The big Phil Fish, Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian discussion thread

HeathenWolf

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Aren't you just generalising about the journalists generalising? :pac:

Hmmm... Never thought about that one :P

HeathenWolf

COYVB wrote: »

There's a large section of the mainstream north american game journalism industry that are, quite literally, terrified of saying ANYTHING negative about Sarkeesian or her points, whatever they actually believe. It's a one way ticket to being absolutely destroyed by her ravenous mob

It's disgusting how figures like Anita are abusing their power within the industry in that way.

COYVB

Technically, it's not really her, it's those who have adopted her as some kind of deity. Sarkeesian is a commentator with an agenda that she likes to push hard, and fair play to her for it. She's managed to spin herself impeccably, and people have gobbled it up to an alarming extent. She hasn't done anything wrong apart from be vocal about what she believes

Gbear

Sonics2k wrote: »

My big issue with this whole thing is that because I disagree with Sarkeesian on a lot of her points I've been declared a mysogonist l, a woman hater and full of hatred for Anita herself.

****e like that is what pisses me off to no end.

The vast majority of people can't be arsed to engage in debate. They're perfectly happy to masquerade as intellectuals though.

They join whatever team superficially suits them but aren't willing to put in the legwork to justify it.

HeathenWolf

True. She is the deity of the gaming press and her agenda is seeping out through the words of terrified game journalists that would never dare question her.

Timmyctc

Its happened in this thread loads. People have been saying *paraphrasing* "The crux of her argument is correct so whats the point nitpicking her actual points" its essentially saying "She's pointed out sexism in the industry; it doesn't matter what points she's claimed in the process" Much of her points are incorrect but the basic concept of her arguement is correct imo. Its stupid. There's been lots of strawmanning in this thread surrounding her.

There's actually been lots of strawmanning in general from the "most gaming is sexist" crowd. Who are, imo, mostly incorrect

The whole brigade against AC:Unity is epitomises this imo.
"DESIGN US A CHARACTER EVEN THOUGH WE DONT UNDERSTAND THE CONCEPT NOR WHAT IT TAKES TO DEVELOP A CHARACTER/ A CHARACTER'S STORY FOR A GAME" etc

COYVB

I'll still argue that it's not sexism at all, but rather limited male storytellers making games for a predominantly male market. That's not sexism, it's just a rubbish storytelling. Blokes with limited imagination are unlikely to be able to adequately tell a reasonable narrative from a female perspective, because they're not good storytellers to begin with.

The industry doesn't need less uber machismo, roided-up, save the wimmins games. It just needs more games with actual intelligent stories.

When bilge like David Cage's stuff is lauded as being among the top end of storytelling, you've got a problem, and that problem ain't sexism

Retr0gamer

Rubbish storytelling might be a big contributing factor but its still sexism even if the author isn't aware that what they are creating can be perceived that way. Also the fact that it is rife and accepted is a major issue that needs to be addressed and also the affects this has on society. Unfortunately all Anita is really dealing with is that it's rife within the industry. There's other impotortant issues tat need to be addressed as well like exposing the root causes of this sexism and the treatment of female developers by an anonymous Internet culture and also in the boys club of development where there's been a lot of horror stories. There's also issues with how female gamers are treated in the competitive scene, that street fighter documentary was appalling.

The industry is full of sexism, some of it is mostly harmless (although that needs to be explored) but there's some extremely damaging examples as well, most of which are far more important than the content of videogames. All Anita is really doing at the moment is pointing out the sexist content in videogames, stuff that is very damaging to females exposed to it, another area that is left unexplored. The focus is more on how these sexist tropes can lead to misogynistic tendencies in males, something that Anita doesn't even explore fully and far from satisfactorily. I'd even say its a footnote she barely touches on.

COYVB

So is any story with a damsel in distress saved by a man, or with a man spurred on by the death of his wife sexist then?

Or does it only become sexist if there's a lot of those stories classified together in s medium?

COYVB

Retr0gamer wrote: »

its still sexism even if the author isn't aware that what they are creating can be perceived that way

Have to pull you up on this... wut?!?

It's still sexist even if it's not sexist is essentially what you're saying there? That if someone, somewhere perceives it as sexist, it is therefore sexist?

Well sir, that post is nothing but racist

:P

Retr0gamer

COYVB wrote: »

So is any story with a damsel in distress saved by a man, or with a man spurred on by the death of his wife sexist then?

Or does it only become sexist if there's a lot of those stories classified together in s medium?

That's way too generalised to be answered it depends on how the story is told and if there are trends in a medium where said sexist trope is appearing a lot the it's worth exploring to find out the origins and why it's so prevalent.

COYVB wrote: »

Have to pull you up on this... wut?!?

It's still sexist even if it's not sexist is essentially what you're saying there? That if someone, somewhere perceives it as sexist, it is therefore sexist?

Well sir, that post is nothing but racist

:P

Well you totally missed the point of what I said. The author might not realise what they are writing is sexist/racist/etcist but it doesn't mean it isn't. Again they might not realise this and it's worth looking into how society and culture can lead to an environment and mindset where people cannot see that what they are saying is sexist or can think hat it is the norm.

johnny_ultimate

There's a major difference between isolated cases and the emergence of tropes. In terms of the representations of women, the more prevalent a trope is the more potential it has to shape some people's attitudes, accessibility and perspectives. More than that, though - and this ties in to point about deeper problems with gaming storytelling - the duller it becomes. This can be expanded well beyond representational issues, and right to gameplay mechanics. QTEs, online shooter RPG-style progression systems, cover shooting - these were in some cases novel and clever tools, but have become so ubiquitous as to be frustrating and repetitive. A storytelling tool equally can be damaged by overuse - many of the tropes identified by Sarkeesian would be far less objectionable and even potentially much more dramatically useful if they were invoked rarely. But when they graduate to the realm of common, overused tropes, the discussion and potential effects will inevitably shift.

Slapping a bow on a male character to create a female equivalent might be amusingly ridiculous and irreverent first time around, but that becomes more of a problem when dozens of titles use that or similar shortcuts as their primary (and in some cases only) means of defining women.

Retr0gamer

Games are not about story though. A lot of Ames just use story as a simple way to set up the gameplay, for example mario rescuing the princess. Here's the reason why mario needs to get through these levels go have fun. I don't really see how something lie that could be in anyway damaging to society when any fairly level headed person can't take it seriously. Not done a whole lot of looking into the research there but what I've seen is really flimsy.

When you get into games with more emphasise on story then you have stuff like Madison's portrayal in Heavy Rain which is pretty disgusting and would be far more if an issue and potentially could affect male attitudes. When looking at this it really should be compared to the work done on film, literature and advertising since there's parallels there.

Kirby

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Games are not about story though....

I think this should read "SOME games are not about story" or perhaps "I don't like games that are about story".

Some of us like games that are heavily story based.

johnny_ultimate

More games are becoming more interested in narrative, in some cases much more so than the mechanics (Gone Home, Dear Esther). The likes of Papers, Please, Mass Effect and Journey are making valiant attempts at closing the gap that has almost always existed between the 'game' and 'storytelling' (occasional exceptions like Another World or Ico aside) - sometimes it fails, but it often has some incredibly exciting results. Has there ever been a game that marries narrative and gameplay as satisfyingly as Papers, Please? Simply put, games are getting more expressive and ambitious. With that in mind, it's increasingly important that developers analyse and understand what has come before, and figure out how they can expand, subvert, embrace and dismiss existing modes and models of interactive storytelling. I think that's one of the main benefits of a themed identification such as the Tropes... series, and it has IMO real value in helping establish the way we talk about game stories.

Mario, I'd argue, does have a story. It is simple and perfunctory, absolutely, and barely present for most of the playing (at least in the early games - it's more invasive in the likes of Mario Galaxy). But it does have a narrative nonetheless - it has a protagonist with a goal who has to overcome obstacles and face a devious antagonist. It's storytelling 101, really, and certainly worthy of identification and criticism if it feeds into more general modes and trends of gaming 'storytelling' (which it does). There are, of course, games that do forfeit narrative pretty much entirely - something like Tetris or Tony Hawks Pro Skater (in the pre-****ty days) - and others that have such light and haphazard contextualising that they make Mario seem like a Dickens novel :pac:

Even if one does accept that many games are not about story, that doesn't mean they're automatically immune to critique either. Taking an extreme example, porn isn't about storytelling (at least I hope that's the general consensus :pac:) but that has created incredibly complex and potentially dangerous representational issues. Thank god video games aren't at that point - some unpleasant exceptions aside! But these concerns aren't just limited to the basic plot or characterisation in games. The series is pitifully and rather embarrassingly backwards in terms of how it portrays women (if any game deserves accusations of actually being creepily misogynistic...), but it's more how they exist and are treated in the gameworld rather than being ill-served by the plot. That's what the whole 'women as background objects' trope tries to examine I think - how representational issues affect world-building and environmental storytelling just as much as the basic A->B plot.

Potatoeman

Sonics2k wrote: »

My big issue with this whole thing is that because I disagree with Sarkeesian on a lot of her points I've been declared a mysogonist l, a woman hater and full of hatred for Anita herself.

****e like that is what pisses me off to no end.

It's a great way to shut down discussion on the topic though. Which is what they want to do. Sarkeesian is a third wave feminist and her ideals are out in the extreme borders of feminism. It's far easier for her supporters to call someone a misogynist than to try and argue their ideals.

Someone posted a ted talk link earlier where one of the points made was that GTA is sexist because none of the main characters are women. Does that make it racist too as none of the playable characters are asain?
It's such a jump in logic that is so ridiculous that it undermines the whole topic. There are far more things that he could have pointed to. This is kind of the problem with Sarkeesian's videos they jump from a to pi.

B0jangles

I've asked this before and no-one would answer - what specifically has Anita Sarkeesian said that makes her an extreme feminist?

All I've seen is the videos where she talks about tropes in games and they are about as extreme as a mug of warm milk.

kunst nugget

B0jangles wrote: »

I've asked this before and no-one would answer - what specifically has Anita Sarkeesian said that makes her an extreme feminist?

All I've seen is the videos where she talks about tropes in games and they are about as extreme as a mug of warm milk.

Yeah, I can't say I've seen anything extreme in the videos. If you want the extreme end, check out the PIV is rape crowd.

http://witchwind.wordpress.com/2013/12/15/piv-is-always-rape-ok/

kunst nugget

Sonics2k wrote: »

My big issue with this whole thing is that because I disagree with Sarkeesian on a lot of her points I've been declared a mysogonist l, a woman hater and full of hatred for Anita herself.

****e like that is what pisses me off to no end.

Just out of curiosity, where has that happened to you?

Tbf, outside of this thread I haven't bothered discussing it online because most debate from both sides seems extraordinarily infantile.

B0jangles

kunst nugget wrote: »

Yeah, I can't say I've seen anything extreme in the videos. If you want the extreme end, check out the PIV is rape crowd.

http://witchwind.wordpress.com/2013/12/15/piv-is-always-rape-ok/

Ok, those are some very weird people.

Sonics2k

kunst nugget wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, where has that happened to you?

Tbf, outside of this thread I haven't bothered discussing it online because most debate from both sides seems extraordinarily infantile.

Kotaku, IGN, Twitter and sadly on The Verge, a site I used to love visiting. It was insinuated to me earlier in this thread too a "hysterical level of hate"

The debate is extremely infantile in a lot of places. You have nuts on both sides freaking out at the other side, with cries of mysogoney and feminazism stifling out the actual issue.

I'd say there is a level of sexism in gaming, but certainly not malicious, more bad writing that caters to a certain group. That isn't real sexism, rather laziness IMO.

Sonics2k

kunst nugget wrote: »

Yeah, I can't say I've seen anything extreme in the videos. If you want the extreme end, check out the PIV is rape crowd.

http://witchwind.wordpress.com/2013/12/15/piv-is-always-rape-ok/

These are the psycho exceptional kind, the lunatics with severe issues that give actual feminists, like my own mothers, a bad name.

kunst nugget

Sonics2k wrote: »

Kotaku, IGN, Twitter and sadly on The Verge, a site I used to love visiting. It was insinuated to me earlier in this thread too a "hysterical level of hate"

Tbf, there are torrents of abuse directed at her but, for me anyways, that doesn't mean that having a differing opinion on her videos and to be able to have a calm debate is the same as some of the shrill hectoring that is going on about the whole tropes series. Maybe others see it different, I don't know…

Sonics2k wrote: »

The debate is extremely infantile in a lot of places. You have nuts on both sides freaking out at the other side, with cries of mysogoney and feminazism stifling out the actual issue.

That stuff is completely pointless. That's why I haven't bothered engaging with outside of this thread.

Sonics2k wrote: »

I'd say there is a level of sexism in gaming, but certainly not malicious, more bad writing that caters to a certain group. That isn't real sexism, rather laziness IMO.

I think it is sexism, I just don't think the intention is misogynistic (a word that is completely overused at this point!) but rather one borne out of laziness like you said. It really is a case of seeing how if developers take it on board without descending into tokenism.

kunst nugget

Sonics2k wrote: »

These are the psycho exceptional kind, the lunatics with severe issues that give actual feminists, like my own mothers, a bad name.

I just posted it to show some context in terms of people calling Anita Sarkeesian an extreme feminist.

VinLieger

Sarkeesians not an extreme feminist by any means just an incredibly annoying one.

Id just be happy if people would keep their ridiculous PC politics out of my games and leave me alone.

And before people jump on me for being mysoginist i agree the industry is hostile to women but this whole situation is just entrenching the loudest and most misogynistic of those involved more and more in their views which brings the polar opposite feminist versions of them into the mix and thusly we end up with the current ****storm of hate and vitriole being thrown across the aisle and nothing being achieved apart from embarrassing the entire industry and culture.

Also I truly believe Sarkeesian at least is in this much more for getting her face and name out there to make money than anything else.

DeVore

Yeah if her real goal was to raise awareness and tackle the problem of misogyny in games ... she went about it about as badly as possible. Do you think things are better or worse than before??

If her goal was to gain notoriety amongst her peers... bingo!

B0jangles

As far as I can tell, she has made a series of youtube videos pointing out aspects of videogames that she thinks demonstrate sexism in games.

She didn't buy ad space in games to forcing "gamers" to watch her videos, she didn't stop any games being published, heck, she hasn't made any aspect of any game change to be more inclusive.

She made some videos. A great many "gamers" went ballistic because she dared to criticize games.

The more I read about it, the more her detractors seem to be behaving like hardcore Justin Bieber fans.

kunst nugget

DeVore wrote: »

Yeah if her real goal was to raise awareness and tackle the problem of misogyny in games ... she went about it about as badly as possible. Do you think things are better or worse than before??

If her goal was to gain notoriety amongst her peers... bingo!

My guess is she was trying to do to games what others have with cinema over the past thirty/forty years or so in terms of feminist theory, be a bit trailblazer and reap the rewards with TED talk infamy which promptly blew up in her face. Sure, she's exposed misogyny in gaming but not through any cogent arguments in her YouTube videos.

Tbh, I don't care if her motives were money or infamy or some higher calling and there's a lot of shaky ground in the videos but I can appreciate a different viewpoint to games. One, which away from the hysteria, I've seen interesting arguments about and it's been good to see people on here verbalise their thoughts on gaming and issues around it.

DeVore

Agreed. Why the response to her videos couldn't have been "Hmmm, you've got a point but your approach and presentation are lacking. *click*" ... I dunno.

Sieghardt

My problem was she seemed to ignore or not understand game mechanics that completely subvert the point she's trying to make

like for example, in Binary Domain, if you hit on the hooker, your friendship with most characters goes down, they think less of you for it, it completely subverts the trope but she still used it as an example.