The big Phil Fish, Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian discussion thread

COYVB

Semi related to that, quite frankly, awful FYC post, I do think there's a point hidden among the garbage. Quinn didn't develop a game. She wrote some text and hyperlinked it together with some music on top. She didn't even write the html code for it, she used an "engine" that takes the only vague technical requirements of the whole project off the table. It's not a game, by any realistic definition of the word, and yet it's getting reams and reams of coverage, getting her the title of "developer" and making her, by the looks of that post, semi decent money for not doing much at all, while there are other female game developers out there doing so much more, but getting zero coverage.

The narrative and purpose of Depression Quest are excellent. Living with someone who suffers with depression it's well wrought and touches on most of the things it needs to in order to educate and inform. It's a noble project, but jesus she's no more a game developer because of it than I am for working in publishing.

For someone who's very much making the most of pushing herself towards being at the forefront of females in the industry, she's hardly representative of, well, anyone, in game development, and I can't see how this putting her on a pedestal because of that game that we're seeing helps anyone other than Zoe Quinn.

She's working on other stuff that's much more relevant to the title game development, but still not exactly new or unique, so at least focus on that side of her work IMO

Potatoeman

COYVB wrote: »

Semi related to that, quite frankly, awful FYC post, I do think there's a point hidden among the garbage. Quinn didn't develop a game. She wrote some text and hyperlinked it together with some music on top. She didn't even write the html code for it, she used an "engine" that takes the only vague technical requirements of the whole project off the table. It's not a game, by any realistic definition of the word, and yet it's getting reams and reams of coverage, getting her the title of "developer" and making her, by the looks of that post, semi decent money for not doing much at all, while there are other female game developers out there doing so much more, but getting zero coverage.

The narrative and purpose of Depression Quest are excellent. Living with someone who suffers with depression it's well wrought and touches on most of the things it needs to in order to educate and inform. It's a noble project, but jesus she's no more a game developer because of it than I am for working in publishing.

For someone who's very much making the most of pushing herself towards being at the forefront of females in the industry, she's hardly representative of, well, anyone, in game development, and I can't see how this putting her on a pedestal because of that game that we're seeing helps anyone other than Zoe Quinn.

She's working on other stuff that's much more relevant to the title game development, but still not exactly new or unique, so at least focus on that side of her work IMO

Didnt it get greenlit on steam even though its a browser game? I would be gutted if my game was passed over for that. Its a nice idea but I dont think I could justifying paying for what should be a website.

COYVB

It was rejected first time around, no doubt followed up with a barrage of abuse for being misogynist pigs for not allowing it on, before it passed second time.

I hate the idea that everything can't be taken on it individual merits rather than who's behind it, and what level of backing they have from different groups

gizmo

COYVB wrote: »

Semi related to that, quite frankly, awful FYC post, I do think there's a point hidden among the garbage. Quinn didn't develop a game. She wrote some text and hyperlinked it together with some music on top. She didn't even write the html code for it, she used an "engine" that takes the only vague technical requirements of the whole project off the table. It's not a game, by any realistic definition of the word, and yet it's getting reams and reams of coverage, getting her the title of "developer" and making her, by the looks of that post, semi decent money for not doing much at all, while there are other female game developers out there doing so much more, but getting zero coverage.

The narrative and purpose of Depression Quest are excellent. Living with someone who suffers with depression it's well wrought and touches on most of the things it needs to in order to educate and inform. It's a noble project, but jesus she's no more a game developer because of it than I am for working in publishing.

It got her reams of coverage because, as you said yourself, the narrative and purpose of DQ are excellent. She then received further coverage when she became embroiled in this utter ****storm online. Much like the Sarkeesian's Kickstarter, had it not been for the vitriolic response from some sectors of the gaming community neither would never have gotten so much attention.

As for whether she's a developer or not. Evidently she's an artist, writer and some form of coder given the contents of her website. She's also done some QA on two titles. If I was referring to someone with that skillset in the industry, regardless of how I rated the individual talents, I'd call them a developer.

COYVB wrote: »

For someone who's very much making the most of pushing herself towards being at the forefront of females in the industry, she's hardly representative of, well, anyone, in game development, and I can't see how this putting her on a pedestal because of that game that we're seeing helps anyone other than Zoe Quinn.

Again, is she actually pushing herself towards such a goal? Before DQ had you even heard of her? Is it not more accurate to say she has been thrust to the forefront of females in the industry because of all this regardless of how poor a representation of other female developers she is?

COYVB wrote: »

It was rejected first time around, no doubt followed up with a barrage of abuse for being misogynist pigs for not allowing it on, before it passed second time.

I hate the idea that everything can't be taken on it individual merits rather than who's behind it, and what level of backing they have from different groups

As far as I'm aware she withdrew it from Greenlight after receiving said barrage of abuse.

As for your second point. If Framed does well at Indiecade then I imagine things will kick off again for precisely those reasons.

Genghiz Cohen

gizmo wrote: »

As for whether she's a developer or not. Evidently she's an artist, writer and some form of coder given the contents of her website. She's also done some QA on two titles. If I was referring to someone with that skillset in the industry, regardless of how I rated the individual talents, I'd call them a developer.

Hey, hey!
You DO NOT get to lump QA in with Developers.

K.O.Kiki

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

Hey, hey!
You DO NOT get to lump QA in with Developers.

I've done QA and can agree with this :pac:

K.O.Kiki

Another good article: http://techcrunch.com/2014/09/25/gamergate-an-issue-with-2-sides/

Timmyctc

gizmo wrote: »

The narrative and purpose of DQ are excellent.

Lets just slow down here. The narrative in DQ is good. It isn't excellent by any means. The game is essentially hyperlinked text and there's still grammatical errors and the like. The Purpose is very good also. But people are going way OTT with their praise of the game. It gave a good idea of what Depression is like for a lot of people but it was certainly not done excellently.

COYVB

Timmyctc wrote: »

But people are going way OTT with their praise of the game.

Simply calling it a game is going way OTT imo. It's no more a game than Facebook

the incredible pudding

Can we avoid the horrible, horrible discussion on whether something is a game or not? This topic is already filled with enough pointless negativity and conflict.

COYVB

Just noticed with Framed that it's not her game, and she only joined up as "narrative director" a few months ago for a game that was already in good shape and well on the way to completion

COYVB

the incredible pudding wrote: »

Can we avoid the horrible, horrible discussion on whether something is a game or not? This topic is already filled with enough pointless negativity and conflict.

It's a gaming forum, shall we also discuss cars and call them games too?

the incredible pudding

COYVB wrote: »

It's a gaming forum, shall we also discuss cars and call them games too?

I don't want to stop you from having the discussion but it leads down a very, very long road that could maybe deserve it's own thread? This topic is dense enough as it is, that's all I'm saying.

johnny_ultimate

COYVB wrote: »

Simply calling it a game is going way OTT imo.

I'm not sure how that's the case. The text 'adventure' (I use the term lightly in this case) is one of the oldest genres of video games, and if anything Depression Quest offers significantly more variables and player agency than the oldies that required often incredibly specific inputs to progress in a linear direction. Yes, it is a pre-determined, multiple choice narrative, but pretty much all game stories are, even great ones that offer large amounts of choice. Many games, such as many visual novels, effectively consist of nothing but hyperlinked text, with relatively static accompanying visuals.

'Choice' is what I think Depression Quest handles best of all - players, designers and critics alike are often obsessed with the idea, and yet Depression Quest takes a really interesting and thematically appropriate step by actively restricting choice and explicitly highlighting the fact to emphasise its narrative intentions. It's a straightforward but effective twist that to me highlights that the designers and writers are well versed in the mechanics of gaming and able to apply them cleverly.

That said, I don't think Depression Quest is a great game by any stretch (its biggest problem IMO is that its overwritten to the point of brute force, and I was also disappointed the different chapters often seemed disconnected from each other), and even within the limited 'text-based' game paradigm people like Christina Love are pushing gameplay boundaries quite a bit more. But I also don't think its good narrative and purpose are negligible qualities, especially when you look at the frankly embarrassing efforts at story in games like Destiny (a particularly grievous example, but sadly not alone). In fact, given how much storytelling in gaming has to grow up we're going to be seeing a lot more of these sort of intriguing but flawed experiments popping up. Interactive storytelling isn't going to simply evolve overnight, and I feel we need to encourage game-makers who try to create something personal and unique while also offering constructive criticism on the releases. And given we have games like That Dragon Cancer or Neverending Nightmare that are attempting to push these more involved narratives and themes while also offering more complex gameworlds and aesthetics, we're seeing more ambitious examples. I think the likes of Depression Quest feed into a wider dialogue about what games are capable of, and encourage people to do better and better (and certainly with DQ there's plenty of room for improvement).

I personally feel setting strict parameters for what defines a 'game' or a 'gamer' all amount to little more than a futile exercise in pedantry. One thing gamergate and its associate controversies have proven - many of traditional understandings of the labels we use regularly are woefully inadequate to describe a medium and community that have diversified in all manner of different directions.

COYVB

I loved text adventures growing up, this is not a text adventure though. You have your options in front of you, spelled out clearly with a lot less choice. You're forced to process linearly too.

Depression quest is a website. She made a website and was called an indie game developer because of it. And she used the equivalent of wix to make that website.

Timmyctc

Sort've on topic,This could be interesting. Its an actual game inspired by OCD and Depression suffered by the dev I think. Its been greenlit on the Steam Store. (AND ITS AN ACTUAL GAME! :pac: )

gizmo

Timmyctc wrote: »

Lets just slow down here. The narrative in DQ is good. It isn't excellent by any means. The game is essentially hyperlinked text and there's still grammatical errors and the like. The Purpose is very good also. But people are going way OTT with their praise of the game. It gave a good idea of what Depression is like for a lot of people but it was certainly not done excellently.

With all due respect, you've completely misquoted me here. I was merely repeating what COYVB said in his post as a possible reason why the game has gotten such coverage. As I've said previously, I haven't played the game so I'm in absolutely no position to comment on its quality. All I can possibly do is point to the plaudits it received both before and after this controversy as a reason for its success.

As for judging DQ purely on a technical basis, the game is not a website. It was built in an engine, Twine, which publishes to HTML. Similarly, I've seen designers with absolutely zero code experience build games in Construct2 and publish to Kongregate. In neither case does it make it any less of a game.

COYVB

Ah come on gizmo, engine or not, depression quest is a website, plain and simple. If I use a special engine to render out my CV as a PDF it doesn't make it a game

shruikan2553

Had a look at depression quest. Haven't had time to go through it properly but I see no reason for it to be made outside of a browser. It is mostly text with links. It is simple HTML. Why would it be put anywhere outside of a browser makes no sense to me.

Potatoeman

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

Another good article: http://techcrunch.com/2014/09/25/gamergate-an-issue-with-2-sides/

The hashtag campaign has opened up a chasm between the gaming press and their audience

I would say they dug a ditch between themselves and their audience. It's turned into an either your with us or against us issue where most people are sitting on the side-lines waiting for the dust to clear before pointing fingers.

The youtubers and forums warriors may get heat over this but if you are a 'journalist' you better hope your house is in order when this settles as you have more to lose. As much as these journalist hate youtubers like InternetAristocrat actually discussing the issue (even as biased as some see it) rather than ignoring it this gives them ground with the audience and ultimately discussing the issue will be more accepted than ignoring it.

Timmyctc

gizmo wrote: »

With all due respect, you've completely misquoted me here. I was merely repeating what COYVB said in his post as a possible reason why the game has gotten such coverage. As I've said previously, I haven't played the game so I'm in absolutely no position to comment on its quality. All I can possibly do is point to the plaudits it received both before and after this controversy as a reason for its success.

As for judging DQ purely on a technical basis, the game is not a website. It was built in an engine, Twine, which publishes to HTML. Similarly, I've seen designers with absolutely zero code experience build games in Construct2 and publish to Kongregate. In neither case does it make it any less of a game.

With all due respect, I didnt misquote you at all. Your exact words were

It got her reams of coverage because, as you said yourself, the narrative and purpose of DQ are excellent.

You reiterated what he said as a statement, not a suggestion.

And come on now. Judging the game on its merits. It doesn't matter a tap what she designed it in. Its text on a white background, a looped mp3 playing over the top of it and the odd image superimposed in the background.

EDIT: Didn't read COYVB's post there. Basically, what he said.

gizmo

Timmyctc wrote: »

With all due respect, I didnt misquote you at all. Your exact words were

You reiterated what he said as a statement, not a suggestion.

You selectively quoted a line and changed the capitalisation so it appeared that I was the one that made the statement. That's misquoting. In the context of the reply, which is quite important in this case, COYVB made a comment regarding the reason why it has received so much coverage and then later went on to make that quote. Whether it's a game or not, I felt he had answered his own question, word for word, and replied as such.

Timmyctc wrote: »

And come on now. Judging the game on its merits. It doesn't matter a tap what she designed it in. Its text on a white background, a looped mp3 playing over the top of it and the odd image superimposed in the background.

I totally agree! TotalBiscuit said something similar and it seems perfectly reasonable.

Depression Quest is not a good videogame, but I tweeted about it because even though it wasn't a good game it did a good job of conveying a message about depression which is a very real thing that's touched those around me. It's a horrible condition that is misunderstood and any effort to raise awareness and understanding about it is positive in my opinion. Doesn't make DQ a good game, it's basically a choose your own adventure novel and should be treated as such.

COYVB wrote: »

Ah come on gizmo, engine or not, depression quest is a website, plain and simple. If I use a special engine to render out my CV as a PDF it doesn't make it a game

Of course not, a CV is neither a choose your own adventure nor a more traditional game. If you decide to apply for a Designer position some day though and you format your CV into some form of well written Twine adventure then I'm sure it'll get someone's attention. :pac:

Seriously though, I could rewrite Zork in a similar engine but with an input field and let the engine match up keywords with the same kinds of predefined responses used in something like DQ to progress. Would that make it any less of a game than the original?

COYVB

gizmo wrote: »

Seriously though, I could rewrite Zork in a similar engine but with an input field and let the engine match up keywords with the same kinds of predefined responses used in something like DQ to progress. Would that make it any less of a game than the original?

Yes. If it was a website.

Reekwind

COYVB wrote: »

Yes. If it was a website.

On the basis that 'browser games' aren't games? Really?

COYVB

Reekwind wrote: »

On the basis that 'browser games' aren't games? Really?

No, on the basis that something living online that's comprised only of text and hyperlinks is a website/document, not a video game

Generic Dreadhead

Or even a Pick your Own Adventure story.... online.... not in a book....

kunst nugget

COYVB wrote: »

No, on the basis that something living online that's comprised only of text and hyperlinks is a website/document, not a video game

But if it is then ported to the PS or Xbox, does it then become a game? I'm sure the likes of Blackbar could easily be converted to a website. Would it stop being a game then?

Genghiz Cohen

There's a good reason we didn't want the 'is and game/isn't a game' debate in here.

kunst nugget

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

There's a good reason we didn't want the 'is and game/isn't a game' debate in here.

Says who? I think it's a pertinent enough issue in this instance to talk about it.


Tbh, I've played it a bit and I wouldn't be recommending it…

Timmyctc

kunst nugget wrote: »

But if it is then ported to the PS or Xbox, does it then become a game? I'm sure the likes of Blackbar could easily be converted to a website. Would it stop being a game then?

Pretty sure you can open PDFs on a PS4. Doesn't make it a game.