The big Phil Fish, Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian discussion thread

Calhoun

I did notice the time stamps but just thought the troll was flaming.

Reekwind

DeVore wrote: »

Mind you my point was also that there are at least *arguably* as many male assaults, deaths, murders pro-rata .... but everyone seems fine about that!

The key here is probably not just the numbers but also the role that the deaths serve and their nature. There is, for example, a world of difference between a well-established character charging to his death at the hands of alien hordes and a nameless one being tortured and executed. One is a portrayal of heroism - which reflects on the character actually having, well, a character - while the other serves as a cheap plot device to further the protagonist's own character development.

When people first drew attention to Women in Refrigerators in comics it wasn't because vastly more women were being killed/injured than men in the pages. It was that they were being disproportionately killed/depowered/whatever in particularly brutal and sadistic ways. (It's actually scary to think that in this regard games are at least a decade behind comics, of all mediums.)

Which is an example of the limits of quantitative analysis in such critiques.

nesf

Reekwind wrote: »

Which is an example of the limits of quantitative analysis in such critiques.

It gives a perfect example of the use of quantitative analysis here actually and particularly the use of mixed methods approaches. Use quantitative methods to find the trend, then qualitative approaches too explain this. Or qualitative methods to predict a trend etc. Each on its own is far less useful.

Reekwind

nesf wrote: »

It gives a perfect example of the use of quantitative analysis here actually and particularly the use of mixed methods approaches. Use quantitative methods to find the trend, then qualitative approaches too explain this. Or qualitative methods to predict a trend etc. Each on its own is far less useful.

I'm not suggesting that quantitative analysis has no role here but am pointing out its limits, particularly in this case. Simply counting up the number of dead men v women in computer games (surely an impossible task) will tell you very little about gender roles in games. That's because the real judgement comes not just from the occasion of death but the nature of said death (itself subjective) and the role of both it and the character in the wider narrative. You'll struggle to capture that in a dataset. There could well be no clear data 'trend' and still cause for concern.

Which, to reiterate, isn't to deny the role of quantitative analysis in these discussions.

Retr0gamer

Got to agree, comparing figures for men and women in this case will tell you nothing and is totally besides the point of that type of study. It would be misleading and totally meaningless.

nesf

Reekwind wrote: »

I'm not suggesting that quantitative analysis has no role here but am pointing out its limits, particularly in this case. Simply counting up the number of dead men v women in computer games (surely an impossible task) will tell you very little about gender roles in games. That's because the real judgement comes not just from the occasion of death but the nature of said death (itself subjective) and the role of both it and the character in the wider narrative. You'll struggle to capture that in a dataset. There could well be no clear data 'trend' and still cause for concern.

That point is about as nonsensical as me saying seeing one woman in one fridge in one comic book strip isn't useful when talking sexism in comics. It's not highlighting the limitations of qualitative analysis as this isn't something that can be analysed just using one method. Yes, you can't just count up the numbers of dead men and women in games and get something particularly useful but even in this thread you see everyone trying to find ways to put the numbers in context and find something useful because nobody is dumb enough to think that just the overall numbers says much about anything.


Both pure quantitative and pure qualitative methods fail quite badly here, the first because we not comparing equivalent things and the latter because we need to know if something is a general trend or common because if we just cherry pick single examples we can prove whatever we like because of cultural outliers in any medium. There's a reason why a synthesis of the two is very commonly found across the social sciences and related fields.

Reekwind

nesf wrote: »

...nobody is dumb enough to think that just the overall numbers says much about anything.

Except that I was replying to a post that was suggesting pretty much that. Or at least, that a count of such death tolls (ie who dies more - men or women) is somehow relevant. I think that attitude is also implicit in the calls for 'objective' analysis and the rejection of evidence that Sarkeesian has assembled on the basis that it's not some sort of comprehensive industry-wide survey. Both of which we've had in this thread.

With regards the broader topic, I think that Sarkeesian has done as good a job as possible in documenting that these tropes appear regularly in many leading games. That is, compiling evidence to support and illustrate her hypothesis. I'm not sure what more people expect her to do.

Both pure quantitative and pure qualitative methods fail quite badly here, the first because we not comparing equivalent things and the latter because we need to know if something is a general trend or common because if we just cherry pick single examples we can prove whatever we like because of cultural outliers in any medium. There's a reason why a synthesis of the two is very commonly found across the social sciences and related fields.

Which is nice but doesn't contradict anything I've said above. Unless you can find somewhere in my posts (in response to a pure quantitative approach) where I've suggested that we should abandon one or the other?

gizmo

Clandestine wrote: »

http://i.imgur.com/zHPLIan.jpg

Ah, excellent. I assume we shall start seeing people refer to this as "definitive proof" that she's made it up later today. Except...

She may, like many other people, use a third party application like MetroTwit to use Twitter. Upon seeing the tweets directed at her she could have just opened a browser window and googled for "twitter <username>". This would display the window precisely as shown in the screenshot. She wouldn't be logged in and the search bar would be empty.

As for the rest, the use of burner twitter accounts is prevalent in cases like this, the recent Quinn and Sarkeesian instances are no exceptions. The timing is easily explained given the barrage of tweets, she could have searched for the account after the initial ones and taken the screenshot at any time. The syntax point is just laughable, the tweets are short, bile filled bursts which could easily be thought up and typed on the fly. Even if they weren't it's also perfectly possible the poster in question gave it some forethought.

So yea, in summary, that's a piece of god awful "internet sleuthing". If people but half as much effort into engaging in some reasonable debate on the issue or, I don't know, attempting to critically review her work without just referring to her as a "****, *****, piece of **** lying *****" then maybe we wouldn't be subjected to this nonsense every time someone has a different opinion to us.

nesf

Reekwind wrote: »

Except that I was replying to a post that was suggesting pretty much that. Or at least, that a count of such death tolls (ie who dies more - men or women) is somehow relevant. I think that attitude is also implicit in the calls for 'objective' analysis and the rejection of evidence that Sarkeesian has assembled on the basis that it's not some sort of comprehensive industry-wide survey. Both of which we've had in this thread.

With regards the broader topic, I think that Sarkeesian has done as good a job as possible in documenting that these tropes appear regularly in many leading games. That is, compiling evidence to support and illustrate her hypothesis. I'm not sure what more people expect her to do.

My main issue with Sarkeesian is that I'd like to see her spend more time on why these tropes are a problem and less time simply pointing them out. I think this would be far more useful to the debate, similarly to how pointing out models are thin and then screaming "anorexia!" isn't very helpful on its own because it presumes we all agree that there's a direct link there and glosses over a much more complicated problem (anorexia definitely doesn't affect the average dieting teenager).

I'm not saying that you or others would object to this, just when I ask for more analysis less blather this is what I mean rather than asking for her to do a hobby wide survey which I think would be pointless anyway (one needs to analyse by both genre and the time it came out, judging 80s games as if they are examples of current opinion is inane and doing a genre specific look will be far more fruitful than mixing genres that have different cultures and problems).

With regard to the post you responded to, read the following ones. It was clearly a starting point not an end point for discussion. The user engaged immediately with others on the importance of "kind of death" not just "number of deaths" which indicates they appreciate the latter is not a useful statistic on its own.

Reekwind wrote: »

Which is nice but doesn't contradict anything I've said above. Unless you can find somewhere in my posts (in response to a pure quantitative approach) where I've suggested that we should abandon one or the other?

I mostly take issue with your tone and what I see as strawmen arguments targeting some non-existent demand for absolute rationality and hard numbers by others.

super_furry

Clandestine wrote: »

http://i.imgur.com/zHPLIan.jpg

Right so, you're sticking to the whole 'she's making it up' thing. Disappointing.

It's the exact same approach that was taken to the Zoe Quinn attacks - 'she wasn't doxxed, her parents weren't called and harassed, she's making the whole thing up'.

Timmyctc

gizmo wrote: »

Ah, excellent. I assume we shall start seeing people refer to this as "definitive proof" that she's made it up later today. Except...

She may, like many other people, use a third party application like MetroTwit to use Twitter. Upon seeing the tweets directed at her she could have just opened a browser window and googled for "twitter <username>". This would display the window precisely as shown in the screenshot. She wouldn't be logged in and the search bar would be empty.

As for the rest, the use of burner twitter accounts is prevalent in cases like this, the recent Quinn and Sarkeesian instances are no exceptions. The timing is easily explained given the barrage of tweets, she could have searched for the account after the initial ones and taken the screenshot at any time. The syntax point is just laughable, the tweets are short, bile filled bursts which could easily be thought up and typed on the fly. Even if they weren't it's also perfectly possible the poster in question gave it some forethought.

So yea, in summary, that's a piece of god awful "internet sleuthing". If people but half as much effort into engaging in some reasonable debate on the issue or, I don't know, attempting to critically review her work without just referring to her as a "****, *****, piece of **** lying *****" then maybe we wouldn't be subjected to this nonsense every time someone has a different opinion to us.

Well he never said it was definitive proof that it was faked. But the fact the screen was taken 13 seconds after the last tweet was a little suspicious. Given the nature of what we've seen the past week or two with Quinn, Fish et al if someone chooses to be skeptical of something like that (Which tbh I would be) then so be it. But no one said anything merited definitive proof. That was an assumption you made to latch onto people who don't agree with your opinion.

But srsly. About breaking this off into a seperate thread.

Clandestine

super_furry wrote: »

It's the exact same approach that was taken to the Zoe Quinn attacks - 'she wasn't doxxed, her parents weren't called and harassed, she's making the whole thing up'.

http://thespectacularspider-girl.tumblr.com/post/95179284529/zoe-quinn-fake-doxx-hack

gizmo

Timmyctc wrote: »

Well he never said it was definitive proof that it was faked. But the fact the screen was taken 13 seconds after the last tweet was a little suspicious. Given the nature of what we've seen the past week or two with Quinn, Fish et al if someone chooses to be skeptical of something like that (Which tbh I would be) then so be it. But no one said anything merited definitive proof. That was an assumption you made to latch onto people who don't agree with your opinion.

I never said it was definitive proof either. Based on the events of the last week or so and the content of the myriad of posts, comments and tweets which accompanied them, I sarcastically pointed out that that particular image and its "findings" will now probably be considered definitive proof too when it is anything but.

The timing, as I said, isn't particularly suspicious when you see how many tweets were posted per minute.

A bit of scepticism is always good, the problem is the default position of many of her most vociferous critics seems to be she's either making it up, playing the victim card or just over-exaggerating it. thunderf00t, the maker of the video mentioned in the tweet above which "debunked" her claims, had this lovely thing to say, for instance. Also note it was re-tweeted by one of the two gentlemen involved in this production.

Clandestine wrote: »

http://thespectacularspider-girl.tumblr.com/post/95179284529/zoe-quinn-fake-doxx-hack

I don't use tumblr but wouldn't the use of the Post by Email feature circumvent everything outlined in that post?

super_furry

Clandestine wrote: »

http://thespectacularspider-girl.tumblr.com/post/95179284529/zoe-quinn-fake-doxx-hack

Well you've just proven my point there really. 'They're all making it up, it never happened, they're just looking for attention.'

It's a case of Ocham's Razor for me. We know how nasty, spiteful and vindictive the internet can be, we know that doxxing, rape threats and death threats are common when the mob sets it's sights on a target and we know that people who stick their head above the parapet can easily raise up a hate mob.

Timmyctc

gizmo wrote: »

I never said it was definitive proof either. Based on the events of the last week or so and the content of the myriad of posts, comments and tweets which accompanied them, I sarcastically pointed out that that particular image and its "findings" will now probably be considered definitive proof too when it is anything but.

The timing, as I said, isn't particularly suspicious when you see how many tweets were posted per minute.

A bit of scepticism is always good, the problem is the default position of many of her most vociferous critics seems to be she's either making it up, playing the victim card or just over-exaggerating it. thunderf00t, the maker of the video mentioned in the tweet above which "debunked" her claims, had this lovely thing to say, for instance. Also note it was re-tweeted by one of the two gentlemen involved in this production.


I don't use tumblr but wouldn't the use of the Post by Email feature circumvent everything outlined in that post?

It doesnt really matter who re-tweeted it tbf. Thunderf00t (While I don't wholy agree with him) made many valid points, one of them beig that when he received death threats he went to the FBI and they traced the route of them fairly sharpish, Sarkeesian went to Polygon among other outlets and the media coverage did coincide with the release of a new video. She is far from the only Youtuber to get death threats regularly.

Woodysgamertag gets them basically every video (or he did when I used to watch)
Yer man that was swatted the other night, one of 'The Creatures', got them quite regularly as far as I recall. In the grand scheme of things she's making a bigger deal of it than most and all this from a fairly suspect Twitter handle. (I do fully believe she gets vitriol landed at her from loads of genuine accounts but the one she chose to highlight is suspect)

And she does like to play victim. Even just recently there about the Hitman video.
She makes out that people calling her up on what was an outright lie about a Devs game is somehow negative?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0qxtKz2vZw#t=2610

Clandestine

gizmo wrote: »

She may, like many other people, use a third party application like MetroTwit to use Twitter. Upon seeing the tweets directed at her she could have just opened a browser window and googled for "twitter <username>". This would display the window precisely as shown in the screenshot. She wouldn't be logged in and the search bar would be empty.

It was taken from a tablet, and it looks like she is using the official twitter app or website. Regardless, none of this explains why she simply wouldn't be logged in.

gizmo wrote: »

The timing is easily explained given the barrage of tweets, she could have searched for the account after the initial ones and taken the screenshot at any time. The syntax point is just laughable, the tweets are short, bile filled bursts which could easily be thought up and typed on the fly. Even if they weren't it's also perfectly possible the poster in question gave it some forethought.

Although the typing time is possible, I still doubt any actual troll would send 10 tweets within seconds of each other and be noticed so quickly (by someone who gets tweeted at thousands of times a day) and by someone who isn't even logged in.The threats themselves are so over the top, they read like a bad writer for NCIS or a Lifetime movie wrote them while imagining "what would a crazy troll write?".

Clandestine

gizmo wrote: »

I don't use tumblr but wouldn't the use of the Post by Email feature circumvent everything outlined in that post?

Then the hacker would have had to have access to her email account, but that wasn't compromised.

She also didn't say this was the case, she said the account was "taken over" which to me implies that the actual tumblr account was hacked. But, from a viewing of the tumblr page I posted, it wouldn't be possible to post anything like the said it was.

Clandestine

super_furry wrote: »

Well you've just proven my point there really. 'They're all making it up, it never happened, they're just looking for attention.'

It's a case of Ocham's Razor for me. We know how nasty, spiteful and vindictive the internet can be, we know that doxxing, rape threats and death threats are common when the mob sets it's sights on a target and we know that people who stick their head above the parapet can easily raise up a hate mob.

"I'm not going to address this, but I'm just going to say I'm right anyway"

Timmyctc

Furthermore one thing that irks me is if she is so fussed about Devs making things more equal and more female oriented (And that is partly what she wants, because a game's protagonist can only be one or the other) Why is it left to things like 4chan (Of all people) to support things like the The Fine Young Capitalists.

Surely that is 100% exactly down to a T what FemFreq is all about. Females in the industry would only be a positive thing but sure she could have had the whole thing funded with 1 tweet of support but chose not to. She could have perhaps set aside some of that 100k+ funding she got to support women in the industry she is so valiantly trying to save but doesn't. I don't think she's ever mentioned anything of the sort actually. (Open to correction btw) But it seems She takes much more pride in pointing out where Males have gone wrong than how we could help females break into the industry a lot easier.

Just had a look and she does receive calls from a fair few asking to support things like Tuition free Programming courses for women and TFYC among others. Disappointing how it only takes 13 seconds to screenshot an insult but she has yet to support any programs to promote females in the industry. (OpenToCorrection)

Potatoeman

e_e wrote: »

ALL critics are biased, that is precisely the point. It's the way they can articulate their point of view and provoke discussion that is valuable. Whether you think Anita does this well or not is up to you though.

Part of the problem is that she had a goal of being educational in her kick starter and produced a biased critical piece, she has presented opinion as fact. Which really makes it of no use in the classroom
If she wanted to do a feminists view of women in games that would have been fine if she said so from the start.

super_furry

Clandestine wrote: »

"I'm not going to address this, but I'm just going to say I'm right anyway"

No I just don't accept a random tumblr page as proof that she faked the haking, faked the doxxing, fake the death threats, faked the rape threats and faked the abuse her family received. In the same manner I don't accept that a very tenuous jpg dissection on a twitter timeline is proof that someone is sending death threats and rape threats to themselves. Especially when I'm aware what the likes of /b/ /v/ and some MRA red-pillers are capable of.

Timmyctc

super_furry wrote: »

No I just don't accept a random tumblr page as proof that she faked the haking, faked the doxxing, fake the death threats, faked the rape threats and faked the abuse her family received. In the same manner I don't accept that a very tenuous jpg dissection on a twitter timeline is proof that someone is sending death threats and rape threats to themselves. Especially when I'm aware what the likes of /b/ /v/ and some MRA red-pillers are capable of.

Hey now. /v/ by and large are a good group. They basically funded TFYC themselves. They have a vested interest in it I can't imagine them jumping out being mysoginistic now.

BMMachine

Jesus, she can't even be threatened by weirdos and morons without being taken to a kangaroo court over it.

NO GIRLS ALLOWED!

gizmo

Timmyctc wrote: »

It doesnt really matter who re-tweeted it tbf. Thunderf00t (While I don't wholy agree with him) made many valid points, one of them beig that when he received death threats he went to the FBI and they traced the route of them fairly sharpish, Sarkeesian went to Polygon among other outlets and it the media coverage did coincide with the release of a new video. She is far from the only Youtuber to get death threats regularly.

In the context of what I said, it does matter because it directly links to what I said about the default positions of "her most vociferous critics". As for their supposedly differing approaches to receiving death threats, how do you know Sarkeesian didn't contact the cops or any other law enforcement organisation? In fact, how do you know for a fact that thunderf00t did? Also, from reading the Polygon article, she did not approach Polygon, they reported on her tweets, thus making the claims against her even more ludicrous.

Timmyctc wrote: »

Woodysgamertag gets them basically every video (or he did when I used to watch)
Yer man that was swatted the other night, one of the creatures, got them quite regularly as far as I recall. In the grand scheme of things she's making a bigger deal of it than most and all this from a fairly suspect Twitter handle. (I do fully believe she gets vitriol landed at her from loads of genuine accounts but the one she chose to highlight is suspect)

I'm not really sure what to say to this. The "it" you're referring to is a barrage of online abuse which has included death and rape threats. I don't really think one should be encouraged not to make a big deal of it. As for the example she's given, firstly as I've outlined it's not suspicious given the reams of other examples out there and secondly, I don't doubt for one second that any other specific example she gives will be picked apart given enough wiggle room in terms of visible screen space.

Timmyctc wrote: »

And she does like to play victim. Even just recently there about the Hitman video.
She makes out that people calling her up on what was an outright lie about a Devs game is somehow negative?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0qxtKz2vZw#t=2610

No, she's saying the manner in which gets the criticism is hard to deal with, not that the criticism is unfounded.

The Hitman point, however, is a good one. It is a prime example of one of my issues with her videos, she quite often bends over backwards to make a game seem "worse" than it actually is. I mean, anyone who has played Hitman knows you don't do what she did in the video, they know that they will be actively discouraged from doing what she did and they know they'll be penalised for it. For her then to come to the conclusion which she did about it is worth a stern rebuttal.

Clandestine wrote: »

It was taken from a tablet, and it looks like she is using the official twitter app or website. Regardless, none of this explains why she simply wouldn't be logged in.

It looks like neither the iOS or Android apps to me, it looks like a desktop screengrab. As for not being logged in, I use MetroTwit on my desktops and I'm never logged into the website so it doesn't really prove anything.

Clandestine wrote: »

Although the typing time is possible, I still doubt any actual troll would send 10 tweets within seconds of each other and be noticed so quickly (by someone who gets tweeted at thousands of times a day) and by someone who isn't even logged in.The threats themselves are so over the top, they read like a bad writer for NCIS or a Lifetime movie wrote them while imagining "what would a crazy troll write?".

Given the amount of nonsense I've seen hurled at a variety of people both directly and indirectly over the last week or so it unfortunately doesn't surprise me in the least. As for the quality of the writing, I'm not really sure what a legitimate death threat looks like so I can't really comment.

Clandestine wrote: »

Then the hacker would have had to have access to her email account, but that wasn't compromised.

She also didn't say this was the case, she said the account was "taken over" which to me implies that the actual tumblr account was hacked. But, from a viewing of the tumblr page I posted, it wouldn't be possible to post anything like the said it was.

Pretty sure she did say this was the case but as I said, I don't use tumblr nor want anything to do with it so I can't comment comprehensively either way.

Timmyctc wrote: »

Furthermore one thing that irks me is if she is so fussed about Devs making things more equal and more female oriented (And that is partly what she wants, because a game's protagonist can only be one or the other) Why is it left to things like 4chan (Of all people) to support things like the The Fine Young Capitalists.

Well I, as a male gamer, would like to see more female protagonists too when it makes sense or at the very least better written or more interesting female non-player characters. Is that a bad thing?

The problem some indies had with The Fine Young Capitalists was that they viewed it asking people to work for free. Yes it was a competition and all but their argument seemed to be that there were better ways for female developers to get into the industry and gain exposure. The crux being, do it like everyone else, work on your own portfolio, enter game jams etc...

As for how Sarkeesian spends the money she received for the Kickstarter, as far as I'm aware all funds received need to go into the making of the product in some form or another, she can't just give it away to related causes.

mewso

I don't understand the need to prove these people are faking. Take them at their word and move on. If someone is pathological enough to fake threats like this then they will dig their own hole eventually. We don't need these ridiculous "here is an image with some red writing on it that proves x lied" links to bog down what could be an actual discussion. There are many many forums where you can discuss this "evidence". We don't really need to do it here do we? You can have your suspicions (I have my own) but lets leave it there.

Timmyctc

Right lads **** it. Heres the sexism thread.

Timmyctc

I didn't realise Phil actually deleted his twitter altogether. I hope he gets some help and comes back. Fez was enjoyable but the guy has issues. Has anyone else that worked on Fez commented on him ever?

nesf

I'll try and start on a constructive point:

I can understand the argument when people say Zelda was sexist due to tropes/roles. I've never heard anyone describe that game as sexist or negatively for sexist reasons and the game seems to have been very popular amongst female gamers I've known.

I don't dispute the first part, I'm curious about the relevance though. There seems to be an inbuilt assumption that we need both male and female playable characters. I find this somewhat odd though, I don't automatically categorise a game as sexist if it doesn't do this and I've not noticed an issue for female gamers with male characters or male gamers with female characters in feeling a sense of "agency" and that "they" were achieving things in the game. Is the focus on male and female playable characters a red herring here and should the focus be more on whether all players can feel this sense of agency when playing? Similar to how the neither men nor women seem to absolutely require a main character of their sex in order to find a book enjoyable.

K.O.Kiki

Timmyctc wrote: »

I didn't realise Phil actually deleted his twitter altogether. I hope he gets some help and comes back. Fez was enjoyable but the guy has issues. Has anyone else that worked on Fez commented on him ever?

He also deleted his Twitter last July... and this June...

Interested Observer

Those tweets screened above are absolutely shocking, reporting them to the police would be a good way of finding out who sent them surely?