The big Phil Fish, Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian discussion thread

Read this article; Excellent

http://whatculture.com/gaming/10-things-need-know-gamergate-scandal.php

johnny_ultimate

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Read this article; Excellent

http://whatculture.com/gaming/10-things-need-know-gamergate-scandal.php

That's a pretty dreadful article. Not just because it uses the old 'split points into ten separate pages' trick. More because of shallow 'critiques' such as this:

An recent example would be Gone Home, which is game where you walk around a house examining objects. A lot of critiques suspect that this game only gained the popularity it did was because it dealt with LGBT issues and, despite being able to complete it in 20 seconds, received unanimous praise among videogame journalists (with all disagreements being brushed off as “trolling”) – well more than a game of that length and blandness should deserve.

Right then, that's the plethora of people who actually liked and indeed disliked the game for a variety of well-articulated reasons unfairly generalised in one ludicrous paragraph.

gizmo

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Read this article; Excellent

http://whatculture.com/gaming/10-things-need-know-gamergate-scandal.php

My favourite bit was...

Gamers are tired of being talked down to by closet-bigot journalists because they dislike pretentious and boring games such as Gone Home and Depression Quest (not saying that games can’t tackle these issues, but there’s certainly more entertaining ways to go about it – these are video games after all, not books).

To be honest, excellent is not a word I'd use to describe that article.

johnny_ultimate

'Pretentious' and 'boring' - the two words most frequently (ab)used in lieu of actual reasoned criticism.

Shiminay

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Read this article; Excellent

http://whatculture.com/gaming/10-things-need-know-gamergate-scandal.php

I've never heard of that site, but seeing its content and the sort of ads it's serving me whilst I read that article makes my BS Senses tingle on most of what it's saying because it seems to be to be as bad an analysis of the thing as Anita Saarkesian's analysis on women in gaming - biased from the outset and cherry picking and glossing over many points to support its own argument. Some of the points made are absolutely correct, but as a whole, I don't think it's a frank and fair appraisal of things.

super_furry

It's click-bait nonsense that's appealing to the lowest common denominator with absolute nonsense like "12 Awesome Movies You Can Only Watch Once" and "20 Signs You Love Food More Than People." This article fits right in, in terms of quality and tone.

Retr0gamer

Gamers are tired of being talked down to by closet-bigot journalists because they dislike pretentious and boring games such as Gone Home and Depression Quest (not saying that games can’t tackle these issues, but there’s certainly more entertaining ways to go about it – these are video games after all, not books).

Absolute ballocks and pretty much shows the level of intelligence of this 'journalist'.

Standman

Shiminay wrote: »

Trey and Matt are really big games fans, they've definitely heard of it and their core demographic has also heard of it, so it's a contender I'm sure

Yeah maybe you're right. I just would have thought that most game fans simply play games they like and don't keep up to date with all this behind the scenes drama that actually seems to have very little to do with popular games that most people play.

Shiminay

Very true, but keeping up with the cultural zeitgeist in order to parody it or merely comment on it in passing is part of what Trey and Matt and all the folks at South Park Studios do extremely well

Generic Dreadhead

Well, you heard it here 1st :pac:

BMMachine

Shiminay wrote: »

Very true, but keeping up with the cultural zeitgeist in order to parody it or merely comment on it in passing is part of what Trey and Matt and all the folks at South Park Studios do extremely well

I just cant wait for what the trolls look & sound like in it

Shiminay

I reckon they take the idea that Wendy makes a game or wants to talk about games and it kicks off from there.

Generic Dreadhead

Shiminay wrote: »

I reckon they take the idea that Wendy makes a game or wants to talk about games and it kicks off from there.

JOKE INCOMING:

Sarkessian will be a mix of Sarah Palin and Snooki :P

JOKE COMPLETE

e_e

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N-tkrxAEWw

This is worth a watch. Not only calling out Thunderfoot for his nonsense but also refuting those who are quick to call Anita a liar, greedy and say she's out to destroy gaming (ha!).

BMMachine

not watching, want to leave my youtube preferences on bad music tastes and Mark Kermode reviews

e_e

I don't blame you tbh.

Potatoeman

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/columns/experienced-points/12193-Games-Journalists-Views-and-Tastes-Tend-to-Change-With-Age-and-M

I read this and I was left wondering why he picked this game when he does not want to talk about gamergate. Im also left wondering is he friends with the creators?

johnny_ultimate

Potatoeman wrote: »

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/columns/experienced-points/12193-Games-Journalists-Views-and-Tastes-Tend-to-Change-With-Age-and-M

I read this and I was left wondering why he picked this game when he does not want to talk about gamergate. Im also left wondering is he friends with the creators?

???

I'd wager he picked Gone Home because its one of the most high-profile, successful and experimental independent games of recent times. It has also been on the receiving end of something of a hate campaign (see the article linked a few posts above, or the vitriolic metacritic movement against it - not that metacritic user reviews should be considered as anything other than a weird cultural black hole) as well as a very positive reception from many players and critics. It's a divisive title (sadly divisive for the wrong reasons in many cases), and given that its themes and characters are quite unusual for a game it has come under increased scrutiny by both sides in recent weeks.

"It's not an agenda. It's not a conspiracy." Couldn't have put it better. I'm not sure why that fairly inoffensive opinion piece deserves such wild speculation about the author's credibility.

Potatoeman

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

???

I'd wager he picked Gone Home because its one of the most high-profile, successful and experimental independent games of recent times. It has also been on the receiving end of something of a hate campaign (see the article linked a few posts above, or the vitriolic metacritic movement against it - not that metacritic user reviews should be considered as anything other than a weird cultural black hole) as well as a very positive reception from many players and critics.

"It's not an agenda. It's not a conspiracy." Couldn't have put it better. I'm not sure why that fairly inoffensive opinion piece deserves such wild speculation about the author's credibility.

Could he not pick something outside of the whole sh*tstorm?

kunst nugget

Potatoeman wrote: »

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/columns/experienced-points/12193-Games-Journalists-Views-and-Tastes-Tend-to-Change-With-Age-and-M

I read this and I was left wondering why he picked this game when he does not want to talk about gamergate. Im also left wondering is he friends with the creators?

Is Gone Home now part of Gamergate? He probably picked it because it's probably a good example of how critics and gamers diverge in their opinions of games. If a gaming critic plays numerous generic shooters every week, something different can be a breath of fresh air - where as a lot of teenage gamers would find it a completely pointless borefest. I think his analysis is pretty spot on tbh.

johnny_ultimate

Potatoeman wrote: »

Could he not pick something outside of the whole sh*tstorm?

Can you think of another game that so conclusively illustrates a massive gap between many critics and players' responses? They exist (usually followed by a reigniting of the whole 'what makes a game?' debate), but few of them have proven so visibly divisive as Gone Home.

No need to cry conspiracy here - plenty of people have voiced their admiration of Gone Home, and they can't all be mates with the Fullbright crew. Hell, I for one really enjoyed the game's strong environmental storytelling, subversion of survival horror tropes and the straightforward, accessible way it articulated its themes and character arcs - and I'm pretty sure I've never met the developers

Genghiz Cohen

e_e wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N-tkrxAEWw

This is worth a watch. Not only calling out Thunderfoot for his nonsense but also refuting those who are quick to call Anita a liar, greedy and say she's out to destroy gaming (ha!).

I will admit I had dismissed most of Sarkeesian's work as whiny crap, without watching most of it. But that video has pointed out what she is actually trying to do and I can support that.

So, opinion changed.

Also; Wow some of those letters are vile.

super_furry

Meanwhile, award winning games writer Jenn Frank is literally on twitter begging people to stop harassing her, because of you know, "ethics".

https://twitter.com/jennatar/status/507411937383022592

Looking forward to the 'she's faking it and making it up for attention' arguments and oh so convincing rambling tumblr screenshots here too.

Potatoeman

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Can you think of another game that so conclusively illustrates a massive gap between many critics and players' responses? They exist (usually followed by a reigniting of the whole 'what makes a game?' debate), but few of them have proven so visibly divisive as Gone Home.

No need to cry conspiracy here - plenty of people have voiced their admiration of Gone Home, and they can't all be mates with the Fullbright crew. Hell, I for one really enjoyed the game's strong environmental storytelling, subversion of survival horror tropes and the straightforward, accessible way it articulated its themes and character arcs - and I'm pretty sure I've never met the developers

The path or dear Esther. I mean if he doesnt want to discuss the issue maybe he might not post a picture of the games title and discuss it as an example. Its not that I think he should not talk about it but he cant bring it up and then sidestep the issue when its stuck in the middle of it.

I think this is the source of much drama around the whole issue. People on these sites dont want to have this debate but want to comment on certain topics around it. So when it comes back to the source of the topics posters feel censored.

wes

Can't we all go back to complaining about pre-order DLC again?

Sure didn't Game in the UK have some new pre-order, where you get DLC if you pre-order the new COD and Destiny. I think we can unite about how terrible pre-order dlc has gotten .

BMMachine

super_furry wrote: »

Meanwhile, award winning games writer Jenn Frank is literally on twitter begging people to stop harassing her, because of you know, "ethics".

https://twitter.com/jennatar/status/507411937383022592

Looking forward to the 'she's faking it and making it up for attention' arguments and oh so convincing rambling tumblr screenshots here too.

so are they quite literally targeting any female games writer/journalist?
Pretty much proof that there is something deeply wrong with gaming culture when it comes to misogyny. "DON'T SAY THINGS WE DON'T WANT TO HEAR OR WE WILL BULLY YOU ON TWITTER AND IF THAT DOESN'T SHUT YOU UP WE WILL DOXX YOU AND POST YOUR ADDRESS ONLINE TO OUR FELLOW DRIBBLERS!"
burn them all.

Timmyctc

e_e wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N-tkrxAEWw

This is worth a watch. Not only calling out Thunderfoot for his nonsense but also refuting those who are quick to call Anita a liar, greedy and say she's out to destroy gaming (ha!).

Jesus this video is as bad as Thunderf00t's.
Christ alive.

There are people calling her a liar because she misrepresents games. (Would be the closest thing to a logical argument)
The 'logical' arguement for the greedy standpoint is very much a case of 1+2+? = 5. There's an assumption that she got this many monies and has produced content that would cost this many monies therefore where are the monies. Time would tell on that aspect.

Those saying she's out to destroy gaming are a small minority. It would be like me making a deal out of combating the argument that "20,000 PC and PSN gamer's have slept with my mum" or that when I play Fifa I'm A Fenian ****/fag/ etc etc.

johnny_ultimate

Potatoeman wrote: »

I think this is the source of much drama around the whole issue. People on these sites dont want to have this debate but want to comment on certain topics around it. So when it comes back to the source of the topics posters feel censored.

I'm going to blunt here, because it's truly what I believe: writers should be free to talk about any theme or issue that has emerged as a result of this whole debacle, while also being absolutely free to ignore the reams of bull****, nonsense, conspiracy theories and paranoia that have become entwined with it. More than anything, they are absolutely entitled to write features that do not address topics that are in no meaningful way relevant to their argument or the specific point they're trying to address.

'Gamergate' has evoked a whole load of topics worthy of discussion, and some more or less worthy than others. But not every article or writer has the time or inclination to take on all of them in every single article.

Reekwind

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

I'd wager he picked Gone Home because its one of the most high-profile, successful and experimental independent games of recent times. It has also been on the receiving end of something of a hate campaign (see the article linked a few posts above, or the vitriolic metacritic movement against it - not that metacritic user reviews should be considered as anything other than a weird cultural black hole) as well as a very positive reception from many players and critics. It's a divisive title (sadly divisive for the wrong reasons in many cases), and given that its themes and characters are quite unusual for a game it has come under increased scrutiny by both sides in recent weeks.

Nonsense. It's a game that doesn't involve a gruff white bro shooting dudes in the face or stabbing dragons. It's obviously part of the feminist-conspiracy to steal all the games. All the 'hate' Gone Home is getting is just a corrective to the propaganda spewed out by pretentious critics (with their cherry picking and fancy words) who refuse to acknowledge that objectively it doesn't involve shooting dudes in the face. What do they think they're reviewing, books or films?

Serious time. I don't know whether it's due to the industry finally maturing (as Shamus Young suggests) or changing demographics but there's clearly a cultural shift at play here. The anger on display at people who dare to make certain games, or issue criticism of said games, is bizarre. And journalists are on the frontline of this. I've got great sympathy for those journalists who are no longer interested in writing for a toxic and increasingly shrinking demographic.

wes wrote:

Can't we all go back to complaining about pre-order DLC again?

If anything comes out of this whole mess it should be the final acknowledgement that games are a medium that needs to be treated in the same fashion as any other artform. That means having discussions about themes and narratives and gender roles, etc. Hopefully this will be the point at which it no longer becomes possible for people (or at least journalists) to shut out these conversations. And the more acceptable it becomes to build a valid critique that isn't immediately shouted down by insults or threats then the less we'll see of this sort of controversy.

BMMachine wrote:

Pretty much proof that there is something deeply wrong with gaming culture when it comes to misogyny

I think we've got to move past "gaming culture" now. Let's leave the trolls and self-entitled flame warriors to the basement. We don't clearly delineate 'film culture' or 'book culture' or have one all-encompassing 'music culture' so why games? I'm not going to be lumped in with morons who feel threatened by criticism that extends beyond pixel counts. So let's hail the irrelevancy of the traditional gamer identity.

mewso

I think this is the best article I've read on a lot of what has gone on so far. We love to be so polarised. Dislike Anita Sarkeesian? Ignore everything she says? Dislike Thunderfoot? Ignore everything he says. How about taking on board any valid points people on either "side" might have. As an example Thunderfoot is a guy who rallied against the Atheism+ movement and as such I would have been on his "side" but as time has gone on he has lost the plot in many ways and his videos on Sarkeesian are a good example. Never the less at times he has made some very good points and I take them on board while at the same time wishing he would step back and have a look at himself. He used to be an amazing youtuber but he has lost perspective unfortunately. Perspective has been lost on both of the extremes in this whole thing and the Forbes article makes the point well.