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The big Phil Fish, Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian discussion thread
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Thanks for the germaine and measured response Gizmo - been very hesistant to post anything regarding this because I worried it would rapidly decline into a sh*tstorm.
Firstly, full context of the 'sleep with' comment hadn't been clearly to me - apologies for the misunderstanding on my part.
Regarding the scandals in game journalism/games developement, does it not show that we haven't learned enough from the past to avoid repeating it in the future if we're only seeing the same, tired, greed fueled stupidity year after year after year. Surely the fact that it keeps coming back is evidence that not enough has been done to stem it?
On a separate note, a subject which was touched briefly in the earlier patges of this thread was whether games, as art, should need to fulfill social criteria. Understand that I'm not approaching this from a "Hey, my prostitution game is an artistic expression of the subjectation of womoen in modern society!" but actually seriously. At what point, say, is the depiction of a human (male of female) in a state of undress in a game artistic rather then demeaning? If a developer is making a game based on Norse heroic sagas for example they would find few (though not no) examples 'action' female characters but thats a reflection surely of the milleiu rather then active sexism on the part of the game developer? I'm wary basically of us saying on one hand "games are art" and on the other saying "and art must follow a social agenda, one which we all agree is laudable".
To forestall people griefing me about this - I'll confess to not being academically instructed in this area and, as such, my considerations may be rather simplistic in the the context but I would also appreciate a debate style discussion on this, if nothing else to educate my own views
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Wow, this thing is still a thing that is actually going on?
I read numerous gaming sites/forums and know next to nothing about it because i avoid stories or threads on the subject other than this one and the real press isn't even bothering with it.
Can't understand why it's getting so much attention
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mickydoomsux wrote: »Can't understand why it's getting so much attention
Because some good points are being raised on both sides, albeit the most important one is coming from GG with regards to journalistic integrity0 -
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BlitzKrieg wrote: »wow that was well timed. it had been out there for so long I was waiting to see if anything else came from it or if it was all just focused on their response to gamergate.
reading through the article, it's a shame it's so poorly formatted but getting the general gist of it.
Got a few paragraphs in and i have no idea what it's about or why anyone should care.
Am i still allowed to play and enjoy videogames 0 -
Oh I wouldn't worry about that, everyone around here has been pretty level headed about the whole thing, regardless of what side of the fence they lean on.Thanks for the germaine and measured response Gizmo - been very hesistant to post anything regarding this because I worried it would rapidly decline into a sh*tstorm.
Well there's a couple of points here. Firstly most of my examples are from a few years ago so given the press coverage and associated backlash against them, one could reasonably assume most publishers realised such shady dealing with publications weren't worth it any more. Lesson learned? Well...Regarding the scandals in game journalism/games developement, does it not show that we haven't learned enough from the past to avoid repeating it in the future if we're only seeing the same, tired, greed fueled stupidity year after year after year. Surely the fact that it keeps coming back is evidence that not enough has been done to stem it?
With the growth of Youtube and marketing firms which cater to various forms of social media we've seen something of a resurgence of the practice, with campaigns such as Machinima's XB1M13 with Microsoft, EA and Ronku for Battlefield 4 and of course, the more recent Shadow of Mordor deal with Warner Bros and Plaid Social. What's more telling is that, in the latter case at least, traditional publications, online or otherwise, dealt with Warner Bros PR directly and were provided with review copies without such restrictions.
As for stemming it on the reporting side in general? When the original behaviour was called out, it stopped. One hopes that in the future if similar deals come out with regards Youtubers, the same rejection and publication takes places again. What I'd also like to see is the larger publications go after Warner Bros over it. It doesn't matter if SoM turned out to be a great game, that contract should never have existed. Was it's creation and application a decision directed to their external marketing firm by WB themselves or was the decision Plaid Social? Have they engaged in that behaviour for previous games that we don't know about? There are still lots of questions to be answered on that one and it's disappointing it hasn't gotten more coverage throughout this whole ethics/corruption kerfuffle.
Certainly agree with the first part, but I'm not quite sure on the second. While it's true that in many cases devs can make the games they want to make, it's impossible to deny the extremely strong influence from marketing and, as a direct result, the financial side, when it comes to planning/designing content. I think we can see a good example of this from the types of games which are being produced by smaller independent studios, whether they're coming from smaller more diverse publishers or self-published and whether they're made by ex-industry folk or newcomers to the industry.They should not. They should fulfill the aims of the people making the games, whatever they are. The market will determine whether or not they've got any other merits, whether artistic or otherwise.
That's one of my major problems with this whole thing. Developers are making the games they want to make, how they want to make them. If they're not making games that touch upon important aspects of society it's because they don't want to. That means there's a big old space in the market for anyone who DOES want to take that route. It's a free market, and nobody is preventing anyone from making any kind of game
Granted when you say developers you may mean decisions made by companies from the top down in which case they are making the games they want to make from the direction I described. :P
Aye, it's a pretty horrid case all right. I remember it being covered briefly at the time but I never saw any massive expose over it. Am I correct in assuming this particular accusation of collusion is centered around Dale North's comment on the GJP list in 2013? If so, I can't really see how he's in breach of the quoted Florida statute any more so than he would be for ringing up any of the other EiC's he knows and asking whether he should hire Pinsof.BlitzKrieg wrote: »wow that was well timed. it had been out there for so long I was waiting to see if anything else came from it or if it was all just focused on their response to gamergate.
reading through the article, it's a shame it's so poorly formatted but getting the general gist of it.0 -
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mickydoomsux wrote: »Got a few paragraphs in and i have no idea what it's about or why anyone should care.
i expected to be corrected on this but from what I've put together
Chloe Sagal ran an indiegogo campaign to raise funds for what she claimed was a life saving operation but was in fact a sex change operation Chloe confided this to Allister Pinsof and then attempted to take her own life, while she was in the psych ward (after allister and another talked her down from committing suicide) Allister wanted to expose the scam but destructoid editor's advised against it and allister went and outed it on Twitter anyway. There were some insensitive tweets in the process massive outcry, allister was warned his job was being reviewed over it and then he was fired and then treated as a Pariah by the games journalism industry.
Where the gamejourno mailing list comes in is on two points they raise:
First that on the day he was fired, destructoid's editor discussed the situation with other people on the mailing list. Whats not clear is the time line cause the article paints it that it was based on the discussion with the gamejourno mailing list that the decision was made to fire him, but the times dont line up (the time he fired Allister is 2am may 17th yet the only email they show in full is set at 11am may 17th) but I dont know how much of that could be timezone wibbly wobbly time wimey.
In fact the whole firing is a mess as the editor doesnt tell anyone (gamejourno included) the same thing and the story keeps bouncing back and forth from earlier dates to later dates so it is hard to grasp a timeline
The second issue though is a bit more interesting
they have a quote from the editor supposably to the gamejourno list warning them that allister was looking around for work (saying "you know who" instead of his name) and advising that they shouldnt hire him they all respond jokingly confirming it's allister
and it was this that led to him being blacklisted by the industry. The article also brings up that the revelation that he may have colluded with others to push allister from the industry via gamejourno quoting a florida law that makes it grounds for unlawful termination or something.
In the end the editor responded stating it wasnt collusion cause what he says on the gamejourno mailing list is exactly the same statements he made publicly and that Allister pretty much destroyed his career himself by how he acted on twitter and he didnt have to do anything.
In the end it seems these problems keep coming back to twitter.Am i still allowed to play and enjoy videogames
yes
have you tried alien Isolation? its fantastic fun, just dont go on the steam forums there is a lot of trollish behaviour going on, but the game itself is awesome and is my favourite this year so far.0 -
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Join Date:Posts: 50553
It's still nonsense when you apply it to the games market and real life. If developers wanted to make the games they have always wanted then it would mean giving up a secure job for a very risky venture With no social welfare cover if it fails. Going straight into it without any industry experience is just asking to fail. At the end of the day you are still making a consumer product so it has to fail and the cost of making an indie game can run into 5 figures, and closer to 1 million.
Take that from someone who looked into going solo and realising I'd need way more experience in the industry because it's not just about making a game. You can make the best game in the world but it won't sell unless you know how to manage it and you'll only get that from experience. I've been to interviews with way too many indie devs that have started up straight out of college and could see how poorly run they were and doomed to failure.
Even still it doesn't change the fact that the game you want to make still needs to sell to a market and the financial investment is so big, even for an indie game, that you can't just make the game you want to make and not at least make concessions to aim it at a target market.
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Join Date:Posts: 50553
It doesn't, unless you want to make a game that sells, in which case the concessions you make aren't actually concessions because you're doing what you set out to do to begin with - therefore making the game you wanted to make
In that case your goal wouldn't be to make the game you want to make but a product that will make you money. Even still you are ignoring what I said about experience. If you want to make a product that sells making a game is the easy part. If you don't know anything about user centered design, project management, advertising, community management or sourcing funding then you are never going to make a successful project and the only place you are going to get those skills is in industry.
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