The big Phil Fish, Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian discussion thread

DeVore

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Got to agree, comparing figures for men and women in this case will tell you nothing and is totally besides the point of that type of study. It would be misleading and totally meaningless.

Except that does seem to be what Mr Sarkessian does... picks a few cherry-picked examples and dresses up subjective opinion as researched fact.


btw, I'm not saying he complaint isn't valid, women certainly aren't treated well in games, but her approach is flawed and unhelpful.

Interested Observer

Have just watched that video saying she's completely misrepresented Hitman.

Seems like it has a point?

wandatowell

The music industry has been churning out all types of sh1t about women for years. Why doesnt she rant about that?

BMMachine

wandatowell wrote: »

The music industry has been churning out all types of sh1t about women for years. Why doesnt she rant about that?

because she is far more interested in video games

Generic Dreadhead

BMMachine wrote: »

because she is far more interested in video games

Except for the actual playing of them

Calhoun

Has she left home ? Or has the journal been stealing from here ? I can't find much information about it online but if she was forced to leave home it's a sad state of affairs and should be bigger news.

Like what happened to the right of free speech in America, still amazed at how this has gone down.

BMMachine

all that this says to me is that there is a very large portion of male gamers that just can't handle feminism and it breaks their brains.

Its the exact same pattern of thinking I've seen in dozens of games over many years, they can't handle the potential of something. "I'm potentially bad? No, I'm me, I'm great! rage rage rage troll troll troll." "I'm potentially sexist? No, I can't be. rage rage rage troll troll troll."
They like to think that they are 'smart' and are always trying to predict future lines of thought and this causes them to react with such volatility that it quite literally snaps their brains. If you feel 'offended' by videos on sexism within games then there is something more going on there. If you were comfortable with yourself, it wouldn't be an issue. The fact that we are seeing such an extreme railing against Anitas videos really truly makes a lot of her points hit home.

DeVore

BMMachine wrote: »

all that this says to me is that there is a very large portion of male gamers that just can't handle feminism and it breaks their brains.

Its the exact same pattern of thinking I've seen in dozens of games over many years, they can't handle the potential of something. "I'm potentially bad? No, I'm me, I'm great! rage rage rage troll troll troll." "I'm potentially sexist? No, I can't be. rage rage rage troll troll troll."
They like to think that they are 'smart' and are always trying to predict future lines of thought and this causes them to react with such volatility that it quite literally snaps their brains. If you feel 'offended' by videos on sexism within games then there is something more going on there. If you were comfortable with yourself, it wouldn't be an issue. The fact that we are seeing such an extreme railing against Anitas videos really truly makes a lot of her points hit home.

By this logic if I got up and said all women who have had abortions are child abusing murderers and they all got upset and angry about that (as they rightfully would) ... then they prove my point?? Would you say that my comments were so true that it broke their brain?

I'm sorry, what you are saying above is called Confirmation Bias. (yours, in case that isn't clear )

Her videos prove nothing and the backlash against her (real or invented) do not confirm her videos findings.

Calhoun

Indeed it's a shame what is happening to her but doesn't mean what she is saying is right, I haven't actually watched any of her videos but if I did I would surley question what was being said.

Nice generalisation against games by the way, I have yet to meet anyone like that when I play online.

BMMachine

DeVore wrote: »

By this logic if I got up and said all women who have had abortions are child abusing murderers and they all got upset and angry about that (as they rightfully would) ... then they prove my point?? Would you say that my comments were so true that it broke their brain?

No, what I think would happen is most of them would think "this guy hasn't got a clue" and move on with themselves. The people that would get outraged are those who look for something to get outraged by, as with (both sides) of the reaction to these videos.

DeVore wrote:

I'm sorry, what you are saying above is called Confirmation Bias. (yours, in case that isn't clear )

Her videos prove nothing and the backlash against her (real or invented) do not confirm her videos findings.

But she isn't standing up and condemning all. What she is doing is focussing the spotlight on aspects of gaming that have always been there. I don't agree with large portions of what she says, for example, she completely ignores the existence of Samus Aran from Metroid. I also believe she blows a lot out of proportion and doesn't have a good grasp on the marketing aspect of the industry.
What she is right about though is that there is a gender bias amongst a very vocal proportion of gamers and within games themselves. Ever play League of Legends? It is one of the most popular games in the world today. A ton of the female characters quite literally have breasts bigger than their own head. Over sexed and needless. This is a recurrent theme through loads of very popular modern games (and movies and music but this is a games forum).

Sure she's over the top and I don't particularly rate the depth of her criticism but at the end of the day, the topic she has brought up has caused a lot of people, a lot of young males, to react in the most pathetic and stupid ways they possibly can. Theres something to that, theres something there and I think its a problem with a lot of root causes of which sexism is just one of the threads (Racism is another but one hot potato at a time )

Retr0gamer

I find her criticism so far has amount to just pointing out tropes and having no real exploration of the social effects of these tropes or why they exist. It's akin to saying Birth of a Nation is racist and leaving at that. Now she moved a little bit away from that in the last two videos but I think she really needs to explore that more instead of giving it lip service. I'm hoping her videos improve, the last two have definitely seen a big improvement.

Interested Observer

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I find her criticism so far has amount to just pointing out tropes and having no real exploration of the social effects of these tropes or why they exist. It's akin to saying Birth of a Nation is racist and leaving at that. Now she moved a little bit away from that in the last two videos but I think she really needs to explore that more instead of giving it lip service.

I find a lot of the time she'll make some massively sweeping generalisation about a trope and how the player is supposed to feel about/react to it, but it often has absolutely no basis that I can see.

Generic Dreadhead

Has anyone here, be they male or female, or even people you know, actually ever thought "that's sexist" while playing a game?
I've asked female friends who are gamers and none have ever had any ill feeling towards a game or the gaming community as a result.
You can wax lyrical about how she's looking at systemically negatively portrayals of women in games and how it's "ok" or at least perceived as such due to general sexism in the society. But the games are not their to offend, neither is their content, neither are their developers. No one wants to make women feel bad in gaming except for trolls that appear in all walks of life (and probably have issues with other races and gender orientations) and people like Anita

Adamantium

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Whatever about the videos themselves, there has most definitely been a torrent of the vilest and most violent abuse and threats directed her direction from the very beginning of this project. Don't think there's any room for debate about that whatsoever, and the actions of the few are completely indefensible.

Their vile is warranted because her acts are vile and are been whitewashed. I can't believe people are defending/protecting her this woman and her actions.

People should take responsibility for their actions, that's the price of true equality and the standards are aren't been applied across the board. We can mentally masturbate over this until the sun burns out but it comes down this:

There is a whitewash and if I made this post on Reddit, neogaf or the like it'd removed, because somebody did the unspeakable act of stating the sordid facts.

Morag

Adamantium wrote: »

The first was professional life misconduct, the second was personal life misconduct, I mean seriously it's not surprising that people will talk about one and not the other.

Interested Observer

Morag wrote: »

The first was professional life misconduct, the second was personal life misconduct, I mean seriously it's not surprising that people will talk about one and not the other.

But... there's been an absolute ton of talk about Zoe Quinn though.

nesf

Cormac... wrote: »

Has anyone here, be they male or female, or even people you know, actually ever thought "that's sexist" while playing a game?

Um, of course?

Retr0gamer

Cormac... wrote: »

Has anyone here, be they male or female, or even people you know, actually ever thought "that's sexist" while playing a game?

Oh god yeah. The god awful writing in most games is absolutely rife with it.

Potatoeman

Morag wrote: »

The first was professional life misconduct, the second was personal life misconduct, I mean seriously it's not surprising that people will talk about one and not the other.

Its not talk. Its unprofessional behaviour. What he done could get them sued. What she done could get her boss sued/fired as he is in authority.

Adamantium

Morag wrote: »

The first was professional life misconduct, the second was personal life misconduct, I mean seriously it's not surprising that people will talk about one and not the other.

So sleeping with 5 colleagues in the gaming industry isn't professional misconduct on her part on the scale of making off the cuff comments. Which one do you think has caused more trouble in the real world? There are more than people's feeling mixed up in this, this isn't some SJW crusade that will only irk the few enthusiasts, people lives and careers have been ruined, her own included. In fact she mixed personal and professional lives together lavishly, so it's a bit rich and reckless to say "Don't judge me, I wasn't supposed to be caught, you can't judge me on both" C'mon, be intellectually honest

Nothing operates in a vacuum.

johnny_ultimate

nesf wrote: »

I can understand the argument when people say Zelda was sexist due to tropes/roles. I've never heard anyone describe that game as sexist or negatively for sexist reasons and the game seems to have been very popular amongst female gamers I've known.

I don't dispute the first part, I'm curious about the relevance though. There seems to be an inbuilt assumption that we need both male and female playable characters. I find this somewhat odd though, I don't automatically categorise a game as sexist if it doesn't do this and I've not noticed an issue for female gamers with male characters or male gamers with female characters in feeling a sense of "agency" and that "they" were achieving things in the game. Is the focus on male and female playable characters a red herring here and should the focus be more on whether all players can feel this sense of agency when playing? Similar to how the neither men nor women seem to absolutely require a main character of their sex in order to find a book enjoyable.

One thing I would say first is that the word 'sexism' is a bit of a tough one itself. I think it's very possible to point out concerns with the representations of female characters in a game without accusing it of sexism at the same time. Sexism to me suggests something more malicious and aggressive, or something that has dangerously crept into the deeper subconscious.

Zelda? I don't think I'd call the games sexist, and to its credit some of the games in the series have tried to expand Zelda's role into something more active (if almost always stopping shy of actually letting the player control her). I think many games that employ 'damsel in distress' type situations aren't necessarily sexist either. Even within individual titles, the 'save the princess' idea can be efficient and even appropriate. Where the danger starts to creep in is when they do start becoming tropes - the rule as opposed to individual exceptions. When the helpless princess is used in one game, that's not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself (depends on the delivery, like everything). But when it starts becoming so common in a wider picture as to be repetitive, lazy and frustrating, that's when it's probably worth pointing out, and identifying games that do little or nothing to step away from it. Games can, on their own terms, be largely innocent, but can sadly add to a bigger picture. From a personal perspective, I'd also suggest the prevalence of the tropes is just boring. Just look at how refreshing some of the more recent Disney 'princess' efforts - like Frozen and Brave - are when they have chosen to give the princesses more dynamic, active and unique characterisations than their predecessors (and also subtly subverting the long-standing prince charming concept). It makes everything feel fresh and exciting again, and the extraordinarily positive reception they've received from almost all quarters is testament to what happens when you're willing to put that little bit extra effort in.

There are certainly more explicit examples of poor gender representations out there - the common (and often pretty repugnant) oversexualisation of female characters, for example. But there's more than enough of a discrepancy out there that sadly we can't dismiss the gender divide yet. You're absolutely right - if a game is well made any player should be able to comfortably adapt to playing as many, many types different character - regardless of gender, race, sexuality, species, whatever variables we choose to pick. I think most of do that already, to be honest, without giving it a second thought. But given that there's actually quite a lack of variety as it stands, and certain forms of representation have dominated so many games, I wouldn't call it a red herring, and more something that is in pretty urgent need of addressing to ensure that gaming is an accessible, diverse and inclusive medium.

Generic Dreadhead

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Oh god yeah. The god awful writing in most games is absolutely rife with it.

This is can agree with, but is it a lot worse then the way certain races or professions are portrayed? It might be a little bit worse, but I don't believe it would warp a young mind to think less of women

Potatoeman

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Oh god yeah. The god awful writing in most games is absolutely rife with it.

Most of it comes back to lazy writing in many cases.

johnny_ultimate

Adamantium wrote: »

Their vile is warranted because her acts are vile and are been whitewashed. I can't believe people are defending/protecting her this woman and her actions.

I was talking about Anita Sarkeesian there, who has done nothing whatsoever to deserve death and rape threats (not that death and rape threats are really ever a rational, helpful response to any situation). I really can't believe people are suggesting the comments are worthy of defence.

And, as loathe as I am to even give this tabloid crap any more attention than it deserves, how is having sex vile? This is someone's personal life we're talking about, and they're free to live it as they will. In 2014, I would have liked to hope cheating on a boyfriend is not sufficient justification for a lynch mob. Even if the details (which nobody knows) shed Zoe Quinn in a negative light, it's a personal subject that does not even remotely warrant a public airing.

Since there is pretty much no evidence whatsoever to suggest any professional misconduct here (and in any industry people are going to meet and have sexual relationships with people in the same or related fields), and any 'evidence' that does exist is extremely speculative at best, these rumours and the pitchfork wielding mob calling for justice do not deserve the oxygen I have wasted typing this.

nesf

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

There are certainly more explicit examples of poor gender representations out there - the common (and often pretty repugnant) oversexualisation of female characters, for example. But there's more than enough of a discrepancy out there that sadly we can't dismiss the gender divide yet. You're absolutely right - if a game is well made any player should be able to comfortably adapt to playing as many, many types different character - regardless of gender, race, sexuality, species, whatever variables we choose to pick. I think most of do that already, to be honest, without giving it a second thought. But given that there's actually quite a lack of variety as it stands, and certain forms of representation have dominated so many games, I wouldn't call it a red herring, and more something that is in pretty urgent need of addressing to ensure that gaming is an accessible, diverse and inclusive medium.

I'm not sure I'd agree. I think the focus on playable characters is based on a false assumption (usually by non-gamers) that being able to play the character is the most important part rather than looking at the broader view of it's the characters in general who matter. The average RPG is normally remembered for the characters that are met rather than the character played by the player for instance. I think this is a far more important area to root out any hackneyed stereotypes, it doesn't matter if the player is playing a male or female character if all the characters they meet are so much dross. It's more important to have well written female characters in a game where female characters fit into the story than female character skins for the player.

Morag

Are video games problematic when it comes to how women are portrayed in them? Yes.
Are the Feminist Frequency webseries problematic? Yes

Is there anything in this godsdamned world which isn't Problematic when it comes to gender politics and how people are portrayed and expected to conform and how that is reflected in art and pop culture? I don't think there is.

The Feminist Frequency is a video webseries looks at more then just video games but it wasn't the movies fans who have reacted so badly.

Yes I am a woman who play video games started with a comadore 64, still Klaxx and have an ever growing unplayed guilt list on steam. I am also a feminist, but I have kept out of most of the discussions I see around this to let men have these discussions.

Usually gender politics is something which I don't see most men taking an interest in and I think men need places to start having these conversations.

Yes the FemFeq videos have a bias, yes they are flawed, yes there is an element of Erotophobia which I find all too prevalent in main stream American feminism, but the fact these discussions are happening and are not just focused on what femfeq has gotten wrong but also the issues with in video games, esp over the last 15 years when it went mainstream and became more hetro male gaze orientated and more focused on a male gamer demographic, this is to my mind a good thing.

As for having female player models and good female chars in the game, why can't we have both?

I mean Unreal back in 1998 had 6 player models, 3 male, 3 female and a range of skin tones, first game I played the ever loving **** out of,
doubt I would have become such a gamer with out that game and part of the draw was after playing quake world & quake was I could play as a woman.

House of Blaze

Morag wrote: »

The first was professional life misconduct, the second was personal life misconduct, I mean seriously it's not surprising that people will talk about one and not the other.

It's also the professional misconduct of her boss and several other journalists. If anything it's the male parties involved who should be being covered by the gaming press, specifically because this is a case of their professional misconduct.

Not saying that her being targeted is right, but it does seem strange that a scandal this big has been met with what can only be described as an eery silence on the issue.

I mean wherever your allegiance lies on the matter, it's big enough to be newsworthy.

Generic Dreadhead

Anything else would be Slut-shaming essentially

nesf

Morag wrote: »

As for having female player models and good female chars in the game, why can't we have both?

Because it doesn't work to have both in all games? In a sci-fi FPS there's no excuse for no female characters unless there's some good storyline reason. In a WWII fps about regular armed forces, then no, you shouldn't have any female American paratroopers for the same reason you should have no Japanese-American ones.


It's a poor metric to judge games generally by since we need to actually dig quite deep into a game to figure out whether or not there should be female playable characters or not. Conversely if you find a walking pair of bewbs in a game then unless it's satire or whatever...

johnny_ultimate

nesf wrote: »

I'm not sure I'd agree. I think the focus on playable characters is based on a false assumption (usually by non-gamers) that being able to play the character is the most important part rather than looking at the broader view of it's the characters in general who matter. The average RPG is normally remembered for the characters that are met rather than the character played by the player for instance. I think this is a far more important area to root out any hackneyed stereotypes, it doesn't matter if the player is playing a male or female character if all the characters they meet are so much dross. It's more important to have well written female characters in a game where female characters fit into the story than female character skins for the player.

Oh, I totally agree here and didn't mean to suggest my points only applied to playable characters. In fact, a lot of the issues being discussed here inevitably affect supporting characters and NPCs more than the actual player controlled ones. And good writing is definitely something more games should focus on - it's amazing that games that are well-written - not even exceptionally written - still have the power to completely flabbergast us.

But again I do firmly believe that there is currently a wild imbalance that exists when it comes to games, and one that's in vital need for addressing. As Morag says - and it's amazing that the phrase hasn't been mentioned before - it's that 'male gaze' that dominates the medium. We need to address that - it might only be one part of the 'making games better' equation, but it's definitely not a negligible part IMO (nor, incidentally, are race, sexuality or the various other areas where a widespread homogeneity exists in gaming)!