The big Phil Fish, Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian discussion thread

johnny_ultimate

In the realm of criticism (which we should perhaps separate from 'journalism' to a degree), there's always going to be relationships both personal and professional that exist between writers and game-makers - again, it's that mutual bond shared by people interested in the same thing, whether they're creators or commentators. Roger Ebert was noted to be friends with Werner Herzog, yet he was still able to offer excellent reviews of Herzog's films. I understand from his writing and videos that major East Asian film expert Tony Rayns has professional relationships and friendships with key filmmakers like Jia Zhangke, but again his passion and enthusiasm for the films means he continues to offer pretty much the most engaged, intelligent commentary on and readings of the films themselves. In these cases, it's beneficial for viewers that critics are both actively promoting the work of these filmmakers and writing about their work, and I don't feel the relationships and 'vested interests' that might exist undermine the strong critical work being done (especially important in areas such as Chinese cinema that are nearly completely ignored in even enthusiast film coverage). In some cases, a close relationship with the creator can even enhance the depth and insight of the criticism by providing fresh perspectives on the filmmaker's intentions and motivations.

I see no reason why a similar sort of situation won't emerge with gaming, especially independent. I for one want critics to be passionate, supportive of and engaged with the games they're covering, and again I have no problem with them forging friendships with the developers as they're passionate about the same things (and who wouldn't want to be friends with people with the some sort of fascinations and interests as you?). It's part and parcel of a rich and diverse critical space, especially in niches or individual cases that need all the active support they can get.

There are natural limits - when the commentary becomes dishonest, when there's conscious manipulation for a good review or the commercial interests of positive coverage become more insidious. A reasonable degree of transparency is also welcome in these matters, although without needing to impact the privacy and personal relationships of the people involved. A good critic will always know their personal and professional limits and their boundaries (Ebert put it well). And in extreme cases of romantic relationships, for example, the writer should definitely step back and pass the baton to someone else.

I think Mike Williams over at USgamer has a very sensible, informed take on journalism and ethics in relation to gaming. It's well worth a read: http://www.usgamer.net/articles/lets-talk-about-gamergate-and-journalism

kunst nugget

So did the release of Destiny kill off all the gamergate stuff?

Timmyctc

kunst nugget wrote: »

So did the release of Destiny kill off all the gamergate stuff?

hopefully

Generic Dreadhead

kunst nugget wrote: »

So did the release of Destiny kill off all the gamergate stuff?

Yup... Yay for Games again :pac:

Potatoeman

It seems some sites are reviewing their ethics policies. As I said earlier its not too much to state that you are friends with someone whose game you are reviewing.

The whole social justice warrior kickback thing seems to be in full swing still in other sites outside of gaming.

Status Offline

kunst nugget wrote: »

So did the release of Destiny kill off all the gamergate stuff?

No,lol. Now there's rumors of racketeering, corruption in some indie awards show that has little to no impact on anything, Fish being investigated by the FBI, Kotaku being in league with feminist aliens,Joe Rogan is starting to cover the whole thing, Kotaku and Polygon are supposedly having advertisers with draw from their sites because of an organized mailing campaign and a load of right wing political types, who normally rant about games being evil and responsible for shootings in school, have joined in on the side of gamers against the evil left winger.
All the while angry MS fanboys and probably some PC fanboys have been trolling people about how crap Destiny is and trying to manipulate the score on Metacritic....all in all,it's pretty much business as usual in the world of gaming.

kunst nugget

Status Offline wrote: »

No,lol. Now there's rumors of racketeering, corruption in some indie awards show that has little to no impact on anything, Fish being investigated by the FBI.

Ha, just reading about that online after seeing it mentioned here. That really is gas. The conspiracy theories get dumber and dumber by the day. I can see the headlines now 'Canadian Game Developer extradited over favourable result in Indie Game Festival!!!'

Retr0gamer

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

I think Mike Williams over at USgamer has a very sensible, informed take on journalism and ethics in relation to gaming. It's well worth a read: http://www.usgamer.net/articles/lets-talk-about-gamergate-and-journalism

I'd say usgamer is very level headed about their ethics. Jeremy Parish is the editor and I know he wouldn't review a lot of games because he was good friends with people who worked on them, I know there's one game he didn't review because he was the best man to the guy the was head of the localisation and marketing project.

richymcdermott

I dont trust any of the journalist because alot of them are only after free stuff and to make a name for themselves and reach higher job positions. Alot of them , to me seem like to me they do not know what videogames are and only play the AAA games from the ps2-ps3 era and only got into videogame journalism because when they left college they could not get the jobs they originally planned out for.

Potatoeman

Status Offline wrote: »

No,lol. Now there's rumors of racketeering, corruption in some indie awards show that has little to no impact on anything, Fish being investigated by the FBI, Kotaku being in league with feminist aliens,Joe Rogan is starting to cover the whole thing, Kotaku and Polygon are supposedly having advertisers with draw from their sites because of an organized mailing campaign and a load of right wing political types, who normally rant about games being evil and responsible for shootings in school, have joined in on the side of gamers against the evil left winger.
All the while angry MS fanboys and probably some PC fanboys have been trolling people about how crap Destiny is and trying to manipulate the score on Metacritic....all in all,it's pretty much business as usual in the world of gaming.

Its going to be very funny to watch. I think some people with very far left leaning views will find themselves on their own like people on the very far right.

kunst nugget

Potatoeman wrote: »

Its going to be very funny to watch. I think some people with very far left leaning views will find themselves on their own like people on the very far right.

What do you define as very far right and very far left. Socialism? Anarchism? Communism? Feminism? Neoliberalism? Nationalism? Fascism? Christian Fundamentalism?

Potatoeman

kunst nugget wrote: »

What do you define as very far right and very far left. Socialism? Anarchism? Communism? Feminism? Neoliberalism? Nationalism? Fascism? Christian Fundamentalism?

There are lots of exterme views out there at present that have co-opted some good causes. Ableism springs to mind. It was origionally about treating people with disabilities with respect and has been turned into a 'check your privilage' cause.

kunst nugget

Potatoeman wrote: »

There are lots of exterme views out there at present that have co-opted some good causes. Ableism springs to mind. It was origionally about treating people with disabilities with respect and has been turned into a 'check your privilage' cause.

It has always happened and always will - a good reason not to lump everyone into any one group and instead listen to the values they actually espouse. For instance, if someone says they are a feminist and there belief is that everyone should have equal rights, that doesn't mean that the throw their oar in with the 'all penetrative sex is rape' crowd. Probably the most infantile part of the whole gamergate thing was the utterly reductive labelling of anyone that had an opposing views. 'Ah man, all those SJW feminists…' or 'Ah man, all those neckbeard gamers...'

Some people are going to just parrot whatever their peers or the party line is without actually engaging with a topic and thinking for themselves but there ain't nothing you can do about that crowd.

Potatoeman

kunst nugget wrote: »

Some people are going to just parrot whatever their peers or the party line is without actually engaging with a topic and thinking for themselves but there ain't nothing you can do about that crowd.

Seems to be these people being called out.

DeVore

"An idea isn't responsible for the people who believe in it".

Gbear

Potatoeman wrote: »

Seems to be these people being called out.

A lot of people seem to be deaf to the irony of calling out people who tar all gamers with the same brush and, in the next sentence, tarring all "feminists" with the same brush.

There's a lot of good energy in the whole, ehh... movement, or whatever you want to call it, but the way a lot of the debates on reddit get bogged down in name-calling and other ****e makes for some frustrating reading.

Little CuChulainn

Gbear wrote: »

A lot of people seem to be deaf to the irony of calling out people who tar all gamers with the same brush and, in the next sentence, tarring all "feminists" with the same brush.

There's no irony there. Feminism is a specific political movement, gaming isn't. Being a gamer does not mean you have chosen any political viewpoint, being a feminist does.

kunst nugget

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

There's no irony there. Feminism is a specific political movement, gaming isn't. Being a gamer does not mean you have chosen any political viewpoint, being a feminist does.

But feminism isn't one specific movement, it's an umbrella term for a lot of differing ideologies. Like saying you're right or left wing. Those terms by themselves are kinda meaningless.

Potatoeman

Gbear wrote: »

A lot of people seem to be deaf to the irony of calling out people who tar all gamers with the same brush and, in the next sentence, tarring all "feminists" with the same brush.

There's a lot of good energy in the whole, ehh... movement, or whatever you want to call it, but the way a lot of the debates on reddit get bogged down in name-calling and other ****e makes for some frustrating reading.

I mean specifically there are a lot of people being pilled up on now for being social justice warriors.

wes

Interview with Fine Young Capitalists and the various issues they had with the game jam. Interesting read:

Truth In Gaming: An Interview with The Fine Young Capitalists

Anyway gives there version of events in regards to the controversy.

Randall Floyd

Not sure how relevant it is but this is a fairly interesting video looking at the journalist/developer relationship in the games industry.

Little CuChulainn

kunst nugget wrote: »

But feminism isn't one specific movement, it's an umbrella term for a lot of differing ideologies. Like saying you're right or left wing. Those terms by themselves are kinda meaningless.

Whichever meaning you take it to be, a specific movement or an umbrella movement, it still is not comparable in anyway to gaming which is simply an entertainment activity.

HeathenWolf

My biggest issue is with the gaming "journalists" that have written articles attacking gamers, their own audience, but yet are still willing to get paid to write articles for the "misogynists" that they apparently hold such contempt for.

Retr0gamer

HeathenWolf wrote: »

My biggest issue is with the gaming "journalists" that have written articles attacking gamers, their own audience, but yet are still willing to get paid to write articles for the "misogynists" that they apparently hold such contempt for.

So by that logic it's not ok to write about football if you criticise football hooligans.

HeathenWolf

Retr0gamer wrote: »

So by that logic it's not ok to write about football if you criticise football hooligans.

Football hooligans are a minority and sports journalists don't generalise about football fans whenever hooliganism occurs whereas the gaming media is generalising about male gamers being "misogynists" over all this, ignoring the fact that there are plenty of male gamers that support female game developers too.

Otacon

HeathenWolf wrote: »

Football hooligans are a minority and sports journalists don't generalise about football fans whenever hooliganism occurs whereas the gaming media is generalising about male gamers being "misogynists" over all this, ignoring the fact that there are plenty of male gamers that support female game developers too.

Reading beyond the headline of any of the articles you mention would show that the people these journalists are calling out are the loud minority too.

johnny_ultimate

HeathenWolf wrote: »

Football hooligans are a minority and sports journalists don't generalise about football fans whenever hooliganism occurs whereas the gaming media is generalising about male gamers being "misogynists" over all this, ignoring the fact that there are plenty of male gamers that support female game developers too.

Aren't you just generalising about the journalists generalising? :pac:

HeathenWolf

Otacon wrote: »

Reading beyond the headline of any of the articles you mention would show that the people these journalists are calling out are the loud minority too.

I am aware of that. But their interpretation of the loud minority also includes gamers that simply have a take on the situation that is different to theirs. The people that simply give their opinion on this are rounded up and have the "misogynist" label applied to them along with the actual minority of misogynists that are out there. The "journalists" know exactly what they are doing and it isn't one bit fair.

Sonics2k

My big issue with this whole thing is that because I disagree with Sarkeesian on a lot of her points I've been declared a mysogonist l, a woman hater and full of hatred for Anita herself.

****e like that is what pisses me off to no end.

COYVB

HeathenWolf wrote: »

The "journalists" know exactly what they are doing and it isn't one bit fair.

There's a large section of the mainstream north american game journalism industry that are, quite literally, terrified of saying ANYTHING negative about Sarkeesian or her points, whatever they actually believe. It's a one way ticket to being absolutely destroyed by her ravenous mob