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The big Phil Fish, Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian discussion thread
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If there's anything to slam Zoe on, it's this;
http://i.imgur.com/n8EvAsb.png
That was nasty, especially knowing she wants her own jam to succeed.0 -
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I'm not particularly sure that's slam worthy to be honest. She was clearly referring to the five (not four) tweets she sent them directly and even then they were asking fairly reasonable questions about their aims and their original, and rather bizarre, rules on transgender entries. Despite this, her conversation with them was framed as her "trying to destroy a game jam" which is grossly hyperbolic under the circumstances.If there's anything to slam Zoe on, it's this;
<video>
That was nasty, especially knowing she wants her own jam to succeed.
I happen to agree with her that there are better ways to support female devs but that doesn't mean TFYC campaign was inherently bad or wrong, there's no reason why both it and other initiatives couldn't exist side by side.
Gross generalisations are bad no matter which group are throwing them around though. All games journalists are no more corrupt, contemptible, cliquey and unworthy of their title than all gamers are racist, homophobic, and misogynist assholes.I think at this point Zoe Quinn doesn't really matter imho, its the insane lenghts some sites have gone to defend there own (fellow game journo's), basically slagging everyone who plays games.
Its astonishing to see so many site apparently collude at the same time to take a dump on there readership and gamers in general. It pretty much proved that regardless of the veracity of the original accusations, that collusion does go on, and that these sites, hold there readership in utter contempt, and that the accusations leveled at them, are basically true, that there a cliquey corrupt group, and they quite frankly do not deserve the title of journalist.
Yes, there are a minority of racist, homophobic, and misogynist assholes, and many of us who play games have encountered such nuts (especially if you are from a minority or are a Woman), but they are a vocal minority of assholes, who use the Internet as a loud speaker, to spout there vile ****. To claim that all people who play games are like these people, is utter bull****, and likes of Kotaku, and there ilk haven't exactly shown themselves in the best light, and a lot of crap is coming up about just how corrupt these guys are.
Lets take Gawker media who own Kotaku, another one of there sites posted the leaked pictures of Jennifer Lawrence, so I don't see how Kotaku can claim any kind of moral high ground in this. There sister site is a smut peddler, that don't give a crap about Woman, and will happily join in violating Women privacy when it profits them. Sorry, but anyone working for Gawker media is no position to claim any kind of moral high ground, when they do **** like, just so they can make some money.
Also, no one is claiming that all people who play games are like these people. Absolutely no one. You really think that a games site like Kotaku would be foolish enough to say such a thing even indirectly?
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Gross generalisations are bad no matter which group are throwing them around though. All games journalists are no more corrupt, contemptible, cliquey and unworthy of their title than all gamers are racist, homophobic, and misogynist assholes.
I am not talking about all games journalists, just the one who took a dump on every single person who plays games. I taught I was clear in what I saying, but to reiterate it here, I am talking specifically about the sites who apparently got together and decided to have a go at every single last person who play games, and anyone who dared question them. Seriously 10 different website post basically the same thing over a 2 day period, having ago at there readership, and you don't see this as any issue?Also, no one is claiming that all people who play games are like these people. Absolutely no one. You really think that a games site like Kotaku would be foolish enough to say such a thing even indirectly?
Have you not read the articles will nonsense like the end of gamers and other such bull**** that Kotaku and there ilk have posted? Just look at Twitter, and see a lot of these people insulting people who have the temerity to point out there corruption, and you know a seemingly coordinated effort to attack there readership, as they made no distinctions here.
Kotaku, and these other sites have brought an almighty **** storm on themselves, and imho deserve 0 sympathy. They could have handled this like adults, but lashed out like the children, that they accuse everyone else of being.0 -
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I've read a few articles and again, they weren't talking about everyone who plays games nor those who were pointing out instances of unreported conflicts of interest in a civilised manner. In fact, the Kotaku article specifically states...
The term gamers as they know full well is a general term used to describe people who play games. Claiming that is means something different is bull****. Kotaku know exactly what there doing, and they are paying for it severly, what with being the center of this **** storm.
Still the fact remains, 10 different site in the space of 2 days, basically saying the same thing. Certainly smacks of collusion imho.This is why it doesn't bother me. I see gamers as people who play video games, simple as that. I don't care if you pump hundreds of hours into CoD and FIFA, have built a €1500 gaming PC to play the latest titles at 1440p60, prefer more off-beat titles such as Gone Home, Proteus or Hohokum or are simply happy to tap away at Candy Crush of Clash of Clans. You play games? You're a gamer in my mind.
And yet Kotaku, seems to think that Gamer mean something altogether differently.Gamer Culture, on the other hand, is to me at least, a term which due to being applied so broadly to such a diverse group, often ends up being associated with the more negative aspects of that group. If there's a move away from that which brings it back in line with just the act of playing games, whatever they may be, then I see that as a positive thing. To quote Mike Bithell on this...
https://twitter.com/mikeBithell/status/506402576322281472
Unfortunately, a lot journalists and there supporters are instead attacking and making fun of people, calling them losers etc all over twitter, here is an example of Leigh Alexandra having a go at actor Adam Baldwin:
This is the level of professionalism that we get from so called games "journalists".0 -
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For what it's worth, as I've dipped in and out of this particular thread, I'm somewhat encouraged by the amount of frankly reasonable discussion and point/counterpoint debate we're seeing.
#NotAllGamers
But seriously, it's been a rough couple of weeks to be looking at gaming coverage and it's meta coverage of itself and where it sees itself in the brader sense of the industry. I have far too many things to spend my energy on (including the playing and enjoying of computer games) to be bothering with the nonsense. I respectfully suggest that if even half of the outraged parties on whichever side of all this mess did the same, they'd be better off.0 -
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Well all I can say is that I, as gamer and someone who reads Kotaku, never felt in the least bit offended when they spoke disparagingly of gamers and the people involved in the campaign of abuse. If you felt insulted then you have my sympathies.The context seems to me that various gaming sites having a go at there readership, and insulting people on twitter and what not. Sorry, but they do not deserve the benefit of the doubt, and there is still the matter of the apparent collusion.
To be honest, I can't see how the diversity issue could be used to distract from corruption. They're completely separate issues, both of which are worthy of debate. In the case of the latter though, could you outline specific examples where evidence exists of genuine corruption? So far I've seen the story of Patricia Hernandez writing articles portraying games made by friends of hers in a positive light. Any other demonstrable examples?Sorry, but the diversity issue is being used deliberately to distract from the obvious corruption, and as someone who supports diversity in gaming, I find it sickening that these outlets are using it to deflect from there own corruption, nepotism and cronyism in these outlets.
The issue here being, some of them are friends with the developers. Therefore, possible conflict of interest aside, it makes sense that they'll report on the abuse received by both those developers and others but not by strangers on the internet. After all, they're gaming journalists.BTW, some of the people engaging in abuse are the reporters themselves, and let be honest there reports on abuse are rather one sided, seeing as they have a habit of only defending there friends.
Again, specific examples of behaviour on twitter giving a conflicting view of the demographic they're referring to would be useful. Just because Leigh Alexander had a go at Adam Baldwin, for instance, doesn't mean she secretly hates all gamers and is referring to them rather than those involved in the abuse.There behavior on twitter tells me another story, and gives me a different context.
As an aside, I absolutely love Adam Baldwin in nearly everything he's been in but that doesn't mean I agree with any of his views or anything he says on Twitter. Thankfully I'm able to separate the two and still enjoy the guys work.
Alas a summary which I simply can't agree with based on not only the lack of solid evidence but also the definition of corrupt.Sorry, but there is far to much evidence of hypocrisy, favoritism, and corruption on these media outlets, who selectively condemn threats for there friends, and anyone who disagrees, the ignore. If these outlets were not corrupt, they would condemn this crap as well, but they haven't because they are corrupt.0 -
#embarrassing4every1
The amount of links to frankly terrible people I've been through in the past week+ really have opened my eyes more to just how low brow and how ugly a lot of the vocal minority are. It all reminds me of the Tea Party Movement in America - loud, uneducated, annoying and ethically moribund.
Consider yourselves very lucky that you have this website as it's (mostly) been a pyre light in regards to this whole issue with thought out points and content.
If I was to sum this whole thing up it would be as follows:
*Its still a maturing industry with a lot of fans that are too young and inexperienced to be taken seriously
*Loud, annoying dribblers are an infection that need to be ignored. Unfortunately some of them are clever enough to ruin peoples lives through doxxing and threatening people through twitter. They need to be punished as badly as that kid who got 25+ years for 'swatting' (another gamer related cause for massive embarrassment)
*Angry young males are a pox on any kind of progression and far too reactionary. They are also sources of massive income for the industry and as long as the industry panders to them and their low standards, things like this 'gamer-gate' (f**king hate that term) are going to continue to happen.
*Sexism is rife throughout the industry and audience and that needs to change.
*The sites that host bad/dodgy/easily influenced journalists need to hold them accountable.
*Criticism by feminist journalists needs to be more in depth, researched better and of a higher standard. Whether that means Anita upping her game or someone else getting involved so be it. Personally, I think Anita can up her game on this. She's quite intelligent and has the right mannerisms and style in her videos.
*Lets not talk about racism in gaming at the minute because juggling hot potatoes is hard 0 -
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All of this. Also can't help but think that those who want to engage in a debate with feminists in gaming should have a read of this:#embarrassing4every1
The amount of links to frankly terrible people I've been through in the past week+ really have opened my eyes more to just how low brow and how ugly a lot of the vocal minority are. It all reminds me of the Tea Party Movement in America - loud, uneducated, annoying and ethically moribund.
Consider yourselves very lucky that you have this website as it's (mostly) been a pyre light in regards to this whole issue with thought out points and content.
If I was to sum this whole thing up it would be as follows:
*Its still a maturing industry with a lot of fans that are too young and inexperienced to be taken seriously
*Loud, annoying dribblers are an infection that need to be ignored. Unfortunately some of them are clever enough to ruin peoples lives through doxxing and threatening people through twitter. They need to be punished as badly as that kid who got 25+ years for 'swatting' (another gamer related cause for massive embarrassment)
*Angry young males are a pox on any kind of progression and far too reactionary. They are also sources of massive income for the industry and as long as the industry panders to them and their low standards, things like this 'gamer-gate' (f**king hate that term) are going to continue to happen.
*Sexism is rife throughout the industry and audience and that needs to change.
*The sites that host bad/dodgy/easily influenced journalists need to hold them accountable.
*Criticism by feminist journalists needs to be more in depth, researched better and of a higher standard. Whether that means Anita upping her game or someone else getting involved so be it. Personally, I think Anita can up her game on this. She's quite intelligent and has the right mannerisms and style in her videos.
*Lets not talk about racism in gaming at the minute because juggling hot potatoes is hard
http://dtstrainphilosophy.blogspot.ie/2005/07/ten-ethics-of-debate.html
It's a sad state of affairs when even influential people on sites like YouTube launch into the usual ad-hominem, reactionary and straw-man bull****. Every time The Amazing Atheist or Thunderfoot pop up as recommendations on my YouTube feed I feel like punching a wall.0 -
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Evade wrote:That was a fake news story, similar to the Onion.
Pretty much agree with the rest.
ahhh didnt realise but now that I look at the article I read of it I see its from "nationalreport.com"
oops.
Well they should be jailed. Heavily. In Antartica.All of this. Also can't help but think that those who want to engage in a debate with feminists in gaming should have a read of this:
http://dtstrainphilosophy.blogspot.ie/2005/07/ten-ethics-of-debate.html
It's a sad state of affairs when even influential people on sites like YouTube launch into the usual ad-hominem, reactionary and straw-man bull****. Every time The Amazing Atheist or Thunderfoot pop up as recommendations on my YouTube feed I feel like punching a wall.
I actually had to read up online on how to block them. I don't want to ever see any of them ever again for the rest of my life. They should be ignored. Its hard to actually write in a rational way when talking about them as the mere thought of them and what they represent is so abhorrent and disgusting. I can see what Phil Fish meant when he was slagging Total Biscuit about being a 'youtuber' and a 'disgusting gross nerd'. (not that I feel that way about Total Biscuit. not a fan of his or anything, I don't think he provides anything relevant to me about games and seems generally pretty low brow but he doesn't seem like a bad guy, definitely not anywhere near those other two humans)0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiWADnV8pmw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Km3DZQp0StE
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