basically every single mainstream action movie?

I mean if anything the games industry is progressive compared with mainstream hollywood movies (which are often hugely popular and make millions of dollars) and yet not a peep out of them.

Also the 'white knights'. Why aren't they campaigning for more male oriented romantic comedies where it is all experienced through the eyes of the male protagonist?

Is it not sufficient to acknowledge that perhaps men and women have different tastes and interests (a la action movies vs. rom-coms) and provide products which cater to each audience?

I mean for every Jack Reacher, Taken, Batman or Die Hard is there an equivalent Resident Evil / Underworld?

I just hate that games have become this arbitrary battleground for gender issues. Makes me almost want to stop self identifying as a gamer.

Sorry, rant over!

e_e

http://www.newstatesman.com/future-proof/2014/08/tropes-vs-anita-sarkeesian-passing-lame-anti-feminist-nonsense-critique

I think there's a rebuttal here to almost every straw-man, threat of violence, false assumption, ad-hominem and even semi-coherent argument against Anita here. Worth a read.

Morag

How women are portrayed in comics is discussed, I think that the femfeq videos owe a lot to http://lby3.com/wir/
Women in Refrigerators by Gail Simone, but Gail Simone is a comic book writer working in the industry, which makes a difference.

Also women in tv & media in general is tackled by Geena Davis Institute on Gender in Media http://seejane.org/about-us/
So the discussion about video games in terms of gender politics is not in isolation or unique.
Unfortunately the level of black lash has been.

I think the immersive and proactive elements of video games means there is a greater moral panic about them currently and but it's the same sort of moral panic which both comics and Tv have faced.

House of Blaze

You're totally right of course, the discussion abounds for other media too, just not in nearly as vocal a way.

Also re: sarkeesian, don't get me wrong, I think what she's doing is admirable. I'm just sick of hearing about the whole god damned argument at this stage.

Adamantium

Thank god for Nintendo, they make games that people simply enjoy and then we move on with our lives, I'm never feel like I'm been fed an agenda.

I'd honestly stop playing games if this muck continues (something which I don't do that often anyway, if Nintendo left the biz)

e_e

http://badassdigest.com/2014/08/26/video-games-misogyny-and-terrorism-a-guide-to-assholes/

I wholeheartedly agree with so much of this.

Am I missing out on anything by completely ignoring everything to do with these three people?

House of Blaze

Deleted User wrote: »

Am I missing out on anything by completely ignoring everything to do with these three people?

Maybe a blinding headache..

gizmo

Deleted User wrote: »

Am I missing out on anything by completely ignoring everything to do with these three people?

You'd be missing out on Fez at the very least.

Kirby

gizmo wrote: »

You'd be missing out on Fez at the very least.

I'm sure a lot of people who downloaded Fez have absolutely no idea who Phil Fish is.

I've played Fez and seen Indie Game so I know a little about Phil Fish. An oddball to say the least. Is this just pointless drama yeah?

Clandestine

e_e wrote: »

http://badassdigest.com/2014/08/26/video-games-misogyny-and-terrorism-a-guide-to-assholes/

I wholeheartedly agree with so much of this.

The owner of that website (who promoted the article) is rather infamous as of late because he said "I have more respect for ISIS than anti-Quinn people".

Clandestine

Also, that article + comments are terrible. Holy S***

House of Blaze

Kirby wrote: »

I'm sure a lot of people who downloaded Fez have absolutely no idea who Phil Fish is.

Ignorance truly is bliss!

Adamantium

A satirical parody of Depression Quest and the games industry. How could you not laugh at this.
Play for yourself. It's a "choose your path type game, turn page to type" game

http://oppressionquest.com/

House of Blaze

Adamantium wrote: »

A satirical parody of Depression Quest and the games industry. How could you not laugh at this.
Play for yourself. It's a "choose your path type game, turn page to type" game

http://oppressionquest.com/

Pretty funny, but it's obviously in the interest of anonymous to paint the picture like that.

With so much bull**** and possible fakery surrounding this story it's hard to really have a good grasp of what's what.

I mean the behaviour guys doing a lot of the abuse and death threats etc. is totally not on, but similarly if any of the alleged fakery, censorship and manipulation going on on the behalf of ZQ turns out to be true its not on either.

Also the whole pulling of videos under copyright law is complete bull**** regardless.

Potatoeman

Clandestine wrote: »

The owner of that website (who promoted the article) is rather infamous as of late because he said "I have more respect for ISIS than anti-Quinn people".

Got down to the comments section where they start talking about MK character design and how the art work in all games is bad.

e_e

Internet comments being irredeemably awful? Well I never! :pac:

gizmo

Clandestine wrote: »

The owner of that website (who promoted the article) is rather infamous as of late because he said "I have more respect for ISIS than anti-Quinn people".

You mean this?

But it’s hard to self-identify as “a gamer” when there’s also a large swathe of that community apparently committed to presenting us all as a bunch of hateful sociopaths. It’s like being a moderate Muslim in the middle of the continuing ISIS takeover and oppression of Iraq.

Appropriateness of the analogy aside, they're two very different things.

Adamantium wrote: »

A satirical parody of Depression Quest and the games industry. How could you not laugh at this.
Play for yourself. It's a "choose your path type game, turn page to type" game

http://oppressionquest.com/

Yup, nothing says hilarity like having a go at someone and their work, getting a bunch of relevant facts wrong all the while hiding behind an alias of Anonymous and championing...ethics?

Potatoeman

e_e wrote: »

Internet comments being irredeemably awful? Well I never! :pac:

Have a look. Go on.

e_e

Potatoeman wrote: »

Have a look. Go on.

Just did. And?

Sin Eater

I'm pretty sickened by the treatment of both Anita Sarkeesian and the other lady.

The feminist frequency video game trope videos are interesting and make some very good points. I do understand that people feel defensive, but even the most hardened gamer has to admit that female characters aren't treated entirely well in the games. Some of her individual examples might be a bit off, for the most part she's quite correct. Even if she was totally wrong, she wouldn't deserve one millionth of the crap that is thrown her way.

The reaction to the feminist frequency videos goes to show just how immature and misogynist the "gaming" community really is. When Roger Ebert claimed a few years ago that Video Games could never be art, the reaction was actually quite positive, it provoked a lot of discussion, with many people suggesting examples of games that might rate highly as art. Sure there was some negativity, but he wasn't harassed, he wasn't abused, and he certainly wasn't threatened with rape and murder. But a woman dares to make some videos making valid points about sexism video games, and she gets harassed, abused, and threatened.