The big Phil Fish, Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian discussion thread

BlitzKrieg

shruikan2553 wrote: »

http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057322236/1
Yesss, a new angry hash tag for people. Everyone get off at the next stop. A new bandwagon will be along soon. Please please kill gamergate.

If I was to actually throw a genuine bone over to gamergate's favour it's that there has been over the same period of it's existence been quite a few similar absolute f*cking ridiculous actions by other areas of the internet (especially twitter and youtube) that they have stuck firmly away from them (youtube has had quite a few with sam pepper, alex day and numerous others have all been at the centre of some sexual or sexist controversy).

Gamergate will more likely die of boredom then some shift to a new cause.

Penn

#ReaderGate

kunst nugget

Nearly all that hashtag activism seems to do is direct a baying mob at somebody without actually achieving anything positive. In fact, it's usually the opposite. The Streisand effect kicks in with full effect and the target of the campaign becomes a martyr to whatever viewpoint/action/campaign/whatever he espouses or represents and becomes a rallying point for others to get behind. Then the side that feels they're being attacked goes on the defensive and find their own targets and wash, rinse and repeat.

kunst nugget

shruikan2553 wrote: »

http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057322236/1

Yesss, a new angry hash tag for people. Everyone get off at the next stop. A new bandwagon will be along soon. Please please kill gamergate.

Not condoning that hashtag campaign but that guy seems like a real dipshít. I never really paid much heed to any of that PUA stuff until after the whole Eliot Rodger shooting and some of the articles people were linking to on boards about PUAs, Men's Rights, True Forced Loneliness and InCels - there is a whole crazy world of shít out there about it and some of it was pretty out there.

http://whoism3.wordpress.com/2012/11/17/confessions-of-a-reformed-incel/

It was originally linked in this thread:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057216888

Potatoeman

kunst nugget wrote: »

Not condoning that hashtag campaign but that guy seems like a real dipshít. I never really paid much heed to any of that PUA stuff until after the whole Eliot Rodger shooting and some of the articles people were linking to on boards about PUAs, Men's Rights, True Forced Loneliness and InCels - there is a whole crazy world of shít out there about it and some of it was pretty out there.

http://whoism3.wordpress.com/2012/11/17/confessions-of-a-reformed-incel/

It was originally linked in this thread:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057216888

I cringe at the whole friendzone thing every time I hear it. If someone is not attracted to you move on. Dont get bitter about it, holding out hope and staying in their life. Its basic stuff.

kunst nugget

Potatoeman wrote: »

I cringe at the whole friendzone thing every time I hear it. If someone is not attracted to you move on. Dont get bitter about it, holding out hope and staying in their life. Its basic stuff.

That whole InCel thing takes that whole 'friendzoned' notion to a whole new level and I know it's a word that has been bandied about a bit too much on here but it is deeply misogynistic from what I've read on it.

Potatoeman

kunst nugget wrote: »

That whole InCel thing takes that whole 'friendzoned' notion to a whole new level and I know it's a word that has been bandied about a bit too much on here but it is deeply misogynistic from what I've read on it.

He's mad that women told him to be nice instead of workout. He could have done both.

C14N

shruikan2553 wrote: »

http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057322236/1

Yesss, a new angry hash tag for people. Everyone get off at the next stop. A new bandwagon will be along soon. Please please kill gamergate.

What's this got to do with gamergate or Zoe Quinn or whatever?

K.O.Kiki

Off-topic?

shruikan2553

C14N wrote: »

What's this got to do with gamergate or Zoe Quinn or whatever?

Its another angry hash tag campaign that's perfect for the anti gg crowd. Plus adding random stuff to gamergate is hardly new.

Shiminay

Whilst I disagree with more or less everything she's said in those tweets (assuming, they're not taken out of context or whatever, I don't care enough to look it up), she's not a journalist. It says so right there. She's a comic artist.

Is this now about Ethics in Comics too?

super_furry

Yep, it seems now that we're at the stage now that both sides are just pulling up random stuff from anybody who they can be outraged by in order to keep this ****storm going. Any point either side has had to make has long been lost in the mix and at this stage I think most reasonable people have checked out of the whole thing.

C14N

Shiminay wrote: »

Whilst I disagree with more or less everything she's said in those tweets (assuming, they're not taken out of context or whatever, I don't care enough to look it up), she's not a journalist. It says so right there. She's a comic artist.

Is this now about Ethics in Comics too?

I think the point is that she works for Kotaku and it just ties in with the idea that gaming sites pretty much hate their own audiences. Honestly, unless she's being sarcastic or satirical, that's some pretty bad stuff to be tweeting publicly.

Shiminay

I suspect the point is "here's another woman we can take a cheap shot at" myself, but it's not like anyone on GG ever did that before...

However, as I said, if that's what the woman thinks, then her attitude leaves a lot to be desired, but if that's what makes people want to not read a vacuous waste of electrons like Kotaku then so be it. It's not like their content is ever much more than regurgitated press releases or click-bait nonsense (which is the Gawker business model tbh).

kunst nugget

C14N wrote: »

I think the point is that she works for Kotaku and it just ties in with the idea that gaming sites pretty much hate their own audiences.

I don't get this notion of them hating their own audience. If the gamergate thing has shown anything, it's that people that play games aren't one homogeneous group. Their target audience is left leaning liberal types. They don't hate them. They hate all the other people.

I don't get that fecking 'cis' thing at all. Where does it come from at all? Anytime I see it being used it negates whatever the person has said, no matter how rational or reasoned, by making them look like a complete bellend.

kunst nugget

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Its another angry hash tag campaign that's perfect for the anti gg crowd. Plus adding random stuff to gamergate is hardly new.

The guy's a complete scrote though. While I don't agree with hashtag activism, I think you'll need to come up with a better example of how badly men are being victimised than that guy.

Kirby

kunst nugget wrote: »

I don't get this notion of them hating their own audience. If the gamergate thing has shown anything, it's that people that play games aren't one homogeneous group. Their target audience is left leaning liberal types. They don't hate them. They hate all the other people.

Kotaku's audience is male gamers. That's who they cater to and who clicks on their articles. You only need to read their comments section to realise this.

That artist clearly hates men judging by those tweets. Its proper biting of the hand that feeds you. These websites need to be careful. Their only tangible asset is their userbase. Alienate that, and the money disappears.

COYVB

kunst nugget wrote: »

I don't get this notion of them hating their own audience

Speaking from experience, it's not necessarily that they hate gamers as a whole group encompassing those who play games, but rather they hate the very obnoxious, very pathetic, VERY vocal minority who think they've got a god-given right to absolutely everything. I know this because I hate them too. And anyone I've spoken to in the industry also hates them.

They are dickheads, but it's got nothing to do with the fact that they play games. They're probably dickheads on their brony messageboards too

I also think it's important to note that most gamers (read: people who play video games) also hate those people

kunst nugget

COYVB wrote: »

Speaking from experience, it's not necessarily that they hate gamers as a whole group encompassing those who play games, but rather they hate the very obnoxious, very pathetic, VERY vocal minority who think they've got a god-given right to absolutely everything. I know this because I hate them too. And anyone I've spoken to in the industry also hates them.

They are dickheads, but it's got nothing to do with the fact that they play games. They're probably dickheads on their brony messageboards too

I also think it's important to note that most gamers (read: people who play video games) also hate those people

That's basically what I'm saying. They don't hate gamers as a whole, the dislike a certain section of them and they are clearly not the people that are the website's intended audience.

COYVB

kunst nugget wrote: »

Tthey are clearly not the people that are the website's intended audience.

Sadly, intended audience and actual audience are rarely the same thing

kunst nugget

Kirby wrote: »

Kotaku's audience is male gamers. That's who they cater to and who clicks on their articles. You only need to read their comments section to realise this.

That artist clearly hates men judging by those tweets. Its proper biting of the hand that feeds you. These websites need to be careful. Their only tangible asset is their userbase. Alienate that, and the money disappears.

If I click on the comments section of any article on the Guardian facebook, the comments are usually split between left leaning feminist eco warriors and the right wing tea party advocates. One is the intended audience and one isn't. The problem is that a lot of websites are getting writers to pen provocative articles as clickbait to get people from all sides to go on to their websites. It's not just a problem with gaming websites, it's everywhere.

kunst nugget

COYVB wrote: »

Sadly, intended audience and actual audience are rarely the same thing

True, and I think the phenomenon of clickbait articles has meant that website are deliberately provoking people to get more hits to their website for the purposes of ad revenue. Tbf though, it really is blowing up in the faces of the likes of Kotaku.

BlitzKrieg

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

Off-topic?

so context:

Mattie brice was a judge for the IGF (independent games festival) and not the person who's twitter account is linked

her account and the tweet that made her a *was* a judge is this:

https://twitter.com/xMattieBrice/status/529814163606872064

based on that tweet she was forced out of the festival.

IGF statement: http://igf.com/2014/11/a_statement_on_igf_inclusivity.html

Which some corners of the internet (the ralph retort) revelled in and went full retard in the dancing on the graves sh*t

The actual person who is being quoted in this image is responding to the news as it broke. hence why some of it was directed at IGF directly and others are clearly over exaggerated parodies of the original tweet


All pretty horrible and run of the mill for twitter reminding once again that it is ****ing nightmare fuel in a 125 character can.

But it looks to get worse

initially (because of above picture or prior) a lot of the hatred was being directed to Stephen totalio of kotaku.

Totalbiscuit I dont know what he was thinking in his attempt to be reasonable directed people to not harass stephen totalio over her and instead pointed them to go to her directly

which has erupted in her twitter account being kindly swamped in harassment.


which frankly is just making things worse but it's pretty much all self contained to twitter

that kind of sums up every outburst of Gamergate these days

Dont use twitter?

not your problem.


edit: oh and this is not me following GG controversies so I can provide context everytime someone posts here, this is me taking the picture above and spending about 20 or so minutes working back to the source. I saw this for the first time today.


So yeah I still hate those jpeg snapshots.

gizmo

Speaking of TotalBiscuit, he recently spoke to David Rosen of Wolfire after the latter got dogpiled last week for his stance on the campaign. The result seems to be a welcome change for TB on some points and the jointly written piece is, generally speaking, quite agreeable.

I spoke to David Rosen of Wolfire and length and this is what we decided on

On the subject of Brice, to add to what BlitzKrieg said above, the net result of her tweet and IGF's subsequent apology was a plan formed over at KiA to go after the IGF not through their sponsors this time (probably because Microsoft and Valve would have laughed them out of the god damn building) but rather through contacting each of the entrants individually. Needless to say, the plan has since been scrapped.

As an aside, two interesting things popped up in the last few days. Firstly, Ralph Koster, a fairly notable designer in the industry, engaged KiA on this thread and raised some excellent points along the way. Here was one of my favourites but his others are well worth searching for too.

Secondly, and on a more amusing note, here's a take on the campaign from a rather different source. A gentleman from KiA stuck his head into r/Bitcoin and posted this the day before yesterday. The rebuttals to most of their points highlight my own misgivings/objections to the movement but it's interesting seeing the same thoughts coming from people who don't identify as gamers in the least.

Slot Machine

While no one deserves death threats I still find it hard to dredge up sympathy for these glorified children that do their utmost to rile others up and then have a fit when they inevitably react.

What exactly was she expecting to happen?

This whole thing would be hilarious if it wasn't so embarrassing to watch.

K.O.Kiki

kunst nugget wrote: »

I don't get that fecking 'cis' thing at all. Where does it come from at all? Anytime I see it being used it negates whatever the person has said, no matter how rational or reasoned, by making them look like a complete bellend.

From what I can figure out, "cis" is a way for non-heterosexual people to lash out at heterosexual people.
Those that use it are basically trying to create a new slur.

Thanks for the clarifications, I just check into r/Kotakuinaction randomly now.
Both sides of this are turning out to be utter bellends.

Guyanachronism

Kirby wrote: »

Kotaku's audience is male gamers. That's who they cater to and who clicks on their articles. You only need to read their comments section to realise this.

That artist clearly hates men judging by those tweets. Its proper biting of the hand that feeds you. These websites need to be careful. Their only tangible asset is their userbase. Alienate that, and the money disappears.

Is Kotaku audience male gamers? I would have thought it was more diverse considering they focus a lot on niche interests and not so much the big games (unless mocking them press x to pay respects etc.) They're also big fans of Anita Sarkeeisan and gave Bayonetta II massive coverage while criticsing the Playboy spread. They also get involved in gay rights issues, such as nintendo not allowing same sex couples in one of their life sim games. So I would say it has wider reader base than "male gamers" and particularly male gamers of the GG supporting variety.

Not that it matters, I thought gamergate was about ethics in journalism so shouldn't she be allowed speak her mind without being beholden to anyone. Anyway other posters have pointed out how the tweets are hyperbolic and satiric.

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

From what I can figure out, "cis" is a way for non-heterosexual people to lash out at heterosexual people.
Those that use it are basically trying to create a new slur.

Thanks for the clarifications, I just check into r/Kotakuinaction randomly now.
Both sides of this are turning out to be utter bellends.

That's not true or fair. The term is simply the opposite of transgender. It's a way of getting around assuming somebodies gender and sexuality or using language that makes transgender people feel abnormal or outsiders. So individuals don't have to keep explaining themselves if they're transgender. I only ever see it used as a pejorative by transphobic people. Cisgendered is simply that you identify with your biological birth gender.

It actually has nothing to do with hetero or homosexuality, it's about gender.

So in the tweet it was simply used to identify males, people born biologically male who identify as men.

kunst nugget

Guyanachronism wrote: »

That's not true or fair. The term is simply the opposite of transgender. It's a way of getting around assuming somebodies gender and sexuality or using language that makes transgender people feel abnormal or outsiders. So individuals don't have to keep explaining themselves if they're transgender. I only ever see it used as a pejorative by transphobic people. Cisgendered is simply that you identify with your biological birth gender.

I don't get the point of it. If a person is transgender, I call them by the gender that they have transitioned to, so I'd call them a woman or a man not a trans woman or trans man. Calling someone a cis man or cis woman serves to highlight the difference not lessen it imo and actively creates a barrier.

I always think the term 'cis' has a 'check your privilege' undertone to it.

kunst nugget

I clicked on After Hours and saw the sticky which I thought was interesting:

Misogyny on boards

Evac101

I have to agree with Kunst on this one, even being told on Jezabel that as a cis white male I didn't have the tools to understand sexism as the framework of gender bias is so ingrained that it's impossible for a man to experience sexism.

To which I didn't bother replying to be honest.

<edit> This isn't to say that I've experienced sexism as a man - I have experienced body shaming and other forms of unpleasantness but just because I haven't experienced that particular form of horribleness doesn't mean that I can't at least attempt to understand and be empathetic to the problem </edit>