Is it self defeatist to say that some men are meant to be alone??‏

Mike747

macplato wrote: »

So tell me Mike, do you believe that the whole population of men is made of "nice guys" who are also doormats, and confident men who don't give a shít about women? About fifty-fifty? Do you really not know men who are comfortable with who they are, and therefore kind and respectful to women? In my world, most men are just like that. There are some doormats, and some as*holes, but most men are really lovely.

I believe the 'nice guy' finishes last. As I said before I know many guys who I would consider genuinely nice and yet they get passed over time and time again. Yet I know some cold calculating mother****ers who treat women like crap and are never alone. Life ain't fair I guess.

Piliger

strobe wrote: »

nice
adjective\ˈnīs\
: giving pleasure or joy : good and enjoyable
: attractive or of good quality
: kind, polite, and friendly




What dictionaries are some people using?

I'm nice as ****ing pie and I've been beating them off with a big ****ty stick since the age of 14.

I really think this whole "women don't like nice guys" thing is just a comforting lie certain people choose to tell themselves.

I mean, if the reason you aren't getting a ride is "because women don't like nice guys", then the issue is them, not you. You aren't doing anything 'wrong' or lacking in any way, your just 'too perfect' and they are the flawed ones.

Bollox. Grow some balls and be honest with yourself.

Well said. It is of course a lie. One that some damaged people use as part of their way of understanding and explaining away their own flaws. As I said before nice guys get the majority of the best partners. But to admit that, for some, would be to undermine their delusional construct of how life works.

Wibbs

Piliger wrote: »

Well as I said show me a man who doesn't care and I'll show you a man who is a complete dick or a socio-path.

Oh I read you the first time. I still think it's a nonsense.

Why would a man go up and approach a women he doesn't give a crap about in the first place ? If he didn't give a crap then he would have no reason to even approach her.

If I see a woman and think "hmmm she's cute". There's cute all over the place, but in that instance I picked her and that's all I know about her. Where would giving a crap come into that equation? Not unless I"m projecting magical thinking nonsense and mistaking her pert arse for personality, intelligence and compatibility. And since I'm not a 13 year girl and don't believe in "love at first sight" and all that guff, all I know is "cute/attractive to me".

If we get to talking and she's nice, engaging and receptive then my care level goes up as I've more "invested" in her. If she rejects me at that point in a nice way I think "ah well that's a pity but it was nice to have a chat". She may even end up as an acquaintance, even a friend given time. If she rejects me in a daft or aggressive way I think "bullet dodged. Unattractive up close. Good to know. Next".

Plus I don't make the habit of finding a woman physically attractive and hanging around for ages to see if I can "make a move". Also I've never had someone "grow on me", if I didn't find them attractive at the start.

Humans are rarely logical.

I would disagree. They're often not obviously logical in an a + B = C manner, it's more nuanced than that, but generally people follow pretty set behaviours based on environment and experiences.

It's never appropriate to not give a crap about a woman he thinks is worth knowing beforehand.

That's my very point. I don't know about them beforehand. I don't run with the idea of "oh I think she's lovely from afar therefore, she is a special prize and I must invest all my emotions and ego to win her". That seems daft to me and the source of sooooo many men's fúckups and "friendzone" ballsology.

Mike747 wrote:

Yet I know some cold calculating mother****ers who treat women like crap and are never alone.

Just my take, but as well as the word "nice" being confused with doormat, I also think it can be the case that "treating women like crap" is confused with "not taking crap off someone, just because they're a woman".

macplato

Mike747 wrote: »

I believe the 'nice guy' finishes last. As I said before I know many guys who I would consider genuinely nice and yet they get passed over time and time again. Yet I know some cold calculating mother****ers who treat women like crap and are never alone. Life ain't fair I guess.

So you don't know "nice guys" who are in happy relationships, or in-between relationships, or just single content, kind men doing their own thing? In that case, you may want to consider changing your environment, because really, what we believe about the world is a result of what we see around us. I have different life experiences to yours, and my vision of the world, of men - particularly nice men, is vastly different. You choose the people you surround yourself with, and this choice, in turn, colours your perception of the world - true story!

Mike747

macplato wrote: »

So you don't know "nice guys" who are in happy relationships, or in-between relationships, or just single content, kind men doing their own thing? In that case, you may want to consider changing your environment, because really, what we believe about the world is a result of what we see around us. I have different life experiences to yours, and my vision of the world, of men - particularly nice men, is vastly different. You choose the people you surround yourself with, and this choice, in turn, colours your perception of the world - true story!

Sure I know some who get the occasional girlfriend or one night stand. I would say most of them are pretty frustrated though.

Pug160

Golovkin p4p best wrote: »

There are reasons for everything, you are doing something to turn women off.

I know that, which is why I have stated it in previous posts.

Daveysil15 wrote: »

You don't know that though. Maybe the women he's meeting just aren't attracted to him.

I have a good idea what some of the problems are and appearance definitely isn't one of them. It's failure to build enough rapport and possibly a few insecurities I have that are showing in subtle ways. I'm also not a major charmer but I'm at a stage now where I should be capable of getting results. It might actually be that I've put too much emphasis on looks as I get plenty of kisses but usually no date afterwards.

It's ultimately my own fault and I know some of the reasons behind it, but it's frustrating that we live in a society here that takes things so seriously. Over in America, going out on a date means nothing, but over here a lot of women make a huge deal out of it and don't seem to think of it as a no lose situation. I think I could do alright if I try other methods of meeting women actually, but I'll still go out to enjoy myself. I meet a lot of the wrong type (for me) of women in bars.

Daveysil15

Golovkin p4p best wrote: »

If he's consistently not attracting any women or not having any success then he is doing something wrong

Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. It can often be a case of someone been themselves and having no success for a long time and then eventually they find someone who likes them for who they are.

That brings me onto the topic of changing yourself which Mike brought up...

Mike747 wrote: »

I had to change almost every facet of my personality to do so!

I think that's very extreme tbh. Why should you have to change something as fundamental as your personality to try and attract someone? Another thing I've noticed is that its usually men who are asked/expected to do this. Maybe that's because men usually do the approaching, but to quote ongarboy...

ongarboy wrote: »

Sure, we can all improve or modify traits, habits or behaviours but if I thought I had to change who I ultimately was as a person just to please/attract a partner, I'm not sure I could . It would be putting on an act that would eventually crumble.

+1. By all means improve yourself but if you try to change who you are then people will eventually see through the façade.

Pug160 wrote: »

I know that, which is why I have stated it in previous posts.


I have a good idea what some of the problems are and appearance definitely isn't one of them. It's failure to build enough rapport and possibly a few insecurities I have that are showing in subtle ways. I'm also not a major charmer but I'm at a stage now where I should be capable of getting results. It might actually be that I've put too much emphasis on looks as I get plenty of kisses but usually no date afterwards.

It's ultimately my own fault and I know some of the reasons behind it, but it's frustrating that we live in a society here that takes things so seriously. Over in America, going out on a date means nothing, but over here a lot of women make a huge deal out of it and don't seem to think of it as a no lose situation. I think I could do alright if I try other methods of meeting women actually, but I'll still go out to enjoy myself. I meet a lot of the wrong type (for me) of women in bars.

The biggest problem I always faced in bars and clubs was building rapport, mainly because its so hard to hold a conversation with all the noise. I have no problem approaching women in that environment but its trying to keep the conversation going that's the problem. Have you tried other methods of meeting women like online dating?

Mike747

Daveysil15 wrote: »

That brings me onto the topic of changing yourself which Mike brought up...



I think that's very extreme tbh. Why should you have to change something as fundamental as your personality to try and attract someone? Another thing I've noticed is that its usually men who are asked/expected to do this. Maybe that's because men usually do the approaching, but to quote ongarboy...




+1. By all means improve yourself but if you try to change who you are then people will eventually see through the façade.

It wasn't my intention but when I look back I can say now that I'm very different person than I was. I wanted to improve an aspect of my life and I did.

Pug160

Daveysil15 wrote: »

The biggest problem I always faced in bars and clubs was building rapport, mainly because its so hard to hold a conversation with all the noise. I have no problem approaching women in that environment but its trying to keep the conversation going that's the problem. Have you tried other methods of meeting women like online dating?

If you don't build rapport or you meet really late in the night she probably won't remember much and in some cases it's almost like going on a blind date if you meet again. So when she gets that text the next day or week she's probably saying to herself that she doesn't know enough about you to justify a date. Meeting earlier in the night is better in theory but it sometimes doesn't work that way. Some guys can leave a good first impression, others need time, and time is not something you have a lot of in those environments. I think you've said that you've had a couple of girlfriends and a certain degree of success over the years so I'm assuming you're at least in the average Joe Bloggs category. I'm not even in that yet. I will say that I have improved as a person a lot recently, so it could be a case of catching up, and I'm almost there.

Yeah I've tried it but the women I liked tended to flake at the last hurdle. Online dating has its place, but I think it suits people who are a little bit older. Women are a little bit braver when they're more mature, and are more willing to take a chance. The only girls who are brave when they're young are the girls who need to be - not the hotter ones (yeah I know that sounds a bit harsh but I honestly think it's true). I'll give it a try in the future again when I'm a bit older and more settled. If I need to, that is.

I have a few other things I want to try as well. I might discuss those later.

Mike747

Mike747 wrote: »

Too shy. Too worried about being perceived as sleazy or creepy. Won't read the signals so he'll miss his chance etc.

Me to a tee. I used these exact words to explain why I didn't kiss a girl on our first date last year.

Daveysil15

Pug160 wrote: »

If you don't build rapport or you meet really late in the night she probably won't remember much and in some cases it's almost like going on a blind date if you meet again. So when she gets that text the next day or week she's probably saying to herself that she doesn't know enough about you to justify a date. Meeting earlier in the night is better in theory but it sometimes doesn't work that way. Some guys can leave a good first impression, others need time, and time is not something you have a lot of in those environments. I think you've said that you've had a couple of girlfriends and a certain degree of success over the years so I'm assuming you're at least in the average Joe Bloggs category. I'm not even in that yet. I will say that I have improved as a person a lot recently, so it could be a case of catching up, and I'm almost there.

Yeah I've tried it but the women I liked tended to flake at the last hurdle. Online dating has its place, but I think it suits people who are a little bit older. Women are a little bit braver when they're more mature, and are more willing to take a chance. The only girls who are brave when they're young are the girls who need to be - not the hotter ones (yeah I know that sounds a bit harsh but I honestly think it's true). I'll give it a try in the future again when I'm a bit older and more settled. If I need to, that is.

I have a few other things I want to try as well. I might discuss those later.

Well I've only ever been successful twice on nights out and they were both encounters with hen nights strangely enough. Women go a little crazy on hen nights - their inhibitions go straight out the window, but that's a topic for a whole other thread.

Yeah I suppose chatting to someone early on in the night can be a bit easier as you're more likely to be coherent, as is the person you're talking to.

I actually agree completely with your assertion on online dating. I've only been successful twice exploring this avenue too, well as far as getting a date is concerned anyway. Both women were older than me. I wouldn't say the mature women are more brave as such, but they seem to be more humble and have a better attitude towards dating in general. I think they get to an age where they realise they don't have as many options as they once did. From my experience the mature women seem to take online dating a bit more seriously and don't have as much of that window shopping mentality that a lot of the younger women have.

Pug160

I never said anyone had problems meeting women - I said that people here take dating a lot more seriously, instead of seeing it in a casual, nothing to lose kind of way. It is the way it is for a few reasons, but I'd say our over reliance on alcohol and shyness play a part. More dates means more opportunities, and from my experience casual dates are usually better anyway. Lots of people here don't want to go for a quick coffee as it's not really the done thing and as a consequence, people are quite often too shy when it's proposed, as I said.

Having problems in America? I doubt it, as even a few years back when I was much more awkward I did very well with the occasional American tourist I met. If you're talking about an American version of myself you're still wrong, as I'd have more opportunities.

The thing is, stuff like this seems to fuel the "women love bastards" or "treat them mean, keep them keen" generalisation. I just can't treat someone that way, it makes me feel horrible.

I'm more outgoing than I used to be but still feel rather dull and boring at times; it's like I never found myself and still live by what others tell me to do, to the point that I find it really hard to make decisions on my own. My fear is that it could be something like Aspergers or AvPD which might make it impossible for me to change things. I've suspected the former for a long time.

I recently turned 30 and unfortunately feel like I've been left on the shelf and may remain that way. However I'm starting an 8 week CBT course on Wednesday and I'm really hoping this might do something for me.

audi12

Karsini wrote: »

The thing is, stuff like this seems to fuel the "women love bastards" or "treat them mean, keep them keen" generalisation. I just can't treat someone that way, it makes me feel horrible.

I'm more outgoing than I used to be but still feel rather dull and boring at times; it's like I never found myself and still live by what others tell me to do, to the point that I find it really hard to make decisions on my own. My fear is that it could be something like Aspergers or AvPD which might make it impossible for me to change things. I've suspected the former for a long time.

I recently turned 30 and unfortunately feel like I've been left on the shelf and may remain that way. However I'm starting an 8 week CBT course on Wednesday and I'm really hoping this might do something for me.

Women are full of crap pretending they want to meet a nice guy they dont so being all nice to them is not going to get you anywhere. I am not saying you have to be horrible but being all nice will get you nowwhere

audi12

Karsini wrote: »

The thing is, stuff like this seems to fuel the "women love bastards" or "treat them mean, keep them keen" generalisation. I just can't treat someone that way, it makes me feel horrible.

I'm more outgoing than I used to be but still feel rather dull and boring at times; it's like I never found myself and still live by what others tell me to do, to the point that I find it really hard to make decisions on my own. My fear is that it could be something like Aspergers or AvPD which might make it impossible for me to change things. I've suspected the former for a long time.

I recently turned 30 and unfortunately feel like I've been left on the shelf and may remain that way. However I'm starting an 8 week CBT course on Wednesday and I'm really hoping this might do something for me.

fair play to you for starting to make an effort doing the course but you also need to man up and stop being one of those people who thinks life happens to them and they have no control because that is rubbish and a losers attitude

Piliger

audi12 wrote: »

fair play to you for starting to make an effort doing the course but you also need to man up and stop being one of those people who thinks life happens to them and they have no control because that is rubbish and a losers attitude

I find that an appallingly sexist and insulting comment. And it is clear that he is indeed being proactive.

Piliger

audi12 wrote: »

Women are full of crap pretending they want to meet a nice guy they dont so being all nice to them is not going to get you anywhere. I am not saying you have to be horrible but being all nice will get you nowwhere

Nice guys get the vast majority of the best women. That is the simple truth of it. The guys who lose out are the ones that buy into this losers interpretation of their own personal failures.

audi12

audi12 wrote: »

fair play to you for starting to make an effort doing the course but you also need to man up and stop being one of those people who thinks life happens to them and they have no control because that is rubbish and a losers attitude

Telling someone to "man up" is the same as telling someone with clinical depression to "snap out of it". It's a useless comment on its own.

audi12

Piliger wrote: »

I find that an appallingly sexist and insulting comment. And it is clear that he is indeed being proactive.

Utter rubbish you need to look up the definition of sexism but you comment on my post how the hell is it sexist

audi12

Karsini wrote: »

Telling someone to "man up" is the same as telling someone with clinical depression to "snap out of it". It's useless comment on its own.

You are missing or ignoring the point i am making

audi12

Piliger wrote: »

Nice guys get the vast majority of the best women. That is the simple truth of it. The guys who lose out are the ones that buy into this losers interpretation of their own personal failures.

Are you serious nice guys do not get the nice women i used to be the nice guy when dealing with women it does not work

LiveIsLife

audi12 wrote: »

Are you serious nice guys do not get the nice women i used to be the nice guy when dealing with women it does not work

You're confusing nice guys with guys who are doormats and don't have the confidence to go after what they want

audi12

LiveIsLife wrote: »

You're confusing nice guys with guys who are doormats and don't have the confidence to go after what they want

Maybe I am who knows but I hear women say this crap all the time i want a nice guy if a nice guy approaches them then they have no interest.

Wibbs

audi12 wrote: »

Utter rubbish you need to look up the definition of sexism but you comment on my post how the hell is it sexist

Maybe you need to look up some definitions yourself Ted. Plus why is it nearly always the case when men come along and whinge about "nice guys never get anywhere" do they come across so aggressive/bitter/daft/insulting[delete as applicable]?

audi12

Wibbs wrote: »

Maybe you need to look up some definitions yourself Ted. Plus why is it nearly always the case when men come along and whinge about "nice guys never get anywhere" do they come across so aggressive/bitter/daft/insulting[delete as applicable]?

I am not whinging I dont care one way or another whether nice guys get women or not, my point is women saying they just want to meet a nice guy when most of them dont. just because women say it dont believe it

audi12

Wibbs wrote: »

Maybe you need to look up some definitions yourself Ted. Plus why is it nearly always the case when men come along and whinge about "nice guys never get anywhere" do they come across so aggressive/bitter/daft/insulting[delete as applicable]?

If any gender whinges it is women who complain there are no nice guys left I wonder why

ancapailldorcha

Wibbs wrote: »

Maybe you need to look up some definitions yourself Ted. Plus why is it nearly always the case when men come along and whinge about "nice guys never get anywhere" do they come across so aggressive/bitter/daft/insulting[delete as applicable]?

I think some chaps will use the label "nice guy" in order to justify the entitlement they feel to relationships and so any girl who rejects them is automatically a "bitch" for turning down a "nice guy".

audi12

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I think some chaps will use the label "nice guy" in order to justify the entitlement they feel to relationships and so any girl who rejects them is automatically a "bitch" for turning down a "nice guy".

Maybe in some cases that is true but it is also true women dont know what they want or are just plain telling lies

Daveysil15

audi12 wrote: »

Maybe in some cases that is true but it is also true women dont know what they want or are just plain telling lies

And you know what all women are thinking do you?

P_1

Karsini wrote: »

The thing is, stuff like this seems to fuel the "women love bastards" or "treat them mean, keep them keen" generalisation. I just can't treat someone that way, it makes me feel horrible.

I'm more outgoing than I used to be but still feel rather dull and boring at times; it's like I never found myself and still live by what others tell me to do, to the point that I find it really hard to make decisions on my own. My fear is that it could be something like Aspergers or AvPD which might make it impossible for me to change things. I've suspected the former for a long time.

I recently turned 30 and unfortunately feel like I've been left on the shelf and may remain that way. However I'm starting an 8 week CBT course on Wednesday and I'm really hoping this might do something for me.

Ignore the generalisations mate. Also ignore people telling you to 'man up' or other similar bull. To me it seems that you've identified a potential problem and also a potential solution to it and that's the most 'man up' thing a person can ever do in my eyes. I hope the course works for you and remember that nothing is impossible, it might take hard work but it is by no means impossible.