The big Phil Fish, Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian discussion thread

Slot Machine

The hating on 4chan is getting really old. I frequent the /tg/ (traditional games - boardgames, tabletop wargaming, pen and paper roleplaying games, things like that) board and a few others and we've had nothing to do with it.

In fact, it's only one board: /v/ (videogames) and practically the entire site hates them because of how **** it is. The running joke for years has been that "it's /b/ with videogames". Well, /pol/ ("politically incorrect") is probably involved too but I never go there so I can't say for certain.

People (and I get the feeling few Boardsies regularly visit or have even been to 4chan) need to realise that 4chan isn't a homogeneous site - it's more like Reddit or Boards in that it's a single site that's made up of individual boards. Each one is almost its own separate subculture. I mean you wouldn't go onto r/theredpill and make a judgement about the entirety of Reddit based on that.

J_E

Slot Machine wrote: »

People (and I get the feeling few Boardsies regularly visit or have even been to 4chan) need to realise that 4chan isn't a homogeneous site - it's more like Reddit or Boards in that it's a single site that's made up of individual boards. Each one is almost its own separate subculture. I mean you wouldn't go onto r/theredpill and make a judgement about the entirety of Reddit based on that.

Yeah, one thing that grinds my gears sometimes is talk of 'Anonymous' in the media like it's some sort of professional/singular organisation, when it's absolutely not.

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

Why is this guy more believable than Quinn's ex?

Confirmation bias?

It is Zoe, and she has video footage of it, think it's far past the point of doubting her credibility (and deeming a seething ex boyfriend more credible? hardly...)

super_furry wrote: »

Looks like the mask is slipping from this orchestrated #gamergate campaign - it was all started and organised by 4chan with a directly stated aim of harassment - https://storify.com/pizza_blood/zoe-quinn-and-the-no-good-very-bad-irc

Glad it's being shown up for what it is, maybe the naysayers will take a step back and realise how nasty this is. If you've ever been the subject of negative discussion on the internet, let alone to the point of threats and planning hacking/illegal action, you know just how poisonous it is and anxious it can make you feel.

K.O.Kiki

super_furry wrote: »

Looks like the mask is slipping from this orchestrated #gamergate campaign - it was all started and organised by 4chan with a directly stated aim of harassment - https://storify.com/pizza_blood/zoe-quinn-and-the-no-good-very-bad-irc

http://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/2fn6vz/looks_like_zoe_edited_those_irc_logs_a_little/

Yeah, no.

wes

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

http://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/2fn6vz/looks_like_zoe_edited_those_irc_logs_a_little/

Yeah, no.

The joke about the confusion between Adam and Alec Baldwin thing is pretty funny. Got a laugh out of me in anyways.

J_E

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

http://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/2fn6vz/looks_like_zoe_edited_those_irc_logs_a_little/

Yeah, no.

Amazing that no matter what she does, people are still willing to spend ages to prove her wrong. I'm not a particular fan of some of the things she did, but the amount she's posted up and what it contains regardless of context surely shows just how far people will go to get their little revenge fantasy in action. How the hell can she definitely prove anything beyond that? Bit elaborate to doctor IRC logs surely and with video evidence? Come on... there are several videos with a LIVE IRC feed.

I'm astounded people are still not willing to admit there's an issue going on here...

Aug 30 16.31.45 <Drinky_Kraw> The so-called enemies of gaming culture are described in the most apocalyptic of terms. Zoe Quinn is a one-woman rogue intelligence outfit with a network of informants, lackeys and highly placed catspaws eager to do her bidding. Anita Sarkeesian is destroying gaming, making it impossible for games like Hitman or Dead or Alive to exist. They and their army of minions have conspired to force all of t
Aug 30 16.31.45 <Drinky_Kraw> he mainstream gaming media outlets to censor any bad press against them while simultaneously destroying the Fine Young Capitalists because they’re just that evil. One “counter-insurgency” is attempting to strike back through a Patreon-funded documentary series entitled “The Sarkeesian Effect” which is totally not about Anita Sarkeesian ya’ll despite having her name attached to it.


Sep 03 01.28.37 <zhplach> because we got the thing we originally set out for
Sep 03 01.28.39 <Bub> I'll stick around even if you lose
Sep 03 01.28.42 <zhplach> which is expose whore

This is the average mentality going on in that IRC chat (log). I mean, seriously...how can you justify stuff like that?

kiad

be excellent to each other

stop being a little ******. if you are cool and good, be cool and good. no reports. no trolling cos of boredom
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XA-Rj0WjoTg

Status Offline

Cydoniac wrote: »

Amazing that no matter what she does, people are still willing to spend ages to prove her wrong. I'm not a particular fan of some of the things she did, but the amount she's posted up and what it contains regardless of context surely shows just how far people will go to get their little revenge fantasy in action. How the hell can she definitely prove anything beyond that? Bit elaborate to doctor IRC logs surely and with video evidence? Come on... there are several videos with a LIVE IRC feed.

I'm astounded people are still not willing to admit there's an issue going on here...




This is the average mentality going on in that IRC chat (log). I mean, seriously...how can you justify stuff like that?

It's pretty obvious that there has been a campaign of abuse and bullying against her.Unfortunately I think she's going about things the wrong way.As far as I could see the attention was drawn off her the last week or so by the majority of the guys abusing people.All she's done by posting this is draw it all back on her. I'm not saying that she shouldn't be able to voice her opinions but use a bit of common sense.Any one over the age of 16 knows that engaging with trolls on any level will only add fuel to the fire. If she wants to make things better submit the stuff in a police report and don't post it on Twitter or antagonize these idiots further.Also calling out people that used the gamersgate or notyoushild things as being idiots and puppets of 4chan isn't going to make her any friends. Not everyone is involved with 4chan or is even aware of her involvement in it.

She was a nobody before this and she'll be a nobody when this is all over again. If people don't like her, stop attacking her and making her infamous.Ignore her and she'll slip back into be known by a very small group of similar minded people.There's room for every one to do their own thing.

the escapist has been in contact with her and guys from 4chan about it and she seems to have gone quiet about it again.The article is pretty good and unbiased.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/137293-Exclusive-Zoe-Quinn-Posts-Chat-Logs-Debunking-GamerGate-4Chan-and-Quinn-Respond

K.O.Kiki

Status Offline wrote: »

It's pretty obvious that there has been a campaign of abuse and bullying against her.Unfortunately I think she's going about things the wrong way.As far as I could see the attention was drawn off her the last week or so by the majority of the guys abusing people.All she's done by posting this is draw it all back on her. I'm not saying that she shouldn't be able to voice her opinions but use a bit of common sense.Any one over the age of 16 knows that engaging with trolls on any level will only add fuel to the fire. If she wants to make things better submit the stuff in a police report and don't post it on Twitter or antagonize these idiots further.Also calling out people that used the gamersgate or notyoushild things as being idiots and puppets of 4chan isn't going to make her any friends. Not everyone is involved with 4chan or is even aware of her involvement in it.

She was a nobody before this and she'll be a nobody when this is all over again. If people don't like her, stop attacking her and making her infamous.Ignore her and she'll slip back into be known by a very small group of similar minded people.There's room for every one to do their own thing.

the escapist has been in contact with her and guys from 4chan about it and she seems to have gone quiet about it again.The article is pretty good and unbiased.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/137293-Exclusive-Zoe-Quinn-Posts-Chat-Logs-Debunking-GamerGate-4Chan-and-Quinn-Respond

But this whole thing isn't about some no-name "developer".

This is about corruption, cronyism and non-professionalism by gaming journalists/media.

J_E

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

But this whole thing isn't about some no-name "developer".

This is about corruption, cronyism and non-professionalism by gaming journalists/media.

The gaming industry and their media presence will grow up when the big consumers of the medium grow up.

Any one over the age of 16 knows that engaging with trolls on any level will only add fuel to the fire.

I figured that's the best way to tackle it too until once I got entangled in something similar but much smaller scale. Whether you speak or not, people play chinese whispers and things you said or did get twisted, you are analysed and people try to guess what you will do or say, or who you are as a person. Sometimes it's better to stand your ground and maintain your own credibility when nobody else will.

K.O.Kiki

Cydoniac wrote: »

The gaming industry and their media presence will grow up when the big consumers of the medium grow up.

http://www.bigfishgames.com/blog/2014-global-gaming-stats-whos-playing-what-and-why/

The average video games player is in their early-to-mid 30s.

Get off your fecking high horse.

Status Offline

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

But this whole thing isn't about some no-name "developer".

This is about corruption, cronyism and non-professionalism by gaming journalists/media.

yeah I know, i wasn't talking about the whole thing,just Zoe Quinn's involvement in it.

johnny_ultimate

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

This is about corruption, cronyism and non-professionalism by gaming journalists/media.

If any worthwhile criticisms of the gaming media have emerged as a result of this - and don't get me wrong, some of their practices are far from ideal and a discussion is worthwhile - it has almost been accidental given the various factors that triggered the whole affair. The early accusations directed at specific journalists have pretty much been proven to have been tenuous at best.

It's great that publications are revising and clarifying their policies in light of all this, but many of the 'journalistic integrity' criticisms have IMO been strained and hyperbolic, and almost tangential to many of the core issues that seem to have kicked off all this.

Retr0gamer

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

http://www.bigfishgames.com/blog/2014-global-gaming-stats-whos-playing-what-and-why/

The average video games player is in their early-to-mid 30s.

Get off your fecking high horse.

Stats taken from research that excludes anyone under the age of 20 last time I looked.

J_E

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

http://www.bigfishgames.com/blog/2014-global-gaming-stats-whos-playing-what-and-why/

The average video games player is in their early-to-mid 30s.

Get off your fecking high horse.

I wasn't talking about age at all, and you only proved my point with that remark!

K.O.Kiki

http://www.lordkat.com/igf-and-indiecade.html

via http://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/2fqul7/igf_and_indiecade_racketeering/

Discussions on reddit's main Games section being removed and users shadowbanned.

*edit*

video:

kunst nugget

I had a great weekend of gaming playing Velocity 2 and Don't Starve until I realised that they were indie games that were probably made by feminazis who are friends of friends of that guy that wrote for Kotaku once and Phil Fish and the red mist descended on me and I opened up my PS3 and I sh¡t on my hard drive just like those indie games have sh¡t on the industry I love so much by trying to turn me into a girl. Now I don't have anything to play on.

So, what did I miss?

gizmo

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

http://www.lordkat.com/igf-and-indiecade.html

via http://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/2fqul7/igf_and_indiecade_racketeering/

Discussions on reddit's main Games section being removed and users shadowbanned.

What always surprises me about these articles is they never ask the most obvious question in my mind. Do these games get the investment, promotion and critical and commercial reception they do because they happen to be excellent rather than simply who is behind them? I mean, if you're going to talk about the Indiefund, why not also talk about Q.U.B.E? After all, it was the first game to be backed by the group once it was fully set up, if there was some grand conspiracy surely that would have won these same awards and gotten loads of exposure and positive press? Why are they only picking on the games which have, generally speaking, been extremely well received critically almost across the board?

The idea that the games sites are in on it too is equally baffling. We're talking about an industry that is almost completely dependent on ad-based revenue. There have been several notable incidents of publishers playing hardball over early access to games in exchange for high reviews and publishers and marketeers unhappy over negative coverage of their games. Yet we're supposed to believe that these sites and their parent companies could be swayed over loose friendships with some indie developers?

As an aside, a possible explanation for why this particular topic isn't being discussed is because the initial article essentially accused a bunch of people of racketeering without anything even resembling non-circumstantial evidence.

johnny_ultimate

Putting aside the latest conspiracy theory for a moment (which makes a huge amount of speculative leaps, as is to be expected), I reckon the existence of an independent development 'clique' (I use the term loosely) has actually been a good thing when it comes to independent gaming.

We're not talking about big, sinister corporations here, but rather a group of people united by a mutual interest in creating interesting and ambitious games and trying to get these games the attention they deserve. Call it a 'conflict of interest' if you will, but to me it's an inevitable thing considering how specific the field is and has had many positives. The whole indie scene only really came to fruition in 2008 or so with the release of games like Braid and World of Goo - with only a few successful titles out there, of course the creators were going to throw their support (financial and otherwise) behind the games they thought were interesting. And games like Fez, Papers Please and Monaco were interesting and in many cases brilliant and top of their game. They deserved the support & acclaim, and I don't see any evidence that any clique has actively excluded worthwhile games in favour of awarding friends.

Nonetheless, given how small the field was (and in many ways still is), of course many of the developers were going to know each other. And they actually threw their support behind each other in ways that benefited everyone who played the games. It's really encouraging to see characters from Gish, Braid, Bit.Trip and other games make appearances in Super Meat Boy, for example - it's showing a real sense of community between the developers of these titles and a willingness to support each other. The resources of the successful developers being used to support underdogs and games that really need the publicity? That's far more for good than evil IMO. It's ****ty if worthy games got overshadowed because of higher-profile candidates, but to be fair a quick glance at the IGF award winners over the years (even if a single year!) highlights a hugely diverse range of titles awarded - using a single (very good) game's (deserved) success to accuse the organisation of corruption seems like a pretty radical jump when the IGF awards seem to have benefited a significant number of games from all sorts of backgrounds. It has ensured a whole lot of fascinating games have been flagged as worthy of attention - an important thing when the signal:noise ratio is ever growing, and mainstream gaming media remains so dominated by coverage of AAA titles.

If there has been some suspect activity here - and again, 'innocent until proven guilty' remains a pretty solid mantra that has served society well - a lot of it can be attributed to growing pains in what is still a young, evolving and - crucially - niche field. And above all these games have had a very positive effect on the quality of gaming in general, so they seem like very strange targets to pick on. It's almost as if the games have gotten obscured in favour of attempts to discredit a handful of individuals.

Grumpypants

Breaking the mold of ranting Youtube videos, here are some sensible women talking to someone who was actually involved. Very long but worth a listen

K.O.Kiki

The Undercurrent of Misogyny in Gaming Journalism

kunst nugget

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

The Undercurrent of Misogyny in Gaming Journalism

Christ almighty, that is one painful piece of writing.

K.O.Kiki

kunst nugget wrote: »

Christ almighty, that is one painful piece of writing.

Is that all the critique you can muster?

How did you find this painful?
Was it factually incorrect?

johnny_ultimate

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

Was it factually incorrect?

Yes.

On the one hand, you can view Zoe as playing indie game developer on easy mode, but on the other hand you have Nathan Grayson holding all the power. One could easily make a comparison to a student sleeping with their teacher for a good grade; in this case it is a good review or simply positive press.

That is factually incorrect, because there is no evidence whatsoever said good review and positive press exist, and have in fact been refuted in the strongest terms by Grayson's editor It also contains several ludicrous strawman rebuttals.

It's a ranty blog post attacking a ranty blog post. Neither are worth much time or attention.

Gbear

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

The Undercurrent of Misogyny in Gaming Journalism

I'm not sure the vacuous fluff he's replying to that's heavy on swearing and light on anything of substance was worth engaging with in the first place.

kunst nugget

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

Is that all the critique you can muster?

How did you find this painful?
Was it factually incorrect?

Sorry for the delay in replying, I was watching the latest episode of the Strain where it turns out that

the evil monster looks like a bad guy from Elmo in Grouchland except with weird penis fingers. Goddammit, it was goofy...

Some dick writes a ranty and fallacious op-ed about misogyny in gaming and some other dick writes a reply using the finest in cherry-picking and strawmanning technology that it is an utter chore to read. Both articles are masterclass in misrepresentation. It's like drinking a pint of piss to get rid of the taste of a poo sandwich. Terrible stuff altogether.

Was if factually incorrect? God knows... I read through it once already without losing the will to live but I don't know if I could make it through a second reading. Let's get something straight though, the original article is just as bad. The opening line about what his daughter supposedly said to him? Bulllllsssshhiiitttt!

johnny_ultimate

As crappy as the two articles are, the two comments underneath 'the rebuttal' are great though.

Just plain spectacular. A well-reasoned and thoroughly beautiful riposte to such a disgusting and laughably sad tirade from Costikyan.

Of all the words in the English language someone could choose to critique that piece - beautiful?

wes

One of the better articles on this, that I have read. Very fair to all involved imho:

“I want a straight white male gaming convention”: How a culture war exploded in the video gaming world

As a gamer myself, I've seen tensions simmering in the community for years. So #gamergate doesn't shock me at all

Zaid Jilani

Over the past few weeks, the video game community has erupted into a full-blown culture war. On one side are the gaming journalists and developers, circling the wagons around feminist activist Anita Sarkeesian and feminist game developer Zoe Quinn, and on the other side are legions of self-proclaimed “gamers,” outraged that the games they love are being criticized. The “#gamergate” conflict has taken many outside of the video gaming bubble by surprise. But as a longtime gamer, I’ve long expected such a fight to break out. It was pretty much inevitable. And necessary. Here’s why.

Click here for full article

Gbear

There is a very clear cultural problem on the internet as a whole in the way people fire out horrendous abuse that they'd never dream of in face to face interactions and it obviously gets worse if they're not only removed from human interaction but also anonymous.

You see the same problems in all areas that social media has permeated:
Example here - Jamie Carragher mocks Manchester Utd - random person calls him a "scouse c*nt".
It's a common theme on football-related twitter interactions.

In my uneducated opinion, it appears that there's a lot of backsliding going on with our tribalistic urges and it's easy to see how that can happen with faceless interactions on twitter.
But if faceless interactions on football terraces could be improved I hope the same can be true of social media.

To bring this back to the point, I think far too much is being attributed to "gamers" as a whole when some dickheads with poor impulse control start hurling abuse at people on twitter (let alone sending death threats - but, again, that's not limited to gamers).

The abuse some people are facing over this is atrocious and quite possibly criminal but I don't think there's any argument to be had in how it pertains to games or gamers. I think it's certainly part of a larger debate how to handle raising children with a really tricky set of technological hurdles that have appeared lately, how numerous different aspects of the law that pertain to the internet need to be reviewed and how our reactions to offenders are policed, on a social and informal basis but also by the law.

It's as plain as the nose in your face that there are problems in the relationships between developers (be they indie or massive corporations) and the media. Whether that can be attributed to "growing pains" as Johnny Ultimate put it or outright criminality will become clearer in the fullness of time but I don't think it can be just swept away, regardless if some of the claims are hyperbolic or even downright false.
It's no surprise that a certain amount of circlejerking has taken root on reddit and has quite possibly made a mountain out of a mole-hill in some cases, but in this case it's clearly underpinned by a legitimate complaint.

It's also obvious to anyone with a shred of common sense that there is a pretty large element of psedo-intellectual bull**** involved in the "games are all misogynist" side of the fence and, equally, quite a lot of genuine misogyny on the other. But just as the bull****ters can't be conflated with all people who value actual equality, being a "gamer" can't be conflated with the sort who post on The Red Pill.
The problem with the faceless tribalism is that if you attack the nonsense on either "side" people who might ordinarily be able to talk to each other end up pulled along with the crazies if they're not being really careful.

Bleugh. Bit of a ramble in the end but I've been following this for the last week and needed to throw something down, for myself if nothing else.

kunst nugget

Gbear wrote: »

It's as plain as the nose in your face that there are problems in the relationships between developers (be they indie or massive corporations) and the media. Whether that can be attributed to "growing pains" as Johnny Ultimate put it or outright criminality will become clearer in the fullness of time but I don't think it can be just swept away, regardless if some of the claims are hyperbolic or even downright false.
It's no surprise that a certain amount of circlejerking has taken root on reddit and has quite possibly made a mountain out of a mole-hill in some cases, but in this case it's clearly underpinned by a legitimate complaint.

I don't think it's growing pains nor do I think it's unique to the gaming. Name me one arm of the entertainment industry that doesn't have networking, promotion and fraternization - I think the problem is that the gaming industry is probably more au fait with technology and social media and this friendliness between the different areas is easier to see and trace. I'm not talking about ZQ trading blowjobs for positive reviews or whatever the claim is at this stage - I'm talking about bog standard promotion here. The fact of the matter is that people aren't going to come to you to see the beautiful product you've created - you're going to have to go out there and promote it. The fact that people find this shocking is something I find puzzling.

Best singer of your generation? That's great but nobody got to hear you because you didn't get out there and make contacts and promote yourself. You've made the best short film of the last 10 years? Fantastic! What have you done to get it out there? Put it up on Youtube and waited for the adulation? Okay… People complaining that some indie games were getting preferential treatment because they promoted themselves better than others is really silly. If you're not willing to get out there and network and get yourself known that you have a snowball's chance in hell of receiving recognition of your talents.

Potatoeman

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Putting aside the latest conspiracy theory for a moment (which makes a huge amount of speculative leaps, as is to be expected), I reckon the existence of an independent development 'clique' (I use the term loosely) has actually been a good thing when it comes to independent gaming.

We're not talking about big, sinister corporations here, but rather a group of people united by a mutual interest in creating interesting and ambitious games and trying to get these games the attention they deserve. Call it a 'conflict of interest' if you will, but to me it's an inevitable thing considering how specific the field is and has had many positives. The whole indie scene only really came to fruition in 2008 or so with the release of games like Braid and World of Goo - with only a few successful titles out there, of course the creators were going to throw their support (financial and otherwise) behind the games they thought were interesting. And games like Fez, Papers Please and Monaco were interesting and in many cases brilliant and top of their game. They deserved the support & acclaim, and I don't see any evidence that any clique has actively excluded worthwhile games in favour of awarding friends.

Nonetheless, given how small the field was (and in many ways still is), of course many of the developers were going to know each other. And they actually threw their support behind each other in ways that benefited everyone who played the games. It's really encouraging to see characters from Gish, Braid, Bit.Trip and other games make appearances in Super Meat Boy, for example - it's showing a real sense of community between the developers of these titles and a willingness to support each other. The resources of the successful developers being used to support underdogs and games that really need the publicity? That's far more for good than evil IMO. It's ****ty if worthy games got overshadowed because of higher-profile candidates, but to be fair a quick glance at the IGF award winners over the years (even if a single year!) highlights a hugely diverse range of titles awarded - using a single (very good) game's (deserved) success to accuse the organisation of corruption seems like a pretty radical jump when the IGF awards seem to have benefited a significant number of games from all sorts of backgrounds. It has ensured a whole lot of fascinating games have been flagged as worthy of attention - an important thing when the signal:noise ratio is ever growing, and mainstream gaming media remains so dominated by coverage of AAA titles.

If there has been some suspect activity here - and again, 'innocent until proven guilty' remains a pretty solid mantra that has served society well - a lot of it can be attributed to growing pains in what is still a young, evolving and - crucially - niche field. And above all these games have had a very positive effect on the quality of gaming in general, so they seem like very strange targets to pick on. It's almost as if the games have gotten obscured in favour of attempts to discredit a handful of individuals.

The game award thing is qestionable. If I paid a hundred quid to enter a competition and the judges and winner had the same PR agent I would be pissed. Thats a pretty big conflict of interest. Some developers even reported that some judges didnt play their games.