The big Phil Fish, Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian discussion thread

Evac101

If there's no evidence to support violence in video games causing violence in real life then how can we leap to the conclusion that gender stereotypes in games (where they actually exist) cause behavioural changes in real life?

Which is kinda my basic problem with AS's videos.

johnny_ultimate

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

Something I've been meaning to ask,

Is the depiction of women in video games, as described by Sarkeesian actually an issue? Why and what effects can it have?

I'm going to put aside sociological and psychological arguments, and exploring how media portrayals can reinforce gender roles in society at large - theses, PHDs and books have been written on these subjects, with complex results.

I've said this before, but on the basest level, I believe there's one big issue with the depiction of women in video games: it's boring. The writing is more often than not repetitive, shallow, clichéd, dull, lazy, unimaginative, one-note. Discussing these issues, developers/writers could be inclined to put more thought into the characters they create - whether they are male or female - and that as far as I'd be concerned is better for everybody who plays video games (well, the bigots aside). It will make gaming more accessible and diverse, no question about it - my biggest problem with 'GamerGate' is the lunatic fringe who seem to believe these are actually negative qualities to be fought against at all costs.

To pick one example: Gone Home, as it's the game every discussion ends up circling back to. So many people found that game refreshing because is a well developed, interesting story from a female perspective that we haven't seen in games before. The funny thing is, that in the wider media and art landscape nothing Gone Home does is particularly remarkable or original - it's a pretty standard coming of age / coming out story (albeit delivered in a pretty distinctive way, cleverly using horror imagery). That it feels so unique within gaming is a testament to how limited the types of characters and stories in video games actually are. Thankfully, this is changing almost by the day.

DeVore wrote: »

Within the answer to that question is a great deal of the answer to Ms Sarkeesian's videos... her quite narrow focus on the role of women can illuminate one particular area in great detail, like a microscope... but it misses the bigger picture.

This has been brought up before, but focusing in on a specific area is actually a really important thing when trying to make an argument. If this was 'tropes vs video games', well then suddenly the scope becomes incredibly vast, far too much for one person to handle. Given it is taking Sarkeesian several years to produce videos about these female tropes alone, imagine how long we'd be waiting for a series with no definitive parameters :pac:

And everybody is going to have an area of interest or expertise (I know, I know - 'expertise' is a troublesome word in this context :cool:). This should not be discouraged either, because a lively critical landscape encompasses a vast variety of perspectives. Some work best within a feminist framework, others within a Marxist, some in a sociological, some in a psychological etc... etc... The key problem with gaming criticism is that we haven't really reached a point yet where that variety of discourse exists. It needs to happen, and it's happening slowly. So absolutely - an examination of male tropes would be a perfectly valid, worthwhile exercise. There are definite concerns there too, although I safely reckon they'd sometimes be very different types of concerns (the ways men and women are 'objectified' in games, for example, is very, very different).

There are countless areas of interest available to critics should they wish to explore them - and not just narrative, but prevalent trends across game design generally. IMO I'd love to read / watch a thorough, intelligent critique of how foreign cultures and people are often portrayed as 'others' and mindless aggressors within games - sadly, it's not a trend restricted to gaming either

Shiminay

I'd throw one suggestion into the loop - stop making the problem with "tropes" in gaming about sexism. Identify the source of these tropes: bad storytelling. Identify the source of that: bad writing. How many of us can hand on our hearts say that our hobby of choice has any kind of decent reputation when it comes to writing? There are a non-zero number of games with good writing for sure, but there's a vast majority of them that are just shockingly bad. It's bad and lazy story writing as well as "story by committee and focus group" that leads to these terrible tropes and clichés.
(note- I was typing this as Johnny made his post, I think we're broadly on the same page, if not the same chapter in the book at least)

I'm in the middle of running and writing a sci-fi LARP (live action role play) myself, it's a real challenge to put together an interesting and engaging story, but because the team of us involved (there're 5 of us) know we can talk honestly to one another about these things without fear of upsetting a friendship, we're highly critical of our work. The team has some very strong writers (I don't include myself in that list, it's a new experience for me, but I'm enjoying it and getting better at it I think) and we're constantly calling each other out with things like "that was almost all of season 3 of Battlestar" or "yea, Mass Effect did that already and better" and so on. Writing for games is not the same as writing fiction and that's something that's desperately apparent in games writing. We need some tropes to help us convey ideas to the players as we only get them for a 3 hour session once every few months, so when we need to convey the idea of a gigantic migrant fleet of space ships, we know that people are instantly going to think BSG and The Quarians, so instead of just trying to pretend those things didn't influence us (because we loved them!), we make a subtle hat-tip, don't dwell on it and move on. My point: there's a right way and a wrong way to use a trope and you can end up not respecting both your own story and your audience if you get it wrong.

"Popular" does not always mean "Good" to all people - just look at the music industry. I'm going on a slight tangent and I think I've made this point before elsewhere on Boards, but broadly speaking, 12 year old girls dictate the mass music market. One Direction's music does not give me the impression that they are not good musicians. Good performers, yes, but it's by the numbers chart pop stuff (similarly, in the games space, AAA games usually do what they do extremely well, it's really enjoyable, but too many times it's all action and no substance). One doesn't get into that game without some modicum of musical talent though, so I would be very unsurprised if all those 1D lads played an instrument really well too, but we never get to see it because they're a teeny-bopper group that's extremely tightly managed (I'm sure that there've been some brilliant story and gameplay ideas within the talent pool that exists in the dev houses that make AAA games, but the budgets are way too high to take major risks and direction changes and upset the cash-cow).

All of that is absolutely fine. Musically, I'm a doom metal fan, it's an extremely niche taste within an already niche taste (metal in general I mean). I am not threatened by the existence of One Direction, I can go to doom festivals (I was at one in October!), buy doom albums, meet doom bands and have a pint with them. Nothing has been taken away from me by virtue of the fact that One Direction are a thing

Similarly, nothing has or will (or CAN) be taken away from me by the idea of a lady making a game about her depression or another lady making videos about something she has a beef with and so on. Market changes start in the indie space for many artistic industries and I am very much in the camp that says games are art. Older ideas must be challenged or else you have stagnation and I don't think I'd be incorrect in suggesting that in the AAA space, there's been very little by way of new ideas, especially since the old ones work so well (and they do!).

The Games market was dictated by young single middle-class men - a highly privileged group (I'm not getting into Tumblr type name calling here, facts is facts, being white and a man and an English speaker is probably the best starting advantage you can get on this planet), but the numbers are changing and they're no longer the "biggest" demographic anymore. Somehow they see this as a threat. It's not. It's so not. Nobody worth listening to is saying we should stop making AAA Dudebro games, they're really, really good fun and, if managed well, are money in the bank for any dev and publisher. A lot of people worth listening to are suggesting that maybe there's a problem with the way we portray people in these games though, but these are power fantasy games designed to make the player feel like he could single-handedly take on an alien armada and win. There's definitely an imbalance in gender representation in mass media as there was some sort of bizarre assumption that female leads were less appealing to the target audience. A lot of this thinking is influenced by the blockbuster movie makers I think cause they're the closest thing in terms of peers the AAA games industry has.

Potatoeman

Shiminay wrote: »

The Games market was dictated by young single middle-class men - a highly privileged group (I'm not getting into Tumblr type name calling here, facts is facts, being white and a man and an English speaker is probably the best starting advantage you can get on this planet), but the numbers are changing and they're no longer the "biggest" demographic anymore. Somehow they see this as a threat. It's not. It's so not. Nobody worth listening to is saying we should stop making AAA Dudebro games, they're really, really good fun and, if managed well, are money in the bank for any dev and publisher. A lot of people worth listening to are suggesting that maybe there's a problem with the way we portray people in these games though, but these are power fantasy games designed to make the player feel like he could single-handedly take on an alien armada and win. There's definitely an imbalance in gender representation in mass media as there was some sort of bizarre assumption that female leads were less appealing to the target audience. A lot of this thinking is influenced by the blockbuster movie makers I think cause they're the closest thing in terms of peers the AAA games industry has.

Wouldn't the market correct itself though. If a game appeals to a larger target market would it be more successful? I'm no COD fan but I accept it is going to be copied by many games trying to cash in but I simply don't buy them.

DeVore

Johnny, I write on the lines, not between them...
I just mean that when you look at something from a very focused position you get to see the detail and that's what she did (and you acknowledge that). By no means am I saying that that's not a legitimate approach (though I will argue that she executed on it poorly imho... the approach is still legitimate). It can reveal the fabric of things and is intellectually valuable.

My point is that having such a narrow focus may exclude the ability to see the real causes of what is observed. Or the solutions to it!

She sees nasty violence towards women. That's true. Its true because there is nasty violence towards everyone. I've dumped more bodies in dumpsters than you have had hot dinners.
That's not to say the "violence" might not be more problematic for women, might not have more impact on women or might offend/disturb more women... that might be true but its part of a much bigger question which is: when/how/why do we remove the capacity for creation of art from who, about what.

She's entitled to examine the topic in detail, from a given perspective and God knows its been done by more people from narrower focuses by a horde of Art Lit majors in times past (Macbeth as seen through his relationship to scotched snakes etc ) ... I just don't think its going to lead us to the real question or answer and I had presumed (correct if wrong) that that was the purpose.

Of course, I actually believe that Sarkeesian's purpose was to build the brand of Sarkeesian and what a job she has done of that, but that's the specific case not the general approach

K.O.Kiki

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

[...]

The main issue GamerGate found with Gone Home was undisclosed conflict-of-interest from those giving it the highest praise.

Shiminay

Potatoeman wrote: »

Wouldn't the market correct itself though. If a game appeals to a larger target market would it be more successful? I'm no COD fan but I accept it is going to be copied by many games trying to cash in but I simply don't buy them.

It's trying to, but when you see this level or outrage and threats levelled against people trying to do something new, you can understand people would be hesitant to try to ply their art for a living and attempt to break into so hostile a consumer base.

kunst nugget

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

The main issue GamerGate found with Gone Home was undisclosed conflict-of-interest from those giving it the highest praise.

Yeah, that was it...

K.O.Kiki

kunst nugget wrote: »

Yeah, that was it...

Oh, alright.

Most of the loud commenters thought it was a sh*t game, too! :pac:

EoinHef

Target Australia has removed GTA V from sale,as they agree with a campaign by women who were previously sex workers that states the game encourages violence towards not only female sex workers but more broadly all women.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-12-03-target-removes-grand-theft-auto-5-from-sale-in-australia

Target took action based on one side of a debate. Bit ridiculous imo. If the game had been banned by target for its general tone and violence,towards both genders,i would not have an issue with that but as is i have to say,as terrible as the things that happened to the group of women in the past are,i would not support this particular petition. The game is extremely violent imo,and is way over the top with some of the language and characters. But imo at least,certainly does not single out women for any different treatment than men.

The offending article that the group are quoting is actually a youtube video of a fan of the game doing dispicable things to a prostitute in game. He was neither in a mission nor was the game encouraging him to do it,its a sandbox game so people are going to do what they want. Just this particular sad youtuber decided to put up a video depicting this violence toward women.
Does that mean target were right or wrong in there response?

I say they were wrong,as i said earlier if they banned it for its general tone and violence thats no problem for me but this seems like a ridiculous reason to me and there is not even a hint that they looked into this in any meaningful way. Probably just good PR for them,and being cynical i would say they waited till they got the first weeks sales out of the way before banning it.

As many have stated,all forms of media have examples of nearly any scenario you can think off. But for some reason since all this GG and anti GG gaming is suddenly being held to a higher standard than other forms of media and ive no idea why.

Links234

As I posted on the thread in AH about this, Australia has quite a serious history of video game censorship: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_banned_video_games_in_Australia#Currently_banned.2Fcensored_video_games

Honestly, they're completely in the wrong to ban it, but they were in the wrong with all the rest also. Looks more like Australia being Australia than anything else, and some concerned group or such are just an excuse.

EoinHef

Links234 wrote: »

As I posted on the thread in AH about this, Australia has quite a serious history of video game censorship: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_banned_video_games_in_Australia#Currently_banned.2Fcensored_video_games

Honestly, they're completely in the wrong to ban it, but they were in the wrong with all the rest also. Looks more like Australia being Australia than anything else, and some concerned group or such are just an excuse.

I knew they had more stringent classification in Australia than most countries but reading through the list there,definitely are some questionable bans,imo anyway.

Im not a massive fan of censorship but in some cases could probably justify it.

In the case of Target and GTA V,as i said if they had banned it from shelves because of the overall content being too violent or drug use being too prevalent i could understand that more.

kunst nugget

EoinHef wrote: »

As many have stated,all forms of media have examples of nearly any scenario you can think off. But for some reason since all this GG and anti GG gaming is suddenly being held to a higher standard than other forms of media and ive no idea why.

Every artistic medium goes through a spotlight being held up to them in terms of their morality at some stage. Video nasties were the big thing when I was younger and then music had Tipper Gore and the PMRC decrying the pernicious influence of rap and heavy metal on our youngsters. These moral panics all have one thing in common. They all blew over.

I'll admit to watching Evil Dead and listening to Cop Killer when I was younger and beside occasionally dressing up as a tree in the bedroom and making some gang signs, they've had no lasting effect on me.

Generally though, the people that watched the video nasties or listened to rap music in the 80s or 90s didn't have any way of giving death threats to people who sought to restrict their viewing/listening habits beyond writing a letter. The internet can be a wee bit convenient in terms of being an asshole.

Also, calls for censorship seems to have spread to the progressive left where it would have usually been the preserve of the Christian right and parents' groups in the 80s or 90s.

DeVore

Also, calls for censorship seems to have spread to the progressive left where it would have usually been the preserve of the Christian right and parents' groups in the 80s or 90s.

That's the crazy thing for me... broadening out beyond games, I hear a sh*t-ton of people calling for the ban of lots of things, often for no more reason than that they are offended by it. A lot of it is hypocritical as the same people go bat-sh*t insane if their Casus Belli is threatened or not given the respect they feel it deserves.

There seems to be a huge amount of woolly thinking hypocrisy going on where people simultaneously demand their rights while not affording those self-same rights to others!

Links234

I don't find it a compelling comparison to the PMRC or Video Nasty scare, Anita hasn't called for censorship or banning, she's only providing criticism. Criticism that I would add is fairly shallow at the best of times, off base other times, and sometimes an outright load of crap, but nothing comparable to censorship. I'd say that gaming's moral panic has already come and gone with the Jack Thompson era, blaming school shootings on Doom and the like. My approach to Anita Sarkeesian is that while I don't agree with what she has to say, I will defend her right to say it. What really rubs me the wrong way about the gamergate movement is that it just wants to shout people down, and claims of censorship just aren't accurate.

I'd be just as against GTAV being banned on account of violent content or drug use as I am against it being banned for depictions of women. I don't believe in censorship or banning of games at all.

kunst nugget

Links234 wrote: »

I don't find it a compelling comparison to the PMRC or Video Nasty scare, Anita hasn't called for censorship or banning, she's only providing criticism. Criticism that I would add is fairly shallow at the best of times, off base other times, and sometimes an outright load of crap, but nothing comparable to censorship. I'd say that gaming's moral panic has already come and gone with the Jack Thompson era, blaming school shootings on Doom and the like. My approach to Anita Sarkeesian is that while I don't agree with what she has to say, I will defend her right to say it. What really rubs me the wrong way about the gamergate movement is that it just wants to shout people down, and claims of censorship just aren't accurate.

I'd be just as against GTAV being banned on account of violent content or drug use as I am against it being banned for depictions of women. I don't believe in censorship or banning of games at all.

If gaming's moral panic ended with Jack Thompson, why are we seeing shops refusing to stock GTAV? The goalposts have shifted with violence for women being the raison d'etre but it's still the same issue, that videogames have a corrupting influence.

I ain't blaming Sarkeesian for any of this. I think as a result of gamergate, a light is being shone on aspects of gaming culture that don't look attractive to the outsider.

Links234

kunst nugget wrote: »

If gaming's moral panic ended with Jack Thompson, why are we seeing shops refusing to stock GTAV?

Because Australia and their long standing censorship and banning of games, it's absolutely nothing new, and honestly, in this instance it's a lot less than their usual fare because it's merely one retail chain refusing to stock it instead of the country itself issuing a ban. People will still be able to buy and play the game, they just won't be able to purchase it from Target. Quite frankly, that's the shop's loss and I can see them losing customers over it.

Links234

Also, this is quite an excellent response... https://www.change.org/p/target-withdraw-the-holy-bible-this-sickening-book-encourages-readers-to-commit-sexual-violence-and-kill-women

wes

Links234 wrote: »

Also, this is quite an excellent response... https://www.change.org/p/target-withdraw-the-holy-bible-this-sickening-book-encourages-readers-to-commit-sexual-violence-and-kill-women

Not really. If it was the Christian right who called for the ban, then it would be a brilliant response, but seeing as it wasn't, it just smacks of someone having a go at Christians. Sure some of the people who called for GTA 5 needing to be banned, might even agree.....

DeVore

I would include those Gamergaters who scream Sarkeesian and Quinn down, in the "group of wooly thinkers who hypocritically demand rights that they are not willing to afford to others" btw.. there's plenty of them around in fact, on both sides.

Skullface McGubbin

Jack Thompson must be breaking his sh!t laughing at the news of this and how it appears that feminists have done his work for him.

Almost any character in GTA5 can be killed. Male or Female. Only when women & hookers can be killed, they complain about it.

"But nobody is calling for those games to be banned, they just want the industry to grow up" they said :rolleyes:

Evac101

Genuine question - Witcher's 'score card' system was, I think we can all agree, pretty damn sexist. As of yet though I haven't seen it dragged into this discussion. Is it too low profile to matter? Did it's excellent storytelling* in other respects get it a 'pass'? Or will it be referenced at a later point?

*Big fan of both the books and the games as separate enterprises in terms of storyline/style.

Retr0gamer

The people giving out about don't have any clue about games so they only give out about the stuff that filters to the top, so the populist stuff is all they hear about and then they make **** up based on third hand information and hearsay.

Grumpypants

Just to be clear GTA 5 wasn't "banned" in Australia. This has nothing to do with their weird censorship laws. This is purely a commercial decision from a private company (Target or at least their parent company).

They value the dollars of the 30K that signed the petition over the possible dollars of the gamers who have not already purchased GTA 5, and lets face it a year old game that pretty much everyone has purchased is not going to be a huge profit maker for them.

kunst nugget

Grumpypants wrote: »

Just to be clear GTA 5 wasn't "banned" in Australia. This has nothing to do with their weird censorship laws. This is purely a commercial decision from a private company (Target or at least their parent company).

They value the dollars of the 30K that signed the petition over the possible dollars of the gamers who have not already purchased GTA 5, and lets face it a year old game that pretty much everyone has purchased is not going to be a huge profit maker for them.

I think most people on here understand it's not banned. I presume Links was placing it in the context of what has happened before in terms of gaming in Australia.

I would have thought it would be a major seller in its remastered version for the XboxOne and the PS4 so I'd imagine it would still be a sizeable loss of revenue.

Links234

kunst nugget wrote: »

I presume Links was placing it in the context of what has happened before in terms of gaming in Australia.

Pretty much. Although, I might add that certain retailers pulling violent games is neither new or unique to Australia either, Walmart and Target in the US both famously pulled GTA: San Andreas before.

anonyanony

Links234 wrote: »

Pretty much. Although, I might add that certain retailers pulling violent games is neither new or unique to Australia either, Walmart and Target in the US both famously pulled GTA: San Andreas before.

Was that not due to a different situation though as hot coffee made it so the rating needed to be changed or the scene removed from it, it got pulled here also in gamestop till the update version got sent out.

I know anita and the like say they are not for censorship but the way her partner mcintosh acts and posts on twitter show they do, then there is the reviewers like gamespot that review the game low cause they don't like aspects that don't meet their life view.

kunst nugget

anonyanony wrote: »

Was that not due to a different situation though as hot coffee made it so the rating needed to be changed or the scene removed from it, it got pulled here also in gamestop till the update version got sent out.

I know anita and the like say they are not for censorship but the way her partner mcintosh acts and posts on twitter show they do, then there is the reviewers like gamespot that review the game low cause they don't like aspects that don't meet their life view.

The gamespot review where the reviewer gave the game 9 out of 10 and who wrote a couple of sentences about how it would be nice to have some fleshed out female characters and that satirising misogynistic elements in our society without context can make the game sometimes look like a celebration of sexism? Yeah, fúck that bitch!!!

It's a review where a person gives their personal opinion on what they thought of a particular game. Get over it.

anonyanony

kunst nugget wrote: »

The gamespot review where the reviewer gave the game 9 out of 10 and who wrote a couple of sentences about how it would be nice to have some fleshed out female characters and that satirising misogynistic elements in our society without context can make the game sometimes look like a celebration of sexism? Yeah, fúck that bitch!!!

It's a review where a person gives their personal opinion on what they thought of a particular game. Get over it.

It was lower then the average granted it was not as big of a hit as the bayanetta 2 review polygon did but still was unwarranted, if they knew going in they would have issues with the game they should have excused themselves let others review instead.

johnny_ultimate

anonyanony wrote: »

if they knew going in they would have issues with the game they should have excused themselves let others review instead.

This is a ridiculous statement. Likely to have no issue is just as much a bias as likely to have an issue, and neither is invalid. If someone has a problem with something, they should be allowed comment on it. We don't have to agree with it - I found the Bayonetta 2 review on Polygon a shallow reading of the character - but that does not mean it's any more worthless. I'd rather he articulate his views in a more convincing way, but I have no doubt he was being honest either.

I just don't get this view that a review should go to the person most likely to be wildly positive about it (bearing in mind 9/10 is pretty wildly positive :pac:). Dissent is something the gaming community at large needs to learn to accept as perfectly valid - there's too much of a rush towards consensus when talking about games, and this plays out time and time again when someone says something that differs from the norm. As long as it's a genuine, sensible and well argued critique, a reviews should be able to take any viewpoint, no matter how unpopular the opinion and how sacred the cow is. Basically, as long as they're not just being contrary for the sake of it.