The big Phil Fish, Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian discussion thread

Evade

the incredible pudding wrote: »

?

I don't understand what you're saying here.

Because men are more common in videogames they die more.

Get a bunch of games and count the characters and suppose there were 1000 men and 200 women. Now suppose of those characters 400 men died and 100 women died. More men died because there were more men. But if you reduce it to a percentage or deaths per hundred 40 out of 100 men died but 50 out of 100 women died.

nesf

Evade wrote: »

Because men are more common in videogames they die more.

Get a bunch of games and count the characters and suppose there were 1000 men and 200 women. Now suppose of those characters 400 men died and 100 women died. More men died because there were more men. But if you reduce it to a percentage or deaths per hundred 40 out of 100 men died but 50 out of 100 women died.

How many "meaningless" deaths? Is there an even split? Do we see proportionally as many women casually killed as men in games? TV and Movies would be a definite no to this one. (Observing rather than judging here)

Potatoeman

DeVore wrote: »

I presume he means pro-rata with the number of characters. That's an interesting approach too... if you are a male/female character in a game, what is the likelihood of a violent outcome for your character's story? (Lets lump violent assault in with murder too, seems reasonable).

I reckon its still pretty bad for male characters. Not many princesses in towers getting slaughtered at the end (though it raises an interesting question of why they are consigned by the designers to the tower in the first place... but that's another question).

Are you referring to her episode where she looks at the male protagonists partner dying? She raised an interesting point but I think it comes back to lazy writing and an easy trope for motivation. If the character is a kid the partner would be replaced by their parents. The problem with criticising this trope is that it is used in almost every medium not just games.

Evade

nesf wrote: »

How many "meaningless" deaths? Is there an even split? Do we see proportionally as many women casually killed as men in games? TV and Movies would be a definite no to this one. (Observing rather than judging here)

At a guess I'd say far more of the deaths of the female characters are meaningful but it's not something I have any facts to back it up with.

I think it would be really interesting if you could establish a set of parameters and classify all the deaths in the top selling (or sold at least x number of copies) videogames of the last few years.

nesf

Evade wrote: »

At a guess I'd say far more of the deaths of the female characters are meaningful but it's not something I have any facts to back it up with.

I think it would be really interesting if you could establish a set of parameters and classify all the deaths in the top selling (or sold at least x number of copies) videogames of the last few years.

I doubt you could as many are multiplayer focused titles and who dies will be down to what characters people pick or are available. Also, genre is hugely important, it's almost all male deaths in most of my games as quite a lot of them are historical or quasi-historical wargames where the soldiers really were all men. It skews the figures hugely without saying anything about any particular bias.

Evade

nesf wrote: »

I doubt you could as many are multiplayer focused titles and who dies will be down to what characters people pick or are available. Also, genre is hugely important, it's almost all male deaths in most of my games as quite a lot of them are historical or quasi-historical wargames where the soldiers really were all men. It skews the figures hugely without saying anything about any particular bias.

You could concentrate on the single player only. You could classify by era, location, situation, etc.

DeVore

Since the charge is that the video game *industry* is sexist, then we should probably only consider those deaths/assaults that are either forced on the player or part of the narrative/cut-scenes.

DeVore

Mind you my point was also that there are at least *arguably* as many male assaults, deaths, murders pro-rata .... but everyone seems fine about that!

Evade

DeVore wrote: »

Since the charge is that the video game *industry* is sexist, then we should probably only consider those deaths/assaults that are either forced on the player or part of the narrative/cut-scenes.

Or times when it is advantageous to do so?

DeVore wrote: »

Mind you my point was also that there are at least *arguably* as many male assaults, deaths, murders pro-rata .... but everyone seems fine about that!

At the end of the day if I had a problem with the virtual killing I wouldn't be playing those types of games.

Clandestine

Anita Sarkeesian is a charlatan. She is a marketer at heart and she is gaining notoriety and funds through her poorly researched web videos which are gaining the backing of well known figures in the gaming community. I honestly doubt even she believes what she puts out.

Her fans act like cult members.

Clandestine

I actually just read on her twitter account that she called the police over some "threats" which were made to her. She then posted screencaps of said threats on her page, which looked incredibly suspect. I wouldn't be surprised if she wrote them herself to gain more support.

The profile of the individual has no profile pic (but his full name is listed), he writes in perfect English (rare for an actual troll) and the threats he makes are so over the top that I can't take them seriously. Its like a writer for law and Order or CSI wrote down what they'd think a troll would sound like when making a threat.

johnny_ultimate

Whatever about the videos themselves, there has most definitely been a torrent of the vilest and most violent abuse and threats directed her direction from the very beginning of this project. Don't think there's any room for debate about that whatsoever, and the actions of the few are completely indefensible.

richymcdermott

Not all fanbase should be condemned to ridicule in fairness as there's alot of good that comes out a community but the hardcore base or the trouble makers are usually the loudest that gives the rest of us a bad name no matter what it is .

I remember watching a documentary on Frank Miller who wrote such books as sin city , Daredevil , Batman , 300 and he was saying he was given death threats from fans for killing off Elektra , a character he created in daredevil with some fans saying they will kill him because they loved her.

George R.R. Martian also been given alot of abuse but I am sure there are alot of fans who are happy to wait till he finishes another entry in the game of thrones world to make it best possible.

with anita its no different , not problem is she sees only one thing and anyone who dismisses it from her own thoughts are wrong.

shes actively blocked and disabled ratings and comment section which only tells me she has no reason to wanting another opinion and just issuing a agenda to get her videos with more hits , been spread and talked about so she can continue being relevant.


I want a girl who actually plays videogames first or any other medium , that has a passion for it and I am more willing to listen to that person than a women like anita who openly admitted shes not a gamer.


she has been given too much limelight , its the same with alot of girls on youtube who have the banner girlgamer like its a privilege or a banner just to boaster the subscriber count and youtube money. we are one family at the end of the day what does it matter ?

Potatoeman

Clandestine wrote: »

I actually just read on her twitter account that she called the police over some "threats" which were made to her. She then posted screencaps of said threats on her page, which looked incredibly suspect. I wouldn't be surprised if she wrote them herself to gain more support.

The profile of the individual has no profile pic (but his full name is listed), he writes in perfect English (rare for an actual troll) and the threats he makes are so over the top that I can't take them seriously. Its like a writer for law and Order or CSI wrote down what they'd think a troll would sound like when making a threat.

I doubt she would call the police if she made the threat herself, it's very believable that the threats were made and she is very right to report them.

Timmyctc

Any chance a mod could separate the Fish and Anita arguments. Be interesting to both get this one back Phil-centric and to have a dedicated '"Sexism" In Gaming' Thread

nesf

Potatoeman wrote: »

I doubt she would call the police if she made the threat herself, it's very believable that the threats were made and she is very right to report them.

Well, she said she called the police, believe me people can find plenty here to doubt if they want to. Personally I'd think it bizarre if she hadn't received death/rape threats given the groups out for her blood during that Kickstarter and the kinds of things being said/done publicly. Some people are idiots, etc.

super_furry

This constant 'she's making the threats up' and 'she's just saying this for attention' stuff genuinely leaves me baffled. Do people really believe that (A) there aren't people out there who are unhinged enough to make these threats and that (B) the victims get the police involved even though they just fabricated the whole thing?

I mean Christ, we've seen people phone in bomb threats to a plane this week just because a Sony Online Executive was on it. Was that made up too? There's a toxic subculture online and to pretend it doesn't exist and to think that people are just making these threats up is beyond belief.

Status Offline

Timmyctc wrote: »

Any chance a mod could separate the Fish and Anita arguments. Be interesting to both get this one back Phil-centric and to have a dedicated '"Sexism" In Gaming' Thread

This

Clandestine

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Whatever about the videos themselves, there has most definitely been a torrent of the vilest and most violent abuse and threats directed her direction from the very beginning of this project..

I've seen some pretty abhorrent comments come from her crowd too. I've not seen a single death threat posted to her, but I'm not saying they don't happen.

Potatoeman wrote: »

I doubt she would call the police if she made the threat herself, it's very believable that the threats were made and she is very right to report them.

Its happened before. I actually recall a case where a feminist wrote a threat to herself on facebook and the police got involved, then they found out that she wrote it herself. I'm not saying with 100% certainty Anita did the same, but its just a very suspect tweet.

super_furry wrote: »

Do people really believe that (A) there aren't people out there who are unhinged enough to make these threats

Yes these kind of people exist, but they exist in every kind of internet community. She is just good at playing the victim.

Also, take a look at this:
http://i.imgur.com/5jsXILy.jpg
https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/504704140904505344

Potatoeman

Clandestine wrote: »

I've seen some pretty abhorrent comments come from her crowd too. I've not seen a single death threat posted to her, but I'm not saying they don't happen.

Its happened before. I actually recall a case where a feminist wrote a threat to herself on facebook and the police got involved, then they found out that she wrote it herself. I'm not saying with 100% certainty Anita did the same, but its just a very suspect tweet.

It's believable though, especially given the amount of hate she got. I have not reason to doubt her.

Clandestine wrote: »

Yes these kind of people exist, but they exist in every kind of internet community. She is just good at playing the victim.

Also, take a look at this:
http://i.imgur.com/5jsXILy.jpg
https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/504704140904505344

What is she actually asking for money for and what did she do with the money she got? One post says she already answered this...

Timmyctc

Potatoeman wrote: »

It's believable though, especially given the amount of hate she got. I have not reason to doubt her.



What is she actually asking for money for and what did she do with the money she got? One post says she already answered this...

She wanted an initial 6k for to play games and make videos about sexist tropes. Think she got like 100k

EDIT: I'm oversimplifying it but its late and I have a rash and its making me itchy

Potatoeman

Timmyctc wrote: »

She wanted an initial 6k for to play games and make videos about sexist tropes. Think she got like 100k

EDIT: I'm oversimplifying it but its late and I have a rash and its making me itchy

The twitter pick posted mentions in the comments that she has already explained what she done with the money but it doesn't say what.

Timmyctc

Potatoeman wrote: »

The twitter pick posted mentions in the comments that she has already explained what she done with the money but it doesn't say what.

Ah. Like. I dunno. She got 100k. Made Youtube videos with a fairly ordinary production value. I'm anticipating that there's much more to come.

e_e

Clandestine wrote: »

Its happened before. I actually recall a case where a feminist wrote a threat to herself on facebook and the police got involved, then they found out that she wrote it herself. I'm not saying with 100% certainty Anita did the same, but its just a very suspect tweet.

Yes these kind of people exist, but they exist in every kind of internet community. She is just good at playing the victim.

Or you could just take people at their word and not cynically dismiss them as playing victims? That's a really harmful attitude to have.
https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/504718160902492160

BMMachine

I just wish people would get off her case. What she is saying is nothing to get so ridiculously angry about. If you think its just bad, fine. If you think she is fully right, fine. If you take some aspects as good and accurate criticism and don't think much of other things she's talking about, fine.
At the end of the day she is broaching a subject about feminism and the role of women in games and she has been attacked in extremely vile, childish and stupid ways for doing so.

e_e

I haven't seen Anita play any sort of victim up until this point either. In fact if there's one thing to be said it's her perseverance in the face of such behavior that is admirable. Whenever I see abusive comments I can't help but think "Thanks for proving her point you ****ing idiot."

Calhoun

e_e wrote: »

Or you could just take people at their word and not cynically dismiss them as playing victims? That's a really harmful attitude to have.
]

That picture is just fubar, smells of usual Murica bs you see all the time. However I do feel that the point on harmful attitudes is wrong, it is stupid to blindly believe anything anyone 100% says without critically analysing it.

I certainly don't look at crap like this nor do I follow this kinda game news, if I saw some information unfiltered I don't think I could believe it knowing the author is slightly biased.

e_e

Calhoun wrote: »

However I do feel that the point on harmful attitudes is wrong, it is stupid to blindly believe anything anyone 100% says without critically analysing it.

Yes I agree, however the abuse Anita gets is so clearly out in the open that it's difficult to deny and just reads like another in a long line of ad-hominems from those that do deny it.

If somebody claims they've been getting rape/death threats and you can CLEARLY see evidence of it then it is ridiculous to deny and try to persecute the victim of it.

Calhoun wrote: »

I don't think I could believe it knowing the author is slightly biased.

ALL critics are biased, that is precisely the point. It's the way they can articulate their point of view and provoke discussion that is valuable. Whether you think Anita does this well or not is up to you though.

Calhoun

Yah in this case there is evidence that is glaringly obvious it's true I was speaking in general that it's our responsibility to question everything we are saying otherwise you get idiots like the chap in the tweet.

Clandestine

e_e wrote: »

Or you could just take people at their word and not cynically dismiss them as playing victims? That's a really harmful attitude to have.
https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/504718160902492160

http://i.imgur.com/zHPLIan.jpg