Is it self defeatist to say that some men are meant to be alone??‏

ancapailldorcha

Thargor wrote: »

Why do people list the gym as a social experience? Cycling and jogging maybe if you join clubs but still the majority are loners there even in a group, the gym recommendation is completely baffling though, who socializes at the gym? Ive been a member of three or four and they're all quite as a church apart from the sounds of the machines and the odd grunt. I wouldnt want anyone coming up to me and interrupting me for a chat anyway.

As a social experience, you're right. However, the results yielded after only a few months' hard work can do wonders for one's confidence. Obviously, this isn't a magic fix for anyone with underlying issues but for your average shy Joe Soap this isn't a bad way to go. Finally, a lot of the guys in the gym are very passionate about working out. If you approach one and ask for help, they'll usually oblige and if you ask them how they go to be the way they are now, they'll normally take that as a huge complement.

Thargor

Yeah I totally get that, fitness is vital, in fact if someone said its the cure for depression I wouldn't disagree. I just think a lot of miserable people here and in Personal Issues are being set up for disappointment being told to go socialize at the gym or in cycling/running groups because they are solo activities 95% of the time imo and just wouldn't want them thinking they were doing something wrong when they join and it turns out that way, talking about exercise is a good icebreaker in other social situations though.

ancapailldorcha

Thargor wrote: »

Yeah I totally get that, fitness is vital, in fact if someone said its the cure for depression I wouldn't disagree. I just think a lot of miserable people here and in Personal Issues are being set up for disappointment being told to go socialize at the gym or in cycling/running groups because they are solo activities 95% of the time imo and just wouldn't want them thinking they were doing something wrong when they join and it turns out that way, talking about exercise is a good icebreaker in other social situations though.

I can relate. My hobbies are videogames, walking, film and travelling most of which are solitary pursuits. There is a lot of misinformation about exercise, a lot of which is perpetrated by gym staff oddly enough. That, combined with the condition of a lot of the lads there can be very off-putting to anyone with a sagging paunch.

quietsailor

Mike747 wrote: »

In my opinion online dating is a waste of time for men. Unless maybe you're ridiculous good looking.

I wouldn't agree with that statement at all Mike747 - OP after being single for 5yrs I plucked up the courage to set up an on-line profile back in Feb,

It's a huge amount of work from a male's perspective, Any email you send cannot be the "hey, how you doin' " s**te that women are already getting everywhere in their lives. You'll have to actually read their profile and then ask questions/start conversations about things that interest them just to get noticed.

I must have written to 40 or 50 women and got answers from 10 and then there was 4 from that 10 that I had a connection/common interests with.

Out of the 4 I've been very lucky to meet one lady & it's going good - my point here isn't how lucky I am but it's not going to be easy and just how muh work you the man will have to put in - any remotely attractive or interesting woman is going to be inundated with emails so if;

• your profile pic is something stupid/badly taken, annoying
• your email subject is childish/hey how are you ****e/non eye catching

they'll just delete/ignore. Even then make sure you've written an interesting email or they'll delete/ignore.

Take the time to fill in the profile, of the 10 women I talked to all said they were sick of getting emails from people that couldn't be bothered to fill in a profile/put up a proper picture(s) or write an interesting email - one that had correct grammar & punctuation.
Sounds silly but from their point of view if you're looking to meet someone special and you've got one chance to impress them; well if you couldn't be bothered to proof read your email - well what other areas are you going to fall down in?

Don't be disheartened by women ignoring your emails, most won't bother replying, a few might be polite enough to say something like "sorry but I'm taken etc etc" but persevere and you'll make connections - they may even not be romantic connections but if you can connect with people it'll get you talking to them so when you do meet a woman you both click then you'll find it easier to converse & you'll come across as interesting.

I'm shy around women I don't know / a woman that might be single and the process of emailing back and forth was a god-send to me, I knew so much about her* before we even met that I was comfortable meeting her*


* = her has a name but it's not my place to be giving it out on the internet

SharpshooterTom

Wibbs wrote: »

Build non romantic relationships and social circle first I reckon. Both sexes. That should help with just hanging out with and socialising with people in general, without the stress of trying to "chat someone up". Trying to do the latter without the former in place is likely doomed to set you back. You're bound to have setbacks, but everyone does, however if you're already kicking off from a place of social fear, feelings of social inadequacy and that sorta thing that's really gonna compound things for you. You may focus on the setbacks and rinse and repeat. Try and talk to someone new everyday. Postman, men and women at work that sorta thing. People are everywhere. Like rats they are. You don't need full on convos just small talk shíte. While small talk can be irritating it is a social shorthand in most peoples repertoire. Not having a faculty for it will challenge you socially.

Thanks Wibbs's that's what I intend to do. I think A has to come before B. I need improve my social life and wider circle before I even contemplate a relationship. I mean if you think about it, would any woman be attracted to a guy who has absolutely no social life? No friends? Who is socially awkward on top of that?

No chance, the relationship wouldn't last very long, so my minimum goal is to put myself out there with as many social activities as possible and increase my social opportunities, that's my minimum goal at least for the next 2 years and improve as much as I can. I'm hopefully heading back to university so I should have plenty of opportunities as long as I'm not avoidant like I was last time. Whether or not I can ever be in a relationship is another thing entirely now, a lot of other factors come into play, my overall sense of attractiveness, whether any women would ever like a 30-35 year old inexperienced guy. Also I'm not the tallest, my weakest physical attribute is probably my height. I've measured myself quite accurately and I think I'm something like 5'7.5, maybe bit over it, fairly close to 5'8 anyway. So I'm kind of shortish, and all the hype about guy's height it doesn't make great reading for someone like me. But we'll see, first things first is to improve my social life & skills as much as possible. I take your point regarding "do you dress like a 14 year old?" I do dress still like I'm a cheap student and at 28 I think its time for a revamp definitely and I shall be looking into that.

Bafucin wrote:

Do you have siblings?

Yes, the sad thing is my younger brother who's 26 is in the same exact situation as me. Infact he's worse. He avoided school completely from the age of 13 onwards, did very few exams. My parents didn't exactly push him or see it as much of a concern (which I think is ridiculous as that's prevented him from having ANY social skills, damaging him, so like I say he's even 'weirder' than me, but he isn't that bothered about it the way I am). My mother especially didn't push him and seems happy enough with him living in there in that house for the rest of his life if he wants according to my mum. :eek:

Thankfully though in some ways he kind of woke up at 20 and decided he needed to do something about his life. He went to college, did a HND, then got into Civil Engineering at Queens and recently graduated with a 2.2, but at 26, he's still never had a job. He's looking for one now (and is applying as we speak), but my parents aren't pushing him (I am), nor are they that bothered about it.

Another aspect is the fact that he drinks regularly on his own (I'm a teetotaller, I don't socialise so never had any reason to drink) and my parents aren't bothered about that either, they keep giving him money to do so. You see this whole angle with regards to my family was pressed on quite heavily by my counsellors and I know my parents have a lot to answer for my upbringing and my situation currently, infact they've encouraged it in many ways.

I used believe because me and my brother were both weird (him possibly even weirder) that we were a result of bad genes, my parents being a bad combination of 'genes' and that during my darkest days of depression encouraged me from a pragmatic view to kill myself. My counsellors would turn around say its not necessarily (or even at all) 'bad genes' but rather upbringing that has lead to me and my brother being the way we are.

Like when I attempted suicide that time, falling into a deep depression at 25, my counsellors asked 'didn't anyone in your family see that coming?'. And honestly they didn't, I used say how sad and lonely I felt throughout my teenage years and early 20s crying sometimes and they would respond 'you're not weird, there's nothing wrong with you' you know, like I've never a gf, have no friends, no social life and that's not a concern in anyway by my mid 20s? I've never brought any friends back ever into my house? Normal?

Look I love my parents and I don't want to overtly criticise them because ultimately I'm 28 now its my fault. I have some strong criticisms of my parents for encouraging us into this situation and I feel they haven't done the greatest job in raising us into adults (no doubt they love us, that I can't criticise) but its up to me, and it has been for a while quite frankly to sort my life. I'm not 18, its not their responsibility anymore. I do feel they've helped kept us in the 'peter pan' lifestyle if you like.

ongarboy wrote:

I would also say continue with the counselling and CBT. You've already said you've seen some success with it so it can work with determination and committment. Best of luck - you deserve it!

I actually stopped counselling last year. Part of the reason was we'd kinda covered the course of what needed to be said and what needed to be done, the problem is I finished my college term in june after a crapload of exams and had nothing set up (no job, few activities) and so they didn't see the point in continuing counselling whilst me not having nothing to practise the 'schematherapy' and techniques out on. However I promised I would in time put those into practise and that's what I did in college throughout last year, like I said I probably had my best social experiences ever since I've been an adult. I want to push on from that now and have a more fulfilling life.

I could go back to counselling but I think I've got enough from it in the mean time and its up to me ultimately change my situation and I see if I can ride the bike without any stabilisers so to speak.

icecold1066

If you are defeatist then yes you will be alone.

If you have a lust for life, a positive outlook, have interests and hobbies and work hard and you actively and energetically seek out friendships and female company then you won't be.

Being glum and sad looking and walking around with the head down will make people run from you when they see you coming.

Daveysil15

Thargor wrote: »

Why do people list the gym as a social experience? Cycling and jogging maybe if you join clubs but still the majority are loners there even in a group, the gym recommendation is completely baffling though, who socializes at the gym? Ive been a member of three or four and they're all quite as a church apart from the sounds of the machines and the odd grunt. I wouldnt want anyone coming up to me and interrupting me for a chat anyway.

I agree. I go to the gym to train. I have the "train hard or go home" attitude.

quietsailor wrote: »

I wouldn't agree with that statement at all Mike747 - OP after being single for 5yrs I plucked up the courage to set up an on-line profile back in Feb,

It's a huge amount of work from a male's perspective, Any email you send cannot be the "hey, how you doin' " s**te that women are already getting everywhere in their lives. You'll have to actually read their profile and then ask questions/start conversations about things that interest them just to get noticed.

I must have written to 40 or 50 women and got answers from 10 and then there was 4 from that 10 that I had a connection/common interests with.


Out of the 4 I've been very lucky to meet one lady & it's going good - my point here isn't how lucky I am but it's not going to be easy and just how muh work you the man will have to put in - any remotely attractive or interesting woman is going to be inundated with emails so if;

• your profile pic is something stupid/badly taken, annoying
• your email subject is childish/hey how are you ****e/non eye catching

they'll just delete/ignore. Even then make sure you've written an interesting email or they'll delete/ignore.

Take the time to fill in the profile, of the 10 women I talked to all said they were sick of getting emails from people that couldn't be bothered to fill in a profile/put up a proper picture(s) or write an interesting email - one that had correct grammar & punctuation.
Sounds silly but from their point of view if you're looking to meet someone special and you've got one chance to impress them; well if you couldn't be bothered to proof read your email - well what other areas are you going to fall down in?

Don't be disheartened by women ignoring your emails, most won't bother replying, a few might be polite enough to say something like "sorry but I'm taken etc etc" but persevere and you'll make connections - they may even not be romantic connections but if you can connect with people it'll get you talking to them so when you do meet a woman you both click then you'll find it easier to converse & you'll come across as interesting.

I'm shy around women I don't know / a woman that might be single and the process of emailing back and forth was a god-send to me, I knew so much about her* before we even met that I was comfortable meeting her*


* = her has a name but it's not my place to be giving it out on the internet

This is sound advice, and you're right, as a guy you have to put in a lot of effort. As I said before, you have to be patient with it.

SharpshooterTom

Can I ask a question guys, is dating generally speaking easier for women than it is for men? Or is that just a stereotype?

I take its meant to be easier for women in online dating but for dating just generally is it?

I can't figure out why that would be if that is the case. I mean in terms of the population they're in equal numbers pretty much, in fact according to the 2011 census for men vs woman in the age group 25-44 was 717,055 and 733,085 respectively (so actually slightly more women). Regardless its pretty much 50:50, I can't understand why so many men say dating's far harder for men than it is women, its too competitive, women have it easy etc. There's got to be as many single women as there are men, but many say being a single man is much more common!

Unless there are a lot of polygamists about :P I can't figure mathematically why that would be. Maybe somebody could give me an explanation why is supposedly harder?

Daveysil15

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

Can I ask a question guys, is dating generally speaking easier for women than it is for men? Or is that just a stereotype?

I take its meant to be easier for women in online dating but for dating just generally is it?

I can't figure out why that would be if that is the case. I mean in terms of the population they're in equal numbers pretty much, in fact according to the 2011 census for men vs woman in the age group 25-44 was 717,055 and 733,085 respectively (so actually slightly more women). Regardless its pretty much 50:50, I can't understand why so many men say dating's far harder for men than it is women, its too competitive, women have it easy etc. There's got to be as many single women as there are men, but many say being a single man is much more common!

Unless there are a lot of polygamists about :P I can't figure mathematically why that would be. Maybe somebody could give me an explanation why is supposedly harder?

90% of the women are dating 10% of the men. Simples.

No well obviously its the men who generally do the approaching. Even shy girls will get approached if they're anywhere daycent looking. Plus with online dating the men far outnumber the women.

pwurple

It's roughly equal I'd say. I know as many girls who have similar attitudes (why would someone want to go out with me) as I do guys.

It is all about attitude. I know some women who are 20+ stone who have never had a problem getting on with guys, getting married, having children,etc. and I know some women who are perfectly nice girls, normal looking, but also crippled with negativity. "No-one would want me", yadda yadda. It's not gender specific at all.

I do see men take it much much further though, into every aspect of life. Why would anyone give me a promotion, why would anyone hire me, why would anyone look at me.

Wibbs

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

Can I ask a question guys, is dating generally speaking easier for women than it is for men? Or is that just a stereotype?

I think it depends on a few factors T. As Daveysil15 said men generally do the approaching so being socially reticent is much less an issue for women and even though the ladies make up half the population most men seem to think women are rare in some ways. This makes it much more a sellers market in favour of women as far as dating goes.

However and it's a big however, men are more visually biased as a general rule and I have found that the more options a man has the more visually biased he tends to be. So while average or above average women have it much easier, those women who may be outside the cultural "ideal" have it harder. Even so they will still get approached sooner or later. A woman can get away with being socially reticent/"immature" a lot easier than a man can for a start. I've seen men get in line to get with women who were good looking but obviously "odd", but the looks won out. I've seen that far less with women(which IMH is more logical). They're more likely to spot and avoid those men who they and the group see as "odd". Plus a woman's age has a much bigger influence on her chances. A 25 year old woman has many more options than the same woman at 35 and a magnitude more than the same woman at 45. Whereas in men you could nearly reverse that graph.

It's just my opinion I grant you, but IMHO men overall have it easier, IF they realise it. As a man you have more attraction options and most of all you have more options to increase your dating "value". A man who is the "life and soul" has more options than a woman who is. A man who is worth a few bob adds more value than a woman who is. A man's age is a lot less of an issue. An average 35 year old guy, who is content and sorted in his life and is genuinely open to a relationship has way more options than if he was a 35 year old woman in the same position. Ask a 35 year old woman and it's likely she'll tell you that or something similar. A well sorted OK looking 40 year old man has way more options than a well sorted 40 year old woman as a general rule.

I've experienced that in my own life. On looks I have certainly gotten above my paygrade. I mean that objectively too. You hear some men say "oh she's outa my league", but in my experience in the majority of cases objective observers wouldn't agree. How did I do it in those examples? Basically I was offering more fun and emotional stability and human connection than what any "competitors" were offering at the time. Most of all I Didn't Give A Feck(tm). Pedestals are for statues, not another human being. If I met a woman who was good looking I didn't make that one aspect of her mean much. My willie might have, but the rest of me didn't and if she gave off even the sniff of being a pain in the arse then walk away. There are billions of women in the world and there are a lot more who aren't a pain in the arse regardless of how they look. Why settle for a pain who has a pretty face/bum/legs/whatever? You will get tired of looking at that. Personality is everything.

TL;DR? A stable, well adjusted, socially and emotionally aware and open guy at 35 has a lot more choices than he may think.

I take its meant to be easier for women in online dating but for dating just generally is it?

Online dating because it's more visually driven kinda evens out the wider world stuff. As I said on another thread if a bloke wants to get a glimpse of being judged visually(looks, height, weight) in a way that can echo many women's experiences in real life, then join up to online dating and see and feel it for yourself.

paddy1990

lets get real here

if we bump this thread in 1 year, many of the guys currently struggling will still be struggling.

If we look at the behaviour of very attractive women, we can see that they go for the same type of guy. Thus you get lots of women going for a small percentage of guys. Those guys live in abundance, meanwhile the guys at the lower end are fighting for scraps. You'll see a lot of these guys on online dating sites looking for any scraps they can get. If you actually have to approach women, then you are already in the lower rung and will struggle.

The fact of the matter is, the dating market is a buyers market for women. The ones who dispute this, are just not attractive enough to get the guys they want. No good looking girl ever struggles to get a guy.

This video should be watched and studied by every man.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krsNcFQwsbc

paddy1990

Wibbs wrote: »

I think it depends on a few factors T. As Daveysil15 said men generally do the approaching so being socially reticent is much less an issue for women and even though the ladies make up half the population most men seem to think women are rare in some ways. This makes it much more a sellers market in favour of women as far as dating goes.

However and it's a big however, men are more visually biased as a general rule and I have found that the more options a man has the more visually biased he tends to be. So while average or above average women have it much easier, those women who may be outside the cultural "ideal" have it harder. Even so they will still get approached sooner or later. A woman can get away with being socially reticent/"immature" a lot easier than a man can for a start. I've seen men get in line to get with women who were good looking but obviously "odd", but the looks won out. I've seen that far less with women(which IMH is more logical). They're more likely to spot and avoid those men who they and the group see as "odd". Plus a woman's age has a much bigger influence on her chances. A 25 year old woman has many more options than the same woman at 35 and a magnitude more than the same woman at 45. Whereas in men you could nearly reverse that graph.

It's just my opinion I grant you, but IMHO men overall have it easier, IF they realise it. As a man you have more attraction options and most of all you have more options to increase your dating "value". A man who is the "life and soul" has more options than a woman who is. A man who is worth a few bob adds more value than a woman who is. A man's age is a lot less of an issue. An average 35 year old guy, who is content and sorted in his life and is genuinely open to a relationship has way more options than if he was a 35 year old woman in the same position. Ask a 35 year old woman and it's likely she'll tell you that or something similar. A well sorted OK looking 40 year old man has way more options than a well sorted 40 year old woman as a general rule.

I've experienced that in my own life. On looks I have certainly gotten above my paygrade. I mean that objectively too. You hear some men say "oh she's outa my league", but in my experience in the majority of cases objective observers wouldn't agree. How did I do it in those examples? Basically I was offering more fun and emotional stability and human connection than what any "competitors" were offering at the time. Most of all I Didn't Give A Feck(tm). Pedestals are for statues, not another human being. If I met a woman who was good looking I didn't make that one aspect of her mean much. My willie might have, but the rest of me didn't and if she gave off even the sniff of being a pain in the arse then walk away. There are billions of women in the world and there are a lot more who aren't a pain in the arse regardless of how they look. Why settle for a pain who has a pretty face/bum/legs/whatever? You will get tired of looking at that. Personality is everything.

TL;DR? A stable, well adjusted, socially and emotionally aware and open guy at 35 has a lot more choices than he may think.

Online dating because it's more visually driven kinda evens out the wider world stuff. As I said on another thread if a bloke wants to get a glimpse of being judged visually(looks, height, weight) in a way that can echo many women's experiences in real life, then join up to online dating and see and feel it for yourself.

Strongly disagree with the bulk of your post.

Women care about looks just as much as men generally. Women are just as shallow as men and to believe differently is just ridiculous. Look around and you'll see A LOT of men dating down. I was in town earlier and the amount of in shape guys with chubby girls was amazing.

Age is a huge factor for men than it is for women. Try picking up a 20 year old girl if you're 35. Meanwhile set up a dating profile with an average 35 year old womans pictures online and see how many 20 year old guys she can get (hint - alot)

Heres another one, set up a dating profile online of a girl in a WHEELCHAIR and see how many guys are still willing to date her and then do the same for a man in a wheelchair.

I have done all of these experiments. Social media has blown up the egos of your average woman. It's hard not to think you are hot stuff when you're getting 50+ likes per photo and having guys chase you every day. All attractive women have to do these days is take out their smartphones for a nice ego/validation boost.

The OP wouldn't be in his position if he looked like a male model. As it is now, he has little chance. He is too far behind. I'm not saying it's completely hopeless but he needs to get real and then start putting the work in, fairly sharpish.

pwurple

Paddy1990, it really is all about attitude. Bitterness is unattractive.

It also helps immensely if you view women as people rather than commodities.

Export

paddy1990 wrote: »

Strongly disagree with the bulk of your post.

Women care about looks just as much as men generally. Women are just as shallow as men and to believe differently is just ridiculous. Look around and you'll see A LOT of men dating down. I was in town earlier and the amount of in shape guys with chubby girls was amazing.

Age is a huge factor for men than it is for women. Try picking up a 20 year old girl if you're 35. Meanwhile set up a dating profile with an average 35 year old womans pictures online and see how many 20 year old guys she can get (hint - alot)

Heres another one, set up a dating profile online of a girl in a WHEELCHAIR and see how many guys are still willing to date her and then do the same for a man in a wheelchair.

I have done all of these experiments. Social media has blown up the egos of your average woman. It's hard not to think you are hot stuff when you're getting 50+ likes per photo and having guys chase you every day. All attractive women have to do these days is take out their smartphones for a nice ego/validation boost.

The OP wouldn't be in his position if he looked like a male model. As it is now, he has little chance. He is too far behind. I'm not saying it's completely hopeless but he needs to get real and then start putting the work in, fairly sharpish.

Be the jaysis!

diveout

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

Can I ask a question guys, is dating generally speaking easier for women than it is for men? Or is that just a stereotype?

I take its meant to be easier for women in online dating but for dating just generally is it?

I can't figure out why that would be if that is the case. I mean in terms of the population they're in equal numbers pretty much, in fact according to the 2011 census for men vs woman in the age group 25-44 was 717,055 and 733,085 respectively (so actually slightly more women). Regardless its pretty much 50:50, I can't understand why so many men say dating's far harder for men than it is women, its too competitive, women have it easy etc. There's got to be as many single women as there are men, but many say being a single man is much more common!

Unless there are a lot of polygamists about :P I can't figure mathematically why that would be. Maybe somebody could give me an explanation why is supposedly harder?

Female here. I think you need to stop thinking in general big abstractions about men and women, you are just enforcing the whole otherness of the opposite sex. Everyone is vulnerable, everyone cocks it up, everyone has masks. And alot of insecurties about what other people think of you are pure fantasy because rationally speaking you cannot have any idea of what people think of you. It's all your imagination.

Dating takes risks for both you and the other person. That is just how it is. All this advise about joining social groups.... that is not for everyone. If you are introverted, that will absolute you exhaust you and you will have nothing to give.

A lot of it is about being comfortable in your own skin, because then the other person can be comfortable. Anxiety is the most contagious feeling there is, if you bring that into a room, it will spread and then people, men or women don't like to be around that.

People wont remember anything about you except how you made them feel. If you make them feel good they will want more time with you.

Wibbs

paddy1990 wrote: »

Women care about looks just as much as men generally.

Yep they do indeed(The online dating world massively exaggerates this). When all other factors are taken out of the equation. Since the video you posted dealt with extremes let's take one. Donald Trump has a head like melon with a wig nailed on and he's with an ex model(and he's gone through models like Vogue). There are plenty of examples of that kinda thing at far less extreme everyday levels too. In general looks in a woman as a factor is a higher for men. If in the morning you invented the next Twitter your dating options would go through the roof, if a woman did it would affect her dating options a lot less.

Look around and you'll see A LOT of men dating down. I was in town earlier and the amount of in shape guys with chubby girls was amazing.

Yet by your reckoning these good looking men should be with better looking women? Why aren't they? Maybe they like rounder women(which seems to be a cultural thing here anyway)? Maybe they're boring, average not a lot going on type men and their looks are their main factor? Maybe, just maybe they happened to click, mad I know. If you walk around any big city you will also see men "dating up". How are they doing it?

Age is a huge factor for men than it is for women. Try picking up a 20 year old girl if you're 35.

Have done and was in a longtermer with a 26 year old at 40. My smallest age gap in anything like a longtermer was 8 years. Looks wise I'm decidedly average. 5'10, shortsighted, a butchers apron has more meat on it and nothing to write home about in general, certainly not photogenic. I wouldn't look or act my age, but that's about it and I've "dated up" pretty much all my adult life. I know four men off the top of my head(a couple on Boards) running similar enough age gaps(inc a marriage) and the women in question are all attractive women in looks and sound to boot and if the guys are reading this they wouldn't mind me saying none of them look like George Clooney, nor have his money.

Meanwhile set up a dating profile with an average 35 year old womans pictures online and see how many 20 year old guys she can get (hint - alot)

Heres another one, set up a dating profile online of a girl in a WHEELCHAIR and see how many guys are still willing to date her and then do the same for a man in a wheelchair.

As I've said online dating is a different landscape. It massively exaggerates looks as a factor, both in men and women, but skews it in favour of women much more. There are more men doing online dating for a start so more competition. I'm quite certain that if my dating experience had been restricted to online I'd have been left sucking my thumb the last twenty years, getting more rejected and dejected by the day.

All attractive women have to do these days is take out their smartphones for a nice ego/validation boost.

[emphasis mine]. Sure attractive women who look good in photos will get much more attention from a gender biased online dating environment. However if you look at all profiles of women the less photogenic will get a lot less attention. Check out any online dating forum and read the women's replies. There are a lot of ladies getting little enough attention and what attention they do get is from weirdoes, or guys just looking for the ride. It depends entirely on one's worldview.

The OP wouldn't be in his position if he looked like a male model.

Really? The best looking man I've personally known got attention alright, but most of it wasn't great and as you might put it with one exception he "dated down" all his life.

As it is now, he has little chance. He is too far behind.

A load o me bollocks. The chap is still in his 20's FFS. I didn't get really going until I passed thirty. He's clearly very bright, he's got his career on the right track, by his own account(and I'd believe him) he's not that hard on the eye and contrary to what he seems to believe he's not a midget either. With a little effort on his part - and he's already laid the heavy groundwork - he'll begin to feel more himself in social situations and any relationship(s) will be more his choice than "luck". I'll lay a bet here now that in 5 years time he'll be in a very different position and a more content one.

diveout wrote:

People wont remember anything about you except how you made them feel. If you make them feel good they will want more time with you.

That right there is pure gold.

Wibbs

diveout wrote: »

People wont remember anything about you except how you made them feel. If you make them feel good they will want more time with you.

Had to quote this again. Nail on the head.

paddy1990

LOL at completely disregarding the video.

Of course if I gained millions overnight I could have the type of women Donald Trump gets.

The facts are that looks, money and status matter immensely and anyone who says otherwise is simply displaying a lack of knowledge or awareness. Self delusion is healthy and keeps people going so its understandable.

You don't see the Rosanna Davisons or Georgia Salpas with nerds. These types of HOT girls (fame or no fame) are really with a specific type of guy that we can all visualize.

The remainder of men are really fighting for average women im afraid. Online dating is a very good benchmark to see how things work.

I've got some great friends who are really nice guys but they are in the OPs position due to small height/ugliness. Nothing they can do really. I have explained to them that it's not their fault and not to start thinking something is wrong with THEM, which is what people like you and others like to propagate. In fact, my mates are hilarious guys and very cool. They are just short and butt ugly and hence get treated like garbage when they try to chat up women. What they need to do is get realistic about their level and go for girls that are ugly/fat themselves, and thankfully that is what they are doing. Hopefully they will get a bit of luck.

On the flip side I can be an absolute c*nt to girls and still have them throw themselves at me. All because I am very good looking. It's quite sad really. Genetic determination I believe it's called.

I don't even blame women for doing what comes naturally.

And I'll take any bet that the OP is in the same situation in 5 years.

ancapailldorcha

I still can't get my head around the idea that men in their 30s who lack serious flaws have it easier than women. A mate of mine is in his early 30s and he's said that things have gotten a lot easier for him in the last few years.

I don't know why but I fail to see the attraction behind people like Georgia Salpa, Cheryl Cole, etc.. I just prefer the idea of dating someone for a while who has interests, hobbies and aspirations as opposed to some model just for bragging rights.

Mike747

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I still can't get my head around the idea that men in their 30s who lack serious flaws have it easier than women. A mate of mine is in his early 30s and he's said that things have gotten a lot easier for him in the last few years.

I don't know why but I fail to see the attraction behind people like Georgia Salpa, Cheryl Cole, etc.. I just prefer the idea of dating someone for a while who has interests, hobbies and aspirations as opposed to some model just for bragging rights.

A friend of mine is in his early 40s and regularly gets girls half his age. He's told me many young girls like older men. Makes sense. Many male sex symbols are older whereas there are no older female sex symbols. My opinion is women peak when they're about 23 and then its all downhill. Men on the other hand only start to come into their prime in their late twenties.

paddy1990

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I still can't get my head around the idea that men in their 30s who lack serious flaws have it easier than women. A mate of mine is in his early 30s and he's said that things have gotten a lot easier for him in the last few years.

I don't know why but I fail to see the attraction behind people like Georgia Salpa, Cheryl Cole, etc.. I just prefer the idea of dating someone for a while who has interests, hobbies and aspirations as opposed to some model just for bragging rights.

Men in their 30s having it easier is a myth. You really have to take EVERYTHING said by people (including myself) on this subject with a grain of salt as we are only speaking from our own experiences and what we have seen/heard from others. People do tend to be very delusional on this subject though. Ask the average 20 year old college student if she wants a 35 year old bloke and she'll laugh, meanwhile you'll get lots of guys with thousands of posts on internet forums who say differently. So you have to be selective in who you believe.

As for really attractive women, well they are in fact people as well and are actually really nice people too. It also helps that they are attractive of course. They are just as shallow as men though, and you will need a certain level of looks, money and status (LMS) in order to be seen as a viable sexual option by them.

ancapailldorcha

Mike747 wrote: »

A friend of mine is in his early 40s and regularly gets girls half his age. He's told me many young girls like older men. Makes sense. Many male sex symbols are older whereas there are no older female sex symbols. My opinion is women peak when they're about 23 and then its all downhill. Men on the other hand only start to come into their prime in their late twenties.

It must be to do with maturity then. The main reason why women in their mid-thirties and beyond have fewer options is down to the ability to have children would be my guess.

paddy1990 wrote: »

Men in their 30s having it easier is a myth. You really have to take EVERYTHING said by people (including myself) on this subject with a grain of salt as we are only speaking from our own experiences and what we have seen/heard from others. People do tend to be very delusional on this subject though. Ask the average 20 year old college student if she wants a 35 year old bloke and she'll laugh, meanwhile you'll get lots of guys with thousands of posts on internet forums who say differently. So you have to be selective in who you believe.

As for really attractive women, well they are in fact people as well and are actually really nice people too. It also helps that they are attractive of course. They are just as shallow as men though, and you will need a certain level of looks, money and status (LMS) in order to be seen as a viable sexual option by them.

There are lot of very attractive women paired with "lesser" men. There was a thread about that very subject somewhere on Boards at one stage. You'd probably be right regarding very casual relationships or one night stands but for more long term relationships then there's a lot more than looks involved. Your friends' problems probably stem from low self-esteem and confidence as opposed to their looks. Alternatively, if they're chancing their arm in nightclubs then they've picked the second most superficial place to attract women. I'd say online dating is the worst but that's just my opinion.

paddy1990

Mike747 wrote: »

A friend of mine is in his early 40s and regularly gets girls half his age. He's told me many young girls like older men. Makes sense. Many male sex symbols are older whereas there are no older female sex symbols. My opinion is women peak when they're about 23 and then its all downhill. Men on the other hand only start to come into their prime in their late twenties.

He's probably the kind of guy who never had a problem getting women thoughout his teens and 20s and into his 30s. It's a different ballgame for a virgin in his 30s. The virgin is so far behind that its almost insurmountable I'm afraid. Any potential partner will have had about 15 years of sex/relationships more than him.

The guys in their early 40s doing well have some kind of niche appeal to a certain demographic of young girls. This is actually the best way to go. One of the biggest ladies men I know is in his 40s - he manages a well known nightclub in the City Centre.

ancapailldorcha

paddy1990 wrote: »

The guys in their early 40s doing well have some kind of niche appeal to a certain demographic of young girls. This is actually the best way to go. One of the biggest ladies men I know is in his 40s - he manages a well known nightclub in the City Centre.

Didn't you just saw above that a 35 year old would have no chance attracting a girl of 20?

paddy1990

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

There are lot of very attractive women paired with "lesser" men. There was a thread about that very subject somewhere on Boards at one stage. You'd probably be right regarding very casual relationships or one night stands but for more long term relationships then there's a lot more than looks involved. Your friends' problems probably stem from low self-esteem and confidence as opposed to their looks. Alternatively, if they're chancing their arm in nightclubs then they've picked the second most superficial place to attract women. I'd say online dating is the worst but that's just my opinion.

There are just as many if not more men paired with "lesser" women. The women dating down myth is just hilarious.

Instead what happens is that women when they hit their late 20s/early 30s start getting hit with their bio clock and the prospect of the poindexter with the excellent career is now a decent prospect. They have "had their fun" and are really to settle down. This is where some guys can possibly date up if they are seen as good providers. However, in the vast majority of cases these guys are just getting women on their level or below. Why would a woman date down when she doesn't have to? That would be a bit stupid and would go against her biological wiring.

Certainly when women are in their prime they are not looking at poindexter as a viable option, no matter what his personality is like. Well, I'm talking about attractive women here..

paddy1990

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Didn't you just saw above that a 35 year old would have no chance attracting a girl of 20?

Please try to understand that we have to generalize here. Exceptions prove the rule.

Mike747

paddy1990 wrote: »

He's probably the kind of guy who never had a problem getting women thoughout his teens and 20s and into his 30s. It's a different ballgame for a virgin in his 30s. The virgin is so far behind that its almost insurmountable I'm afraid. Any potential partner will have had about 15 years of sex/relationships more than him.

The guys in their early 40s doing well have some kind of niche appeal to a certain demographic of young girls. This is actually the best way to go. One of the biggest ladies men I know is in his 40s - he manages a well known nightclub in the City Centre.

I've only known him for year so I can't comment on his past. Chances are he didn't. His major strength is that he is utterly fearless when it comes to women and is supremely confident. That can all be learned though. Even a shy virgin can get there if works hard, is patient and learns that rejection is no big deal

I believe men get better looking as they age, they become more rugged and handsome (provided they don't let themselves become fat) Young girls lust after George Cloony and Brad Pitt, even Harrison ford. Of course there are girls who only want prepish pretty boy types. But ultimately I think the older man has more going for him.

I agree about demographics. It's helpful to figure out the type of girl you attract.

paleoperson

What's "defeatist" about it? You could equally say it's self-victoryist to claim it. Romantic human bonds are a great tragedy as much as they are a success.

paddy1990

Mike747 wrote: »

I've only known him for year so I can't comment on his past. Chances are he didn't. His major strength is that he is utterly fearless when it comes to women and is supremely confident. That can all be learned though. Even a shy virgin can get there if works hard, is patient and learns that rejection is no big deal

I believe men get better looking as they age, they become more rugged and handsome (provided they don't let themselves become fat) Young girls lust after George Cloony and Brad Pitt, even Harrison ford. Of course there are girls who only want prepish pretty boy types. But ultimately I think the older man has more going for him.

I agree about demographics. It's helpful to figure out the type of girl you attract.

Clooney and Pitt are outragous outliers and have had a few procedures done. The average 40 year old man looks terrible in comparison. Men do not get more physically attractive as they age, in general. In fact, a lot of avenues close up. The 40 year old guy cannot get girls in their late teens/early 20s as easily as a guy in his 20s can. In order to do well as a 40+ year old man, you'd need significant amounts of money or status - my friend as the nightclub manager is a perfect example.

Women generally agree that peak male attractiveness is from 20-30

http://www.therulesrevisited.com/2012/12/male-age-and-attractiveness.html

Here are some comments by women on age. I think these would be fairly common views held by most women.

wrote:

If I were to date a man in his early 20s, I would NOT mind about his finacial status.Even if he is in student loans it's fine too.

However, if I were to date a man a lot more older than I am, and if a man has passed 35 and still is struggling finacially and poor, I would definitely care, unless he can give out convicible reasons on how he ended up there.

wrote:

Yes, whoa. Sorry but that is laughable. Men are not the most attractive at 40. Even biologically speaking, sperm starts going bad at 35, resulting in significantly greater chances of having children born with mental illnesses, and disabilities, and regardless of the age of the female they have mated with. Also, psychologically, the 40 year old men I know that are still single are very lost. Peak physical attractiveness is around 21-30, and 29-35 is the highest peak for sum attractiveness. I'm still in my prime, and I would not date a man who is 40 and up. And although when I was 21, I did go on a date with someone who was 40, I was never considering them seriously.

wrote:

Have to agree with what everyone else has said. Men are in the 'peak' in terms of attractiveness from around 28-35. I'm 25 and wouldn't go near a 40 year old and nor would any of my friends. Sure, these relationships with big age gaps happen, but they are hardly the norm. Older men can't really compete with younger men in terms of attractiveness.

Mike747

paddy1990 wrote: »

Clooney and Pitt are outragous outliers and have had a few procedures done. The average 40 year old man looks terrible in comparison. Men do not get more physically attractive as they age, in general. In fact, a lot of avenues close up. The 40 year old guy cannot get girls in their late teens/early 20s as easily as a guy in his 20s can. In order to do well as a 40+ year old man, you'd need significant amounts of money or status - my friend as the nightclub manager is a perfect example.

Women generally agree that peak male attractiveness is from 20-30

http://www.therulesrevisited.com/2012/12/male-age-and-attractiveness.html

Here are some comments by women on age. I think these would be fairly common views held by most women.

And yet my friend has no money or status and is a serious player. Its a funny world.

SharpshooterTom

paddy1990 wrote: »

The virgin is so far behind that its almost insurmountable I'm afraid. Any potential partner will have had about 15 years of sex/relationships more than him.

So I should just give up then?

Mike747

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

So I should just give up then?

Hell no. You just have to take a hard look at what needs improving and get down to it. Don't worry about 'am I good looking enough for her' or anything like that. There are millions of women out there, you've got to learn how to attract them and get out there.

paddy1990

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

So I should just give up then?

You'll have to be completely honest with any partner about your lack of experience.

I'd say its definitely possible for you to succeed but not the way you are being advised here.

paleoperson

Also sperm do not "start going bad at 35" and noone serious has ever claimed that, it's something you invented to suit yourself.

There is some cross-sectional read: unreliable research claiming that after about 45, sperm SLIGHTLY increases risk of certain diseases such as autism, ADHD and others... in other words all the "soft" ones that are diagnosed not on physical things you can see or clear facts. There are all sorts of confounding factors though involved in this, epidemiological studies like this have suffered serious setbacks from contradictory evidence and are considered unreliable. This is in part to bolster the theory of mutations by sperm, when nothing like that has ever been shown. There is no good evidence that sperm at 90 is any better or worse than sperm at 25.

pwurple

Pay no heed to the garbage about being a virgin being some kind of hindrance. Why people think that women want some sort of slutty guy that has slept with the whole town is beyond me. I have never been attracted to that kind of guy. It's an absolute turn-off.

Take the advice from people who are in actual relationships, rather than those who faff about eternally on online dating websites looking at women like they are a bag of skin and bones instead of a thinking breathing person.

You don't need to be an extrovert.
You don't need to be stunning.
You don't need to be rich.

You do need to be comfortable in your own skin, and nice to be around. It is very difficult to be comfortable in your own skin if you are depressed or negative.

ancapailldorcha

pwurple wrote: »

Why people think that women want some sort of slutty guy that has slept with the whole town is beyond me.

+1

It's down to a fear of embarrassing oneself combined with a lack of knowledge save for the base mechanics. It's not terribly dissimilar to the proverbial dog chasing a car.

pwurple

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

+1

It's down to a fear of embarrassing oneself combined with a lack of knowledge save for the base mechanics. It's not terribly dissimilar to the proverbial dog chasing a car.

I know, It's ridiculous. The whole joy of going out with someone is learning what each person enjoys. Who the heck wants some sort of pony going through a repertoire of tricks that some other girl liked.

ancapailldorcha

pwurple wrote: »

I know, It's ridiculous. The whole joy of going out with someone is learning what each person enjoys. Who the heck wants some sort of pony going through a repertoire of tricks that some other girl liked.

Thing is, you become convinced that you'll get laughed at once you disclose it. You're speaking perfect sense of course.

Wibbs

paddy1990 wrote: »

LOL at completely disregarding the video.

I didn't. Indeed I agree with the author(with the most boring voice ever) that most of the "self help" industry is a crock. It's one reason I can't stand the pickup artist BS. It gives false hope wrapped up in BS in exchange for money.

The remainder of men are really fighting for average women im afraid. Online dating is a very good benchmark to see how things work.

I would disagree. Online dating by it's very nature is a skewed environment. You could hardly build a better environment where looks was positively selected for if you tried.

I've got some great friends who are really nice guys but they are in the OPs position due to small height/ugliness. Nothing they can do really. I have explained to them that it's not their fault and not to start thinking something is wrong with THEM, which is what people like you and others like to propagate. In fact, my mates are hilarious guys and very cool. They are just short and butt ugly and hence get treated like garbage when they try to chat up women. What they need to do is get realistic about their level and go for girls that are ugly/fat themselves, and thankfully that is what they are doing. Hopefully they will get a bit of luck.

On the flip side I can be an absolute c*nt to girls and still have them throw themselves at me. All because I am very good looking. It's quite sad really. Genetic determination I believe it's called.

M'kay. Why does all this read more like someone who had social difficulties, bought into the whole PUA bullshít and realised it was bullshít, sought out answers(like the linked video) and is bitter because of it. You seem to be more empathic with the "short and butt ugly" men than the "very good looking". If you were that good looking and it all came so easy to you why would you even notice anything different? A person's worldview is almost always subjective, based on their subjective experience. It's far more likely a very good looking man who never had trouble getting women would assume that it was equally easy for other men. Like skinny people telling fat people "well just eat less, it's easy". A very good looking guy would barely register another worldview and he wouldn't be nearly as snarky about it, because he's have no need to feel any bitterness as he has already won the life lotto. If your username is reflective of your age then I'd make that a triple barman.

meanwhile you'll get lots of guys with thousands of posts on internet forums who say differently. So you have to be selective in who you believe.

Well all I can say is that there would be enough longer term members who know me in "real life" and have seen me in social situations and I'd have zero issue with them either supporting what I've said or calling me a bullshítter.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I still can't get my head around the idea that men in their 30s who lack serious flaws have it easier than women. A mate of mine is in his early 30s and he's said that things have gotten a lot easier for him in the last few years.

It does depend on the 30+ year old. I would agree with paddy1990 there. Some male faces get better with age, takes the immature youth bit away. If the same guy has gotten fat and middle aged before his time his options are getting much more limited, though he will still have more options with the women looking to "settle down", so long as he's relatively settled in his life/career.

paleoperson wrote:

Also sperm do not "start going bad at 35" and noone serious has ever claimed that, it's something you invented to suit yourself.

Actually there was a study that came out about a year ago that suggested male potency dropped at nearly the same speed as female. Problem was the study was highly flawed. They were conflating the men's potency with their partners. The majority of the men were in relationships and having kids with women around their own age. However when they looked at men who were in relationships with younger women their potency matched theirs and when men were in relationships with older women again that matching held up. Basically what the study was mapping was the fertility of the men's partners, not the men. So long as the men remained healthy and fit(big caveat of course) their fertility and chances of any offspring having genetic damage wasn't much different at 50 than it was at 25. It was the fertility age of the woman that counted.

pwurple wrote:

You don't need to be an extrovert.

Though I'd agree with your other points, I'd disagree here P. OK someone doesn't need to be the life and soul, but introverts have a much harder time of it, especially introverted men. A guy could have the most amazing life/soul/whatever, but if he doesn't let people know how can they find out? How can the same guy meet women if he doesn't engage with them?

ThomasFlynn wrote:

So I should just give up then?

Christ NO TF. Are you looking for some tarted up dollybird of 22 who props up bars and posts up duckfaces on ArseBook looking for validation? No, you're not. You're looking for women who will be similar to you in outlook, intelligence, emotional stability(a fooking biggie Ted). They're out there and there's a lot of them too.

Wibbs

pwurple wrote: »

Pay no heed to the garbage about being a virgin being some kind of hindrance. Why people think that women want some sort of slutty guy that has slept with the whole town is beyond me. I have never been attracted to that kind of guy. It's an absolute turn-off.

I would say and again just my humble, that the "town bike" man is going to get more one night/fling type action, but may have difficulty with getting into a long term relationship. Like the opposite where the "town bike" woman gets plenty of attention but fewer will want her as an official girlfriend. Though because of the double standard he will still be ahead of her.

paleoperson

It's important to note that fertility and possibility of genetic defects aren't directly related in males. Male fertility does tend to go down for various reasons surrounding the sperm, but only mutations change the DNA of the sperm and may be passed to the new child.

diveout

Wibbs wrote: »

I would say and again just my humble, that the "town bike" man is going to get more one night/fling type action, but may have difficulty with getting into a long term relationship. Like the opposite where the "town bike" woman gets plenty of attention but fewer will want her as an official girlfriend. Though because of the double standard he will still be ahead of her.

Hmnnnn depends....there is a fine line between experienced and sleazy....

But I think this whole debate is a distraction. Yes some things might be easier for others, dating too, but that doesn't mean you can't do it too. It just means you have to go about it a different way, or you have to be more patient, or try harder, or find other ways. It actually doesn't matter whether or not something is easier for other people if it's something you yourself would like to achieve.

Aidric

Wibbs wrote: »

I didn't. Indeed I agree with the author(with the most boring voice ever) that most of the "self help" industry is a crock. It's one reason I can't stand the pickup artist BS. It gives false hope wrapped up in BS in exchange for money.

I limit my self help input to areas where results are actually realisable. ie I'll buy cooking books as they'll produce a tangible output. Not even sure if cooking books can be classified as self help.
No self help book will change your personality. If you adhere to a few bullet points in a self help book you are merely creating the illusion that you are a person you're not.

Wibbs wrote: »

Though I'd agree with your other points, I'd disagree here P. OK someone doesn't need to be the life and soul, but introverts have a much harder time of it, especially introverted men. A guy could have the most amazing life/soul/whatever, but if he doesn't let people know how can they find out? How can the same guy meet women if he doesn't engage with them?

Word. An introverted person will only serve to negate the environment necessary for fun and friendship to thrive.

Pug160

There are some pearls of wisdom being offered here - which makes for interesting reading. But make no mistake about it, it's a tough road ahead if the problems are mostly psychological. My situation is a lot milder than yours (and seemingly the average guy who's never had a girlfriend) as I've had sporadic sexual success and I'm not even all that awkward - just a bit shy and cynical.

My biggest downfall is that I lack charm. I'd put that at number two behind physical attractiveness in terms of importance - that's how highly rate it. Even a woman who is really into you physically will expect you to charm her a little bit - if you don't there is little chance of anything happening. You can improve though, as I have.

I ended up putting too much emphasis on looks and when it still wasn't having the desired effect it blew a few theories out of the water for me. Make yourself look good anyway though, as it is nice to be healthy and feel good about yourself. I'm in decent shape, eat a decent diet, use moisturisers, bio serums, buy clothes straight from Italy and all that jazz. I attract women initially but I'm still working on the charm. As Wibbs said, some people have lost very important years from their lives and are playing catch up.

paleoperson

The PUA is certainly a crock, there are entire websites and forums full of disgruntled people complaining about them. It is all about manipulation and being dishonest, and they are okay with that. The very essence of ethics seem lost on these people. Instead of being "with" your partner or potential partner, your thoughts are with what you read or heard about what you're "supposed" to do. Even if it "works" you're a cheat and a failure.

Some self-help books blur the lines between education and self-help. For example I bought two books on how to communicate effectively recently. I also bought a book on charisma a while ago, which looks quite good but I couldn't tell you whether it's really any benefit or not.

Sauve

Mod
To quote directly from the charter

"Discussion of Pick-Up-Artists (PUA) methods and techniques are not allowed on this forum."

Daveysil15

paddy1990 wrote: »

I was in town earlier and the amount of in shape guys with chubby girls was amazing.

This may come as a shock, but maybe, just maybe they were drawn to their personalities? I've seen just as many attractive women who are with guys below average in the looks department. I know a few models who are very tall and have boyfriends who are shorter.

Age is a huge factor for men than it is for women. Try picking up a 20 year old girl if you're 35. Meanwhile set up a dating profile with an average 35 year old womans pictures online and see how many 20 year old guys she can get (hint - alot)

Now this I would agree with. Having chatted to a lot of women of POF, some of which are pushing 40, they get a lot of messages from younger men, usually just guys looking to bang a MILF.

The OP wouldn't be in his position if he looked like a male model.

Well that's fairly obvious.

pwurple

Though I'd agree with your other points, I'd disagree here P. OK someone doesn't need to be the life and soul, but introverts have a much harder time of it, especially introverted men. A guy could have the most amazing life/soul/whatever, but if he doesn't let people know how can they find out? How can the same guy meet women if he doesn't engage with them?

I think you are possibly conflating being an introvert with having crippling insecurities.

Introverts usually engage very well with people on a one-on-one basis, but not great in crowds. Get stressed in situations like pubs, clubs, festivals, etc. Do well in coffee shops, university study areas, reading the paper on the bus, etc.

It's when you have insecurities AND are an introvert that you don't even open your mouth.

ancapailldorcha

pwurple wrote: »

I think you are possibly conflating being an introvert with having crippling insecurities.

Introverts usually engage very well with people on a one-on-one basis, but not great in crowds. Get stressed in situations like pubs, clubs, festivals, etc. Do well in coffee shops, university study areas, reading the paper on the bus, etc.

It's when you have insecurities AND are an introvert that you don't even open your mouth.

Nail meet head.

One way I've tried getting around my introversion was to become an organiser for the local Couchsurfing group. Unfortunately, I do struggle a bit in crowds. The only chap I knew down here before I moved is usually accompanied by a dozen complete stranger each time. Someone at work finds it difficult to believe that I see myself as introverted but like you say, fine one-to-one or in small groups but gets lost easily in a crowd.