The big Phil Fish, Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian discussion thread

J_E

Adamantium wrote: »

You talk about the number women in LP's but, then say women aren't visible. It has zero to do to with men, enjoy games just like us, nothing is stopping making feminist like overtones in Indie games, the AAA market has no reason to change because of economics of scale

Why do I think women aren't as visible as gamers?

Because women are not interested in the same breadth of genres as men at least the popular ones, so they sort of are not visible because well... they're not. I'm sorry there was more to it.

As long as everybody is enjoying them, and you're clearly an outlier in that you enjoy many of the genres that men do, but that most women I know simply think anything overtly violent is stupid and the like, without looking for the nuances beneath. More power to you.

This is a sad read. I would hate to be a woman in gaming nowadays. The same attitude is everywhere. It's like Gizmo's post completely flew over your head...

Adamantium wrote: »

Should have stayed in the kitchen
www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYoCdiBZp2M#t=20

Stay classy, Adamantium. Maybe you should tell the most women you know to stay in the kitchen too.

BMMachine

Adamantium wrote: »

You see there it is, why do games predominately played and enjoyed men have to change, just to cater a tiny and vocal internet demographic that doesn't correlate into actual sales in the real world. You think Jade Raymond and Hideo Kojima are break off in a wild bold direction on the whim of a half a dozen barely heard of internet personalities, jeopardizing and drawing the wrath of shareholders, hundreds of employees. It would be the height of madness and this wouldn't happen in any industry. Throwing away a large portion of the pie for the just the hope of something sweeter, that probably won't even turn up except in another video to criticise yet another equality issue in gaming. Will Anita be there holding Raymond's hand when she has to announce the yearly profits have taken down turn because of her notions, but hey that's ok we've our principles and the love of the internet community, it'll keep us going.

You talk about the number women in LP's but, then say women aren't visible. It has zero to do to with men, enjoy games just like us, nothing is stopping making feminist like overtones in Indie games, the AAA market has no reason to change because of economics of scale

Why do I think women aren't as visible as gamers?

Because women are not interested in the same breadth of genres as men at least the popular ones, so they sort of are not visible because well... they're not. I'm sorry there was more to it.

As long as everybody is enjoying them, and you're clearly an outlier in that you enjoy many of the genres that men do, but that most women I know simply think anything overtly violent is stupid and the like, without looking for the nuances beneath. More power to you.

Barge pole

Timmyctc

Cydoniac wrote: »

This is a sad read. I would hate to be a woman in gaming nowadays. The same attitude is everywhere. It's like Gizmo's post completely flew over your head...



Stay classy, Adamantium.

Well if the last line is true, and the female gamers he knows aren't interested in what he says then I don't know why its a sad read. He's forwarding his opinion based on his experiences. You don't have to agree. No one does. Nothing anyone says here is absolute (despite what you may think)

J_E

Timmyctc wrote: »

Well if the last line is true, and the female gamers he knows aren't interested in what he says then I don't know why its a sad read. He's forwarding his opinion based on his experiences. You don't have to agree. No one does. Nothing anyone says here is absolute (despite what you may think)

It's a sad read because his attitude is loud and clear, and a quick scan of previous posts made it crystal. Nobody's taking his opinions away from him, but I sure wouldn't want them!

Adamantium

Timmyctc wrote: »

Well if the last line is true, and the female gamers he knows aren't interested in what he says then I don't know why its a sad read. He's forwarding his opinion based on his experiences. You don't have to agree. No one does. Nothing anyone says here is absolute (despite what you may think)

That bolded part, I never said they were gamers, most women I know are not and think games as a whole are a big waste of time, those that are gamers are only really been hardcore into Farmville, Candy Crush and the like and that's fine. But it ain't even close to AAA.


I just don't expect the game developers and shareholders to take notice en masse for something that is not happening on the ground among the mass market.
I don't understand how it could be at all termed misogynist or woman hater or anything like it, when all it is anecdotal evidence and some facts in terms of percentages.

I don't expect people to agree but we're on a gaming forum and we probably tend all heavily biased in our love of games. It is sad how most people won't try something new and intriguing out, but we can't force people to like things because we say so. That's pretty fascistic.

Nintendo is supposed to have broad gender appeal but look:



I read Gizmo's post and I have to add something: the fact is the number of male assassins in 1700's france would have been so small as to be non-existent among the general populace. You can't claim you want complete realism in games/stories and then expect to turn selective when the creators intentions don't match up with the fantasy some people want (and yes I recognise the irony of saying that about an AC game)

Adamantium

Cydoniac wrote: »

Stay classy, Adamantium. Maybe you should tell the most women you know to stay in the kitchen too.

I don't see how a person handling a live grenade and almost killing a crowd of trainee police officers in Brazil has anything to with the relatively calm setting, if somewhat hectic surroundings of a cosmopolitan games developer in Toronto.

I didn't realise the world was so homogenous, thank you for letting me in that secret :rolleyes:

J_E

This just posted this evening!

e_e

e_e

Adamantium wrote: »

I don't expect people to agree but we're on a gaming forum and we probably tend all heavily biased in our love of games. It is sad how most people won't try something new and intriguing out, but we can't force people to like things because we say so. That's pretty fascistic.

I loathe this attitude so much. It suggests that making money is the most honorable thing to do and that insecure, narrow-minded idiots should be the ones who have the final word on how games should be. Arguing against a problematic status quo is NOT fascistic, if anything it's the current state of gaming that is more so especially with the bitterly entitled attitude of so many "gamers" themselves. I mean do I really need to point out once more the disparity in responses to when a girl says something about video games than a guy?

Also just because something is popular doesn't mean that it's free of criticism and that everyone is totally satisfied with it. There's a difference between a lot of spending money on something and thinking it's what's right for the industry. Case in point: I bought Watch Dogs just to see what all the fuss was about, a game with a downright terrible story, characters and some backwards ideas about justice.

gizmo

Adamantium wrote: »

You see there it is, why do games predominately played and enjoyed men have to change, just to cater a tiny and vocal internet demographic that doesn't correlate into actual sales in the real world. You think Jade Raymond and Hideo Kojima are break off in a wild bold direction on the whim of a half a dozen barely heard of internet personalities, jeopardizing and drawing the wrath of shareholders, hundreds of employees. It would be the height of madness and this wouldn't happen in any industry. Throwing away a large portion of the pie for the just the hope of something sweeter, that probably won't even turn up except in another video to criticise yet another equality issue in gaming. Will Anita be there holding Raymond's hand when she has to announce the yearly profits have taken down turn because of her notions, but hey that's ok we've our principles and the love of the internet community, it'll keep us going.

See here's the fundamental flaw in your argument, you don't need to be a female or a feminist to want to see greater diversity, where appropriate, in video game protagonists. Nor do you need to be either to want to see better writing for non-playable females in games or just better representation of females in games in general. You look at "change" in this context as a fundamentally bad thing when it is absolutely not.

Let me come at this argument from a slightly different perspective for a second. Mirrors Edge was one of my favourite games of the last generation. One of the reasons I enjoyed it so much was because rather than playing as the typical gruff protagonist of SquareJaw McGoatee, you played as Faith, a physically capable, independent and not-overly sexualised female. It felt utterly refreshing, probably far more than it should have. Now, as we're all aware, Mirrors Edge wasn't that much of a commercial success for a few reasons. The problem with using your logic, is that you're essentially implying that EA would have lost sales because it starred a woman. This potential scenario says more about the male gaming audience than it does any subversive feminist plot to change games for the worse.

Thankfully I don't think this is the case but, regardless, what these people are asking for isn't for games to "break off in a wild bold direction". What they're asking for is something that will make games more palatable to not just them but to everyone who plays them. I mean did the Bond series suffer when Judi Dench took over as M? Would the Millennium series of novels been better if the protagonist had been a male? Would Terminator 2 have been a better movie if John Connor had just left his mother in hospital?

I mean ****, Ellen Ripley.

Adamantium wrote: »

I read Gizmo's post and I have to add something: the fact is the number of male assassins in 1700's france would have been so small as to be non-existent among the general populace. You can't claim you want complete realism in games/stories and then expect to turn selective when the creators intentions don't match up with the fantasy some people want (and yes I recognise the irony of saying that about an AC game)

Two points here. No one said we want complete realism, that's a complete straw man. You made a joke about there not being many female assassins during that period, I replied with perhaps the most well known. On that note, can you name me one notable male assassin from that period?

Kirby

I can't say I disagree with Adamantium's sentiments here and I feel you are castigating and attacking him for the reality of the situation....something outside his control. You cant will it to be different by attacking him.

If I think of all the people in my own life, most of them play games regularly. I personally know only one woman who games regularly where I know dozens of men.

The simple fact is that like ANY industry, women will see greater representation in gaming when their numbers warrant it. It's a male dominated pastime. That's the reality of the situation and as much as a person may wish it otherwise, its the truth.

Burning Eclipse

Kirby wrote: »

The simple fact is that like ANY industry, women will see greater representation in gaming when their numbers warrant it. It's a male dominated pastime. That's the reality of the situation and as much as a person may wish it otherwise, its the truth.

Just to play devil's advocate here, perhaps if women had a greater representation in gaming, the number interested in gaming would reflect that. It's not a glib comment, but likely a reality. My 12 year old daughter plays games fairly regularly (less than she used to however), but I can see her interest wane because as she gets older, its clear that developers are making games for her male classmates, not her.

e_e

Kirby wrote: »

I can't say I disagree with Adamantium's sentiments here and I feel you are castigating and attacking him for the reality of the situation....something outside his control. You cant will it to be different by attacking him.

But all he's saying is "this is the status quo", it's an utterly irrelevant point when it's the exact thing that many people who play games are against. It's a lackadaisical "this is the way things are, deal with it" argument that silences the conversation. It's also Adamantium speaking on other people's behalf when they clearly feel differently to him. As if everyone who buys the latest AAA title is 100% satisfied with the way gaming is.

mewso

There are several silly arguments here that are getting rather tiring:-

More men play games than women so male protagonist etc. - Tomb Raider for one disproves that so claiming it's a business decision to stick with a male protagonist is weakened somewhat imo and yet I think if a development team decide to make a game with a male protagonist then that is their choice. I don't know if its productive to wail at developers for making this decision instead of asking why they are making it and how we can influence thinking in this area.

Look at the abuse X got when they said something about sexism in games - Most posters have said they don't agree with this behaviour so can we stop throwing it out there as a response to an argument? If we can move past it and treat it like the white noise it is we can start addressing the real problems and somewhere down the line if and when attitudes change these people will be in the minority.

Male gamers treat female gamers with disdain - a la those two lovely cartoons. Maybe there are some immature gamers out there who might treat women like that but I could make some cartoons about male gamers being completely tongue tied in the presence of a girl gamer or one about several teen male gamers trying to chat the girl up. Think up any derivative cartoon to lampoon being a teen in general. It's unfair to level this at some of the posters here if you ask me. Perfectly amusing cartoons. Don't get me wrong.

In so many ways a lot of what folks are saying here on both sides have valid points but to my mind these things are not the real problem. Why are there less female gamers? Why are there less female developers? Does rescuing a princess make me think of women as inferior? Does it make a teenager think of women as inferior? If we work towards encouraging women to play games will that have a more positive effect than attacking developers for not developing with them in mind?

We are at the point now, thanks in part to Anita no matter what you say, where we are aware of the tropes. It's surely time to discuss why they are there, how negative they may or may not be and how to change attitudes where they need to be changed. Forget the trolls please. They are a symptom of a problem. The problem needs to be addressed without any regard to these idiots and they will eventually fade away.

Evade

I had a thought about the whole gaming culture thing this morning. Is it possible it's reached a tipping point of so many people where it's just no longer a thing any more? Billions of people watch movies but there's no movie-goer culture is there?

Penn

Games shouldn't be forced to cater to women.

Games should aim to cater for everyone, without being unnecessarily dismissive or disparaging of any groups of gamers, regardless of how much of a minority they may represent.

nesf

Evade wrote: »

I had a thought about the whole gaming culture thing this morning. Is it possible it's reached a tipping point of so many people where it's just no longer a thing any more? Billions of people watch movies but there's no movie-goer culture is there?

For years it's been argued that the term is meaningless by now. The sub-culture is so fractured and diverse that grouping them together is like tossing Micheal Bay fans in with the Jean Luc Godard enthusiasts into the same box and trying to make generalised comments about them.

Sarky

mewso wrote: »

Look at the abuse X got when they said something about sexism in games - Most posters have said they don't agree with this behaviour so can we stop throwing it out there as a response to an argument? If we can move past it and treat it like the white noise it is we can start addressing the real problems and somewhere down the line if and when attitudes change these people will be in the minority.

Ignoring it won't make it go away. Abusive people need to be called out on their behavior. If you ignore them, minority or not, they'll shout louder than anyone else, and be treated as representative of everyone as a result. This sort of abuse IS a 'real problem', because too many people are just treating it like white noise and not standing up to it. Simply not agreeing with it isn't enough, if it was we'd all have solved it a decade ago. Despicable little sh*ts flinging the kind of abuse they've been flinging are not acceptable, regardless of what this person allegedly said or that person allegedly did, and the rest of us need to actively stand against it because it's not going to sort itself out. Something as simple as a tweet of support to @femfreq will do more to combat sexist f*ckheads than ignoring it.

e_e

mewso wrote: »

Forget the trolls please.

If only it was so simple though. We can't just sweep death/rape threats, harrassment and a general disdain for female voices in gaming under the rug as trolling. That's to ignore the problem, I agree with a lot else of your post but we need to talk about gaming's most rotten aspects to try and come to some solution (if there even is one).

To quote Charlie Brooker: "It's worth examining shit sometimes to see what's wrong with the body as a whole."

e_e

Here's an idea: If "gamers" really see the likes of Anita Sarkeesian and Zoe Quinn as a threat to gaming why don't they just ignore them? By continually making a mountain out of a molehill (the irony is they'd level the same arguments to Anita who's approach is very mild and non-confrontational at best) they are exposing the culture of video games to criticism further. The "trolls" (for serious want of a better word) are only validating them further.

nesf

Sarky wrote: »

Ignoring it won't make it go away. Abusive people need to be called out on their behavior. If you ignore them, minority or not, they'll shout louder than anyone else, and be treated as representative of everyone as a result. This sort of abuse IS a 'real problem', because too many people are just treating it like white noise and not standing up to it. Simply not agreeing with it isn't enough, if it was we'd all have solved it a decade ago. Despicable little sh*ts flinging the kind of abuse they've been flinging are not acceptable, regardless of what this person allegedly said or that person allegedly did, and the rest of us need to actively stand against it because it's not going to sort itself out. Something as simple as a tweet of support to @femfreq will do more to combat sexist f*ckheads than ignoring it.

Definitely happens, shouldn't be ignored but it's not a stick to beat around everyone on the other side with which is what mewso is getting at.

House of Blaze

The one issue I have with this whole argument though is not that women 'aren't real gamers' or any of that.

I just don't see what all these supposedly sexist / misogynist games are. I mean you could argue that first person shooters have an over representation of male protagonists etc. but on the whole, games as a medium are incredibly varied and diverse in general, that is, in the cases of games that even have gendered protagonists in the first place.

I mean some huge % of games released (I can't remember the figure exactly so won't quote it) are puzzle games with no gender involved. In genres such as rpg's you have generally always had the opportunity to either play as a female character, or involve well crafted female characters in your party.

Strategy games generally suppose you are some sort of disembodied god-general who can command your forces without being a physical presence. Same goes for most management games like simcity, the sims in general, theme hospital etc.

Fighting games always have female characters that are the equal of any of the male characters.

Racing games for the most part are gender irrelevant as well.

As for sports games, well in fairness that only represents the lack of general interest for female sports in the real world (among both genders), and really would be committing marketing suicide.

So basically it's really only shooters that have this male slant to them and even then there are, and always have been examples of strong female characters in the genre as well.

So to me, by and large the issue gets a disproportionate level of outcry compared to the reality of what is actually going on in the games industry.

No one could really argue with any credibility that the gaming 'community' is not a vile experience for female gamers, but that isn't really the concern of the developers I would say. On the whole I think the medium is reasonably balanced and that it's the community that is in need of educating rather than the industry that is in need of major changes.

Also the confrontational tone adopted by most of the most outspoken proponents of feminism in games can't seriously believe that their approach is going to accomplish much in the way of impacting the kind of gamer they want to influence in the way they approach the issue.

For every anita sarkeesian there are probably half a dozen female members of the industry who just get the head down and get on with the business of making great games.

Timmyctc

e_e wrote: »

Here's an idea: If "gamers" really see the likes of Anita Sarkeesian and Zoe Quinn as a threat to gaming why don't they just ignore them? By continually making a mountain out of a molehill (the irony is they'd level the same arguments to Anita who's approach is very mild and non-confrontational at best) they are exposing the culture of video games to criticism further. The "trolls" (for serious want of a better word) are only validating them further.

I don't understand where you're coming from. This discussion in this thread has been very mild. No one here has intimated either of the above are a threat to gaming. In fact it would an absolute minority that regard them as such in the grander scheme of things.

You and Cydonic have been taking any minor criticism of the pair as proof that Male gamers have an "attitude" with female gamers. I couldn't give a toss what gender, race, sexual orientation or otherwise someone on my team is as long as they aren't ****e tbh.

What adamantium said wasn't exactly insulting either. He fired out a statistic that Female gamers are indeed rarer than male gamers and his opinion and interpretation of such. Then ye fire out a few passive aggressive comics that represent the view of an absolute minority.

Read what totalbiscuit (As much as I hold disdain for the fellow he is right here) postedearlier. Its essentially what most people have been saying the whole thread. It isn't just For or Against. There's a whole spectrum of support for a whole range of arguments. Just because we criticise Sarkeesian (and why anyone could object to that I dont see why. The girl is a self proclaimed critic for God's sake)

As a matter of fact. The most stubborn people in the discussion so far have been those blindly supporting Sarkeesian's videos and taking any form of criticism of her as an attitude problem Male gamers have.

e_e

House of Blaze wrote: »

I just don't see what all these supposedly sexist / misogynist games are.

It's aspects of the games that are misogynist not the whole games themselves.

House of Blaze wrote: »

No one could really argue with any credibility that the gaming 'community' is not a vile experience for female gamers, but that isn't really the concern of the developers I would say. On the whole I think the medium is reasonably balanced and that it's the community that is in need of educating rather than the industry that is in need of major changes.

You have a point here but the thing is that the gamers and the industry themselves do not exist in a vacuum from each other. It's a valid question why gamers frequently show themselves off to be a very bitter, hostile and intolerant bunch and I think people can look to the games that HAVE been popular for something a context for that behavior. You'll rarely see an influential film or music critic receive the same level of vitriol as the gaming community regularly dishes out. It's worth asking why that is.

House of Blaze wrote: »

Also the confrontational tone adopted by most of the most outspoken proponents of feminism in games can't seriously believe that their approach is going to accomplish much in the way of impacting the kind of gamer they want to influence in the way they approach the issue.

What are you referring to here?

Potatoeman

I dont really fell represented in games either. I fact many main characters are hard to relate to. I dont think its restricted to female characters.

Im all for better written characters but I wont hold my breath. Persona 4 had some of the most interesting characters in any game but not that many people played it.

e_e

Timmyctc wrote: »

I don't understand where you're coming from. This discussion in this thread has been very mild. No one here has intimated either of the above are a threat to gaming. In fact it would an absolute minority that regard them as such in the grander scheme of things.

You and Cydonic have been taking any minor criticism of the pair as proof that Male gamers have an "attitude" with female gamers. I couldn't give a toss what gender, race, sexual orientation or otherwise someone on my team is as long as they aren't ****e tbh.

What adamantium said wasn't exactly insulting either. He fired out a statistic that Female gamers are indeed rarer than male gamers and his opinion and interpretation of such. Then ye fire out a few passive aggressive comics that represent the view of an absolute minority.

Read what totalbiscuit (As much as I hold disdain for the fellow he is right here) postedearlier. Its essentially what most people have been saying the whole thread. It isn't just For or Against. There's a whole spectrum of support for a whole range of arguments. Just because we criticise Sarkeesian (and why anyone could object to that I dont see why. The girl is a self proclaimed critic for God's sake)

I'm calling out the more vocal and hateful critics of Anita/Quinn (the kind who send threats and blow the most minor arguments out of proportion), not anybody in this thread. I actually think this thread has been among the more reasonable discussions I've seen on this subject.

Timmyctc wrote: »

As a matter of fact. The most stubborn people in the discussion so far have been those blindly supporting Sarkeesian's videos and taking any form of criticism of her as an attitude problem Male gamers have.

Completely untrue.

J_E

Timmyctc wrote: »

As a matter of fact. The most stubborn people in the discussion so far have been those blindly supporting Sarkeesian's videos and taking any form of criticism of her as an attitude problem Male gamers have.

Nobody blindly supports her videos. She has holes in most of her arguments, but the ferocity in which she gets attacked and some of the reasons (the way she's dressed, seriously?) is completely undue and unfair. It's become such a mob mentality that many people attacking her have switched on her videos for all of 5 minutes with a preconception that she's some sort of evil girl trying to dismantle gaming. She's just a person with an opinion like everyone else. Ironically, it's the sheer hate that's been driven her way, that's given her such a platform to talk on. We have a problem with male gamers in the culture, it's a problem that's always been there but with social media has only become more exposed and intense. There are times I read stuff online that makes me so embarrassed as a male gamer, and as a gamer in general. We shouldn't be forcing women into gaming culture - they should never have been excluded in the first place. You say that women and men are the same in fighting games - check how much clothes each of them are wearing and the size of their assets! I've yet to see a male character with a bulge or jockstrap.

House of Blaze wrote: »

Also the confrontational tone adopted by most of the most outspoken proponents of feminism in games can't seriously believe that their approach is going to accomplish much in the way of impacting the kind of gamer they want to influence in the way they approach the issue.

For every anita sarkeesian there are probably half a dozen female members of the industry who just get the head down and get on with the business of making great games.

The whole internet has been talking about it for weeks if not months. I'd say that's a pretty large impact.

Timmyctc

e_e wrote: »

I'm calling out the more vocal and hateful critics of Anita/Quinn (the kind who send threats and blow the most minor arguments out of proportion), not anybody in this thread. I actually think this thread has been among the more reasonable discussions I've seen on this subject.

Yeah I get that. But these idiots are an absolute minority in the scheme of things. Theres a comparable amount (not equal amount, mind you) of militant feminist types that attack any and everything that disagrees with Sarkeesian. Or more annoyingly, that attacked people who even levelled a composed critique of ZQ's apparent sleeping with Reviewers to get her game favourable reviews.

I would wager that the vast majority of gamers haven't a clue who ZQ or Sarkeesian are. Of those who know them I'd bet my house the majority aren't fussed. OF those who have an opinion the majority would be of a passive agreement with her general points.

Sarky

Timmyctc wrote: »

Yeah I get that. But these idiots are an absolute minority in the scheme of things. Theres a comparable amount (not equal amount, mind you) of militant feminist types that attack any and everything that disagrees with Sarkeesian. Or more annoyingly, that attacked people who even levelled a composed critique of ZQ's apparent sleeping with Reviewers to get her game favourable reviews.

I would wager that the vast majority of gamers haven't a clue who ZQ or Sarkeesian are. Of those who know them I'd bet my house the majority aren't fussed. OF those who have an opinion the majority would be of a passive agreement with her general points.

Minority or not, they're shouting louder than everyone who just sits back and says "they're just a minority". Like it or not, they're tarring you and me with the same sh*t-covered brush. Not being taken to task on despicable behaviour won't stop them thinking it's ok to threaten the life of someone who points out sexist tropes they see in games, for example.

Timmyctc

Cydoniac wrote: »

Nobody blindly supports her videos. She has holes in most of her arguments, but the ferocity in which she gets attacked and some of the reasons (the way she's dressed, seriously?) is completely undue and unfair. It's become such a mob mentality that many people attacking her have switched on her videos for all of 5 minutes with a preconception that she's some sort of evil girl trying to dismantle gaming. She's just a person with an opinion like everyone else. Ironically, it's the sheer hate that's been driven her way, that's given her such a platform to talk on. We have a problem with male gamers in the culture, it's a problem that's always been there but with social media has only become more exposed and intense. There are times I read stuff online that makes me so embarrassed as a male gamer, and as a gamer in general. We shouldn't be forcing women into gaming culture - they should never have been excluded in the first place. You say that women and men are the same in fighting games - check how much clothes each of them are wearing and the size of their assets! I've yet to see a male character with a bulge or jockstrap.


The whole internet has been talking about it for weeks if not months. I'd say that's a pretty large impact.

You've brought up the "clothes" arguement several times but again. I'd say an absolute minority of people actually forward those arguments. The majority of people don't give a toss. People attack her content and then a minority of her fans act like comparable dicks too.

Yeah males don't get hypersexualised in games ever


LOOK AT ME WITH MY MASSIVE BULGING MUSCLES AND DASHING GOOD LOOKS. It happens with both sides.