The big Phil Fish, Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian discussion thread

mewso

nesf wrote: »

Definitely happens, shouldn't be ignored but it's not a stick to beat around everyone on the other side with which is what mewso is getting at.

Ta nesf. Misrepresenting what people are saying only works against people who want to solve the problem. By all means fight against it in the way you think it should be. I personally think responding to them only adds fuel to the fire. Reporting any actual threats to the authorities of course goes without saying.

Suggesting I was saying we should sweep rape threats under the carpet. I'm out of here if thats how what I'm saying is going to be interpreted.

J_E

Timmyctc wrote: »

You've brought up the "clothes" arguement several times but again. I'd say an absolute minority of people actually forward those arguments. The majority of people don't give a toss. People attack her content and then a minority of her fans act like comparable dicks too.

Yeah males don't get hypersexualised in games ever


LOOK AT ME WITH MY MASSIVE BULGING MUSCLES AND DASHING GOOD LOOKS. It happens with both sides.

As a gay man, I can tell you there is a *clear* difference between big muscles and boob physics. One is allowing a male gamer to live out a macho fantasy. The other is to gawp at. You seem so determined to deny there's an issue in face of all evidence, I'm not really sure why.

Sarky

Sorry if I took you up on that one point incorrectly mewso, I had little issue with the rest. It was the way you said to ignore them that caused the trouble. Easy thing to misinterpret. I didn't mean respond directly to the arseholes, myself. Little good comes of that.

Potatoeman

Sarky wrote: »

Ignoring it won't make it go away. Abusive people need to be called out on their behavior. If you ignore them, minority or not, they'll shout louder than anyone else, and be treated as representative of everyone as a result. This sort of abuse IS a 'real problem', because too many people are just treating it like white noise and not standing up to it. Simply not agreeing with it isn't enough, if it was we'd all have solved it a decade ago. Despicable little sh*ts flinging the kind of abuse they've been flinging are not acceptable, regardless of what this person allegedly said or that person allegedly did, and the rest of us need to actively stand against it because it's not going to sort itself out. Something as simple as a tweet of support to @femfreq will do more to combat sexist f*ckheads than ignoring it.

There is a difference in supporting someones right to speak and supporting someones opinion. I full support her right to speak her mind but would not comment in general support of her as some of her opinions are very hard to agree with.

Sarky

Timmyctc wrote: »

You've brought up the "clothes" arguement several times but again. I'd say an absolute minority of people actually forward those arguments. The majority of people don't give a toss. People attack her content and then a minority of her fans act like comparable dicks too.

Yeah males don't get hypersexualised in games ever
[pic]

LOOK AT ME WITH MY MASSIVE BULGING MUSCLES AND DASHING GOOD LOOKS. It happens with both sides.

You're not seriously comparing Chris Redfield in a tshirt to the likes of Bayonetta, are you?

Sarky

Potatoeman wrote: »

There is a difference in supporting someones right to speak and supporting someones opinion. I full support her right to speak her mind but would not comment in general support of her as some of her opinions are very hard to agree with.

So support the bits you agree with and have a civil discussion about why you disagree with the rest?

Timmyctc

Cydoniac wrote: »

As a gay man, I can tell you there is a *clear* difference between big muscles and boob physics. One is allowing a male gamer to live out a macho fantasy. The other is to gawp at. You seem so determined to deny there's an issue in face of all evidence, I'm not really sure why.

Not entirely certain what sexual orientation has to do with anything tbh. As a bisexual male I can tell you that he is undoubtedly being hypersexualised.

As a whole lot of Japanese devs do to male and female characters in their games. DoA for example (Which I presume you're referring to when you go on about boobs and that) Is a game that uses sexualisation of females to target a fairly obvious audience and it surely is sexist. But its not widespread among fighting games as you make out.



Who's being sexualised there.


Also funny you mention this "in the face of all evidence" like how you couldn't admit the "CREATE A FEMALE LEAD CHARACTER FOR AC" campaign was inherently flawed despite being gifted fairly undeniable proof of such.

Timmyctc

Sarky wrote: »

You're not seriously comparing Chris Redfield in a tshirt to the likes of Bayonetta, are you?

No :P

The Pinnacle of Fighting games clearly.

Its certainly not on par, but games sexualise both sets of characters. Not always as 'tastefully' as Dead or Alive mind you :pac:

Sarky

Not really helping your case here, Timmyctc.

Interested Observer

Timmyctc wrote: »

As a bisexual male I can tell you that he is undoubtedly being hypersexualised.

Are you talking about Chris Redfield there? What would be the point of "hypersexualising" him exactly? I would imagine the vast vast majority of people who buy Resi games are male, and the majority of males are heterosexual. It's not exactly playing up to your target audience. He just looks like a big macho dude to me.

nesf

Sarky wrote: »

Sorry if I took you up on that one point incorrectly mewso, I had little issue with the rest. It was the way you said to ignore them that caused the trouble. Easy thing to misinterpret. I didn't mean respond directly to the arseholes, myself. Little good comes of that.

Well, yes, we should ignore the rape threat and the person receiving the threat should report it to the police. Even better if it's just the police hears about it and the idiot who made the threat and their mates doesn't get any more oxygen. Threats of violence etc are best dealt with in this way in this country at least.

A loud back and forth argument is exactly what these people sending out the threats are trying to stir up. We shouldn't give it to them.

Timmyctc

Interested Observer wrote: »

Are you talking about Chris Redfield there? What would be the point of "hypersexualising" him exactly? I would imagine the vast vast majority of people who buy Resi games are male, and the majority of males are heterosexual. It's not exactly playing up to your target audience. He just looks like a big macho dude to me.

I'd say females play Resi as much as Males. It was certainly one of the first games to have a strong female lead. But Japanese devs like sexualising their characters more often than western developers was mostly my point. They sexualised Jill and they Sexualised Chris and leon to a lesser degree. It happens in both sexes. Women certainly get it worse mind you. (I'm looking mostly at you Dead or Alive Xtreme Beach Vollyball.)

I don't buy that sexualising females is for the benefit of male gamers, but sexualising males is also for the benefit of male gamers.
In any case I gotta go work. Shall continue discussion of my favourite game later. (Its actually so cringey)

J_E

Timmyctc wrote: »

Who's being sexualised there.

http://www.vgtimes.ru/uploads/gallery/comthumb/470/poison-from-street-fighter-10.png
http://media.animevice.com/uploads/2/29947/771726-morrigan.png
http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs31/f/2008/224/1/f/Bridget_Motivational_Poster_by_MeepethAndStuff.jpg

I don't think I even need to post the Dead or Alive ones, we know about those! There's nothing wrong with a sexual flair in games, but it's at an absolutely disproportionate level.

Potatoeman

Cydoniac wrote: »

As a gay man, I can tell you there is a *clear* difference between big muscles and boob physics. One is allowing a male gamer to live out a macho fantasy. The other is to gawp at. You seem so determined to deny there's an issue in face of all evidence, I'm not really sure why.

This kind of response comes up all the time but does a guy want to be Duke Nukem any more than a woman wants to be Laura Croft?

House of Blaze

I've never understood the whole sexualisation thing to be honest, of either gender.

Why is it bad to want your escapist fictional characters to be hotties? It works for both genders like.

Also:

Sexual objectification is the act of treating a person merely as an instrument of sexual pleasure, making them a "sex object."

I don't see how having a bunch of powerful women choosing to dress sexy and kick the **** out of men is them being treated purely as an instrument of sexual pleasure.

How are these women not just empowered female characters?

So if you're a powerful woman who chooses to act or dress in a sexual manner you make yourself a sex object? Is that not some form of 'slut-shaming' then?

My logic circuits are fried on this one..

Timmyctc

Cydoniac wrote: »

I don't think I even need to post the Dead or Alive ones, we know about those! There's nothing wrong with a sexual flair in games, but it's at an absolutely disproportionate level.

But DoA does it so tactfully!
We all know its been disproportionate hugely in the past. I certainly think its been wound down a lot recently.But As I say, its largely Japanese Devs. But anyone pop yer heads into the ladies lounge's 'What makes you drool' thread or similar threads on reddit and such and you'll see a **** tonne of Dreamy mc Herosons with bulging biceps and the ideal face like we're gifted in Resi for example. The types of sexualisation are worlds apart different but they're there in my eyes.

Now I really must go I have a DoA Xtreme Volleyball tournament to attend.

Sarky

nesf wrote: »

Well, yes, we should ignore the rape threat and the person receiving the threat should report it to the police. Even better if it's just the police hears about it and the idiot who made the threat and their mates doesn't get any more oxygen. Threats of violence etc are best dealt with in this way in this country at least.

A loud back and forth argument is exactly what these people sending out the threats are trying to stir up. We shouldn't give it to them.

I'm not advocating a loud back and forth argument, nobody learns much from arguments. What I would like to see is more of the not-sexist silent majority we're supposed to have support people trying to make games a little less sexist. That can include criticism where it's warranted (It is actually ok to disagree with parts of Anita Sarkeesian's videos) but there's plenty of sexism being pointed out that really is just sexism, no matter how one tries to dress it up, and that needs to be called out, and agreed with, and supported, or nobody will learn.

House of Blaze

Timmyctc wrote: »

But DoA does it so tactfully!
We all know its been disproportionate hugely in the past. I certainly think its been wound down a lot recently.But As I say, its largely Japanese Devs. But anyone pop yer heads into the ladies lounge's 'What makes you drool' thread or similar threads on reddit and such and you'll see a **** tonne of Dreamy mc Herosons with bulging biceps and the ideal face like we're gifted in Resi for example. The types of sexualisation are worlds apart different but they're there in my eyes.

Now I really must go I have a DoA Xtreme Volleyball tournament to attend.

http://www.pinterest.com/bembridge/men-as-sex-objects-in-ads/

johnny_ultimate

Penn wrote: »

Games shouldn't be forced to cater to women.

Games should aim to cater for everyone, without being unnecessarily dismissive or disparaging of any groups of gamers, regardless of how much of a minority they may represent.

And there, as far as I'd be concerned, is the crux of it. Inclusiveness should be an organic, inevitable thing - that it needs to be fought for and argued for indicates to me we're not there yet.

I'm a heterosexual male in the key 25-41 demographic, and I'm fed up of game developers presupposing the types of characters and situations I want to see, whether that's gross hyper sexualisation (gross in both senses of the word) or the prevalence of bland, gruff voiced male protagonists. I want the same level of cultural variety and artistic quality I'm lucky to enjoy with film (not that mainstream cinema doesn't have its issues - especially in the Hollywood blockbuster sphere). I want to see games with strongly defined characters of both genders (and indeed even ambiguous gender, as was the case with Dominique Pamplemoose), of different social backgrounds, of different races. Above all I want to see games populated with a range of diverse characters and stories that capture the whole wonderful spectrum of this world. I want to be surprised and challenged as a matter of course. I want all this to be done in a mature and intelligent and inspiring way. It's not even about it necessarily breaching the mainstream, although that's always the ideal. It's just to know these games are available and widely accepted.

I love how gaming is evolving - there's never been a better time to be playing games as there's an exponential increase in the types of games available. Developers are constantly pushing boundaries and forms of expression in ways we couldn't have expected even ten, fifteen years ago. But there's work to do. We need to push and critique the young medium. When we do, we'll all be happier, and more and more people will be able to enjoy and appreciate this exciting hobby of ours.

Potatoeman

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

And there, as far as I'd be concerned, is the crux of it. Inclusiveness should be an organic, inevitable thing - that it needs to be fought for and argued for indicates to me we're not there yet.

I'm a heterosexual male in the key 25-41 demographic, and I'm fed up of game developers presupposing the types of characters and situations I want to see, whether that's gross hyper sexualisation (gross in both senses of the word) or the prevalence of bland, gruff voiced male protagonists. I want the same level of cultural variety and artistic quality I'm lucky to enjoy with film (not that mainstream cinema doesn't have its issues - especially in the Hollywood blockbuster sphere). I want to see games with strongly defined characters of both genders (and indeed even ambiguous gender, as was the case with Dominique Pamplemoose), of different social backgrounds, of different races. Above all I want to see games populated with a range of diverse characters and stories that capture the whole wonderful spectrum of this world. I want to be surprised and challenged as a matter of course. I want all this to be done in a mature and intelligent and inspiring way. It's not even about it necessarily breaching the mainstream, although that's always the ideal. It's just to know these games are available and widely accepted.

I love how gaming is evolving - there's never been a better time to be playing games as there's an exponential increase in the types of games available. Developers are constantly pushing boundaries and forms of expression in ways we couldn't have expected even ten, fifteen years ago. But there's work to do. We need to push and critique the young medium. When we do, we'll all be happier, and more and more people will be able to enjoy and appreciate this exciting hobby of ours.

Isnt this the issue with Hollywood too? Mainstream movies and AAA games have the same issues with pandering. Maybe its just a sign of the masses in general. There are games and movies out there that dont do it

nesf

Sarky wrote: »

I'm not advocating a loud back and forth argument, nobody learns much from arguments. What I would like to see is more of the not-sexist silent majority we're supposed to have support people trying to make games a little less sexist. That can include criticism where it's warranted (It is actually ok to disagree with parts of Anita Sarkeesian's videos) but there's plenty of sexism being pointed out that really is just sexism, no matter how one tries to dress it up, and that needs to be called out, and agreed with, and supported, or nobody will learn.

Well, the core issue is on places like 4chan, tumblr, Reddit and Twitter unless your opinion is pretty hardline in one direction or the other it's going to be lose in the sea of more "interesting" stuff. The middleground view doesn't get heard or noticed, or managed to attract attacks from both sides of the debate.

The internet has this horrible tendency to amplify more extreme views and dampen down more reasonable ones. It's not even that quiet support isn't around for the people being attacked, it's that it's nearly bloody impossible to notice it. You normally have to dig through 1000s of posts on a controversial reddit thread before you start getting to the sane responses and most people don't have that kind of patience. You can see a similar but less pronounced thing here where the louder voices on the further edges of both sides of this debate are dominating most of the replies to this thread either with their own contributions or people rushing to counter/agree with them.

Kirby

Cydoniac wrote: »

One is allowing a male gamer to live out a macho fantasy. The other is to gawp at.

Potatoeman wrote: »

This kind of response comes up all the time but does a guy want to be Duke Nukem any more than a woman wants to be Laura Croft?

Well said. A point that highlights some of the hypocrisy going on here.

So let me get this straight. A beautiful woman in gaming is sexist because it exists solely for men to gawp at.....where as a beautiful man is not because that's nothing to do with women, but more male wish fulfilment.

You know how this comes off right?

Stone Deaf 4evr

I dont know about ye, but I treat games as an escape. i certainly dont want my game characters looking like the cast of fair city. If I wanted ordinary people, I'd go outside. And this applies for both male and female characters. Obviously you'll always have extremes like DOA, but you'll find extremes in any type of media.

Shiminay

You're missing out on an important piece of context though. A vast majority of games are there to fulfil power fantasy. Sometimes that fantasy is to be the hero and murder all the things and save the princess (or whatever) and sometimes that fantasy is to guide the princess to her victory. Like Tomb Raider.

Sometimes it's just as simple as "play this game how you like and you can do it as a man or woman, we don't care."

It's hilarious that something like Saints Row leads the way in player choice whilst at the same time objectifying women (and men, but mostly women) for plot's sake - although I'd suggest they're well aware of how ludacris their objectification is given the game has taken its silliness levels up to 11)

J_E

Kirby wrote: »

Well said. A point that highlights some of the hypocrisy going on here.

So let me get this straight. A beautiful woman in gaming is sexist because it exists solely for men to gawp at.....where as a beautiful man is not because that's nothing to do with women, but more male wish fulfilment.

You know how this comes off right?

This might count if men and women had equal standing...but they don't. And are we really comparing Chris Hadfield exposing his arms to every second leading female character having boobs, ass, legs out on display? Do men have a physics engine for individual parts of their body? :P

Of course, if you do show a male character as sexy, it's swamped in stupid 'that's so gay'. It was hilarious to see how outraged so many men were at Mass Effect having a not only optional, but very deliberately-choiced, gay romance.

Kirby

Cydoniac wrote: »

And are we really comparing Chris Hadfield exposing his arms to every second leading female character having boobs, ass, legs out on display?

No we aren't. so stop straw manning. As the quote clearly indicates, we are highlighting the hypocrisy of objectifying men being fine and objectifying women not. Potatoeman succinctly called you out over that. Buff men is wish fulfilment not sexist but Lara craft clearly is because no women would want to be her?

You can't have it both ways.

Cydoniac wrote: »

Do men have a physics engine for individual parts of their body? :P

Yes. They do. Rufus says hello.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFrFJDhBJ0U

Sin Eater

Kirby wrote: »

Well said. A point that highlights some of the hypocrisy going on here.

So let me get this straight. A beautiful woman in gaming is sexist because it exists solely for men to gawp at.....where as a beautiful man is not because that's nothing to do with women, but more male wish fulfilment.

You know how this comes off right?

I would say you're missing the point. Pointing out games contain sexist elements towards women isn't denying that there are other things wrong. It's just pointing out the sexist elements.

I'm pretty sure there are people who are studying video game images of men and their effect on male body image .. (just do a google search) ... but that's not what the feminist frequency videos are about. They're specifically about sexist tropes from a female point of view.

People seem to complain about sexism in films, tv shows, and other media getting a pass. But again, these are being examined and discussed elsewhere by other people. Just look at how much attention the Bechdel test has gotten in recent years.

It's not hypocritical to examine a specific media from a specific point of view.

COYVB

Am I the only one who doesn't give a toss what the characters look like in a game, or whether they're male or female? That stuff has very no bearing on anything. Make all the characters men, including the damsels in distress, and it won't affect my enjoyment of a good game, or make me dislike a bad game more.

Anita Sarkeesian's arguments are incredibly hypocritical, because they've got no basis in the reality of storytelling. Games are typically based on the traditional tropes and methodologies of traditional storytelling because game writers (the vast majority of them) aren't very good at spinning original tales - but neither is anyone these days.

Whether games feature women in peril or not, they're all based on some kind of established formula that's been around for centuries.

I particularly dislike the woman in the fridge argument. The claim that it's inherently sexist to kill a female character to give a male character reason for revenge is ridiculous. It's typically used to destroy what the character cares about most, sending them off on a mission of vengeance. Most game developers are male, ergo most game developers will identify more with the idea of someone killing their wife or girlfriend more than anything else. There's no issue here, and there's no sexism here.

Sarkeesian's beef is not with sexism in video games, no matter how she frames it, it's with hackneyed storytelling in the medium, and if she framed it that way instead of trying to twist it into some dark, nasty attempt to push women down, she'd have gotten a much better reaction across the board.

I despise this "let's take offence to everything" mentality of the world today. The stories game writers tell are their creations, and they should be able to tell them however they want without having to pander. Don't like the stories they tell? Don't buy the games. Think games are inherently sexist? Don't play games. Why immerse yourself in something you've apparently got a major problem with. It's ridiculous.

On an unrelated note, who'd like to fund my Kickstarter campaign against the objectification of men in Mills & Boon novels?

Dave_The_Sheep

Cydoniac wrote: »

Of course, if you do show a male character as sexy, it's swamped in stupid 'that's so gay'. It was hilarious to see how outraged so many men were at Mass Effect having a not only optional, but very deliberately-choiced, gay romance.

Were they?

Jesus wept.

GarIT

What's wrong with female characters being sexualised or male characters being extra macho. It's a game, it's meant to be fantasy.

Sexism isn't possible in fantasy, saying a game needs to change for being sexist is like saying GTA should be changed because theft and murder is illegal. Games that follow the rules we currently live by are rarely fun.