Is it self defeatist to say that some men are meant to be alone??‏

Potatoeman

beks101 wrote: »

Yeah just this.

A complete lack of experience with women can hinder a general understanding that we are not 'wimmenz' with a hive mind, who all want the same thing, who all experience the same emotions, who are all out to publicly humiliate the men we are not attracted to, whose worth can all be measured by our physical attractiveness and that of which can be measured on a sliding scale ('she's definitely an 8 or a 9'), who all require the same magic recipe in order to be 'pulled' etc etc etc ad nauseam.

It's just accountable for so much. 'Nice guy' syndrome, 'all Irish women are b1tches', 'she's out of my league', 'all women want bad boys'.

And when I say lack of experience, I don't mean someone who hasn't had a string of one night stands or any long term relationships. I mean someone who has little to no women in his life. No female friends or close female relatives who form part of their social experience, maybe went to an all-male school, works in a male-dominated environment and never learned to mix.

It's very hard to keep up these mad and entirely inaccurate notions about women when you're surrounded by great females who you can laugh with and joke with and talk shyte with and confide in and share life experiences with.

I see it even with my own male mates - there's no separation in their own heads when it comes to the sexes, no 'women on one side of the hall, men on the other'. They'll walk into a room and talk to whichever interesting person crosses their path, not the 'hot girl' because they're after a shag and no complete avoidance of her either out of pure, unadulterated fear. She's just another person and if she's an idiot fcuk it, they won't even bother.

To a lad who has had no 'success' with women, that can appear to be some gift of god-like confidence that he's been bestowed with, but in reality it's just social conditioning. He's not daunted, scared, overwhelmed, fearful or intimidated by women because he's learned that they are HUMAN.

The pub/club scene plays a huge part in this. You need to have pretty thick skin. I've seen some pretty brutal rejections over the years and though they are overall a very small percent if you can't handle rejection you can come away with this kind of attitude. This is where the PUA thing comes from.

Remmy

Potatoeman wrote: »

The pub/club scene plays a huge part in this. You need to have pretty thick skin. I've seen some pretty brutal rejections over the years and though they are overall a very small percent if you can't handle rejection you can come away with this kind of attitude. This is where the PUA thing comes from.

Just curious, what's the most brutal rejection you ever seen?

pwurple

Potatoeman wrote: »

The pub/club scene plays a huge part in this. You need to have pretty thick skin. I've seen some pretty brutal rejections over the years and though they are overall a very small percent if you can't handle rejection you can come away with this kind of attitude. This is where the PUA thing comes from.

You know, the pub/club scene was never a place I would go to meet guys when I was young, free and single. I saw them as places to go dancing with my friends. I would usually brush off every pick-up attempt in a club, because I wasn't remotely interested in snogging some drunken stranger.

I met boyfriends in sports clubs, or university societies, or at work, or through mutual friends. That way it wasn't just some randomer, but someone who actually shared my own interests or outlook.

I don't think flinging failed attempt after attempt at random women in some meat-market noisy drunken environment is that healthy tbh.

Daveysil15

pwurple wrote: »

You know, the pub/club scene was never a place I would go to meet guys when I was young, free and single. I saw them as places to go dancing with my friends. I would usually brush off every pick-up attempt in a club, because I wasn't remotely interested in snogging some drunken stranger.

I met boyfriends in sports clubs, or university societies, or at work, or through mutual friends. That way it wasn't just some randomer, but someone who actually shared my own interests or outlook.

I don't think flinging failed attempt after attempt at random women in some meat-market noisy drunken environment is that healthy tbh.

I'd agree with that. By all means chance your arm every now and again but the aim should be to go out and have a good time and if you meet someone its a bonus.

I think a lot of girls go to the clubs to dance with their mates. Some guys see that as a invitation for a bit of grinding. I never had any luck in the clubs. Outside the chippers or taxi ranks seem to be better.

TheBeardedLady

Daveysil15 wrote: »

I'd agree with that. By all means chance your arm every now and again but the aim should be to go out and have a good time and if you meet someone its a bonus.

I think a lot of girls go to the clubs to dance with their mates. Some guys see that as a invitation for a bit of grinding. I never had any luck in the clubs. Outside the chippers or taxi ranks seem to be better.

Haha!


Now that I think about it, a lot of my hooking up went on after the pub closed. Chipper is a great place to get chattin' to people and have a laugh. At least it was when I was 20-24.

There's pubs/clubs that are meat markets and pubs/clubs that aren't. I never frequented the former and found it easy enough to get talking to nice people.

Pug160

The downside of meeting someone really late while waiting for a taxi or food is that there's more chance she won't get back in touch when you contact her again - that's been my experience at least. It's all just a bit of fun and banter anyway though, so it's no big deal if nothing happens of course. It's better to interact over the duration of the night when you're out though, as it won't look like you're one of those guys who can only chat at the death on a heavy dose of Dutch courage.

Always have an open mind, as anything is possible. I sometimes look at a little section in the newspaper that's dedicated to a couple getting married, and some of them seem to meet in some quite unbelievable ways. It makes you realise that things are not always logical and that certain little oddities do occur from time to time. I used to have this idea in my mind about 'classy' women and what they were, and thought that they never went to certain places or behaved in certain ways. But it was nonsense and it was holding me back. Some of us have all sorts of little assumptions that could be holding us back I think.

beks101

pwurple wrote: »

You know, the pub/club scene was never a place I would go to meet guys when I was young, free and single. I saw them as places to go dancing with my friends. I would usually brush off every pick-up attempt in a club, because I wasn't remotely interested in snogging some drunken stranger.

I met boyfriends in sports clubs, or university societies, or at work, or through mutual friends. That way it wasn't just some randomer, but someone who actually shared my own interests or outlook.

I don't think flinging failed attempt after attempt at random women in some meat-market noisy drunken environment is that healthy tbh.

This is a great point actually. I met my boyfriend through a college mate. Met my ex before that through friends at a house party when I lived in Canada.

I think when you meet someone in that way the pressure's off - mostly you're just there hanging out with your friends, not thinking about impressing the opposite sex or trying to pull or whatever.

On top of that you're likely to have so much more in common with that person because they're mates with your mates - similar interests, backgrounds, sense of humour, similar personalities. As opposed to punching around in the dark with a randomer in a bar. It's more of a pick n mix that way - you don't know what you're getting. Could be someone you're compatible with, could be an absolute no-go in the sober light of day.

And I think that sort of anonymous hook-up culture you find in pubs/clubs isn't exactly compatible with meeting someone like this. For one if you don't bother contacting that person again, you're sort of that dick who messed your friend's friend around, you know? It can create awkwardness and a bad reputation within your social circle.

Pug160

beks101 wrote: »

This is a great point actually. I met my boyfriend through a college mate. Met my ex before that through friends at a house party when I lived in Canada.

I think when you meet someone in that way the pressure's off - mostly you're just there hanging out with your friends, not thinking about impressing the opposite sex or trying to pull or whatever.

On top of that you're likely to have so much more in common with that person because they're mates with your mates - similar interests, backgrounds, sense of humour, similar personalities. As opposed to punching around in the dark with a randomer in a bar. It's more of a pick n mix that way - you don't know what you're getting. Could be someone you're compatible with, could be an absolute no-go in the sober light of day.

And I think that sort of anonymous hook-up culture you find in pubs/clubs isn't exactly compatible with meeting someone like this. For one if you don't bother contacting that person again, you're sort of that dick who messed your friend's friend around, you know? It can create awkwardness and a bad reputation within your social circle.

The major problem is building a mixed sex social circle - it's not actually that easy for some people. I'm beginning to think that some men don't actually like socialising with women as friends - maybe that's part of the problem as well. People with a more academic background and who have gone to uni etc tend to have healthier social circles from what I can see. Certain jobs with a large workforce can also be good, as there tends to be a more social element to that. Don't get me wrong, there are ways to build it I'm sure, but it's not exactly straightforward. Picking a specific job or hobby purely for a potential social circle might not be the best idea in the world.

Roquentin

Pug160 wrote: »

The major problem is building a mixed sex social circle - it's not actually that easy for some people. I'm beginning to think that some men don't actually like socialising with women as friends - maybe that's part of the problem as well. People with with a more academic background and who have gone to uni etc tend to have healthier social circles from what I can see. Certain jobs with a large workforce can also be good, as there tends to be a more social element to that. Don't get me wrong, there are ways to build it I'm sure, but it's not exactly straightforward. Picking a specific job or hobby purely for a potential social circle might not be the best idea in the world.

i think alright work or maybe sports groups are good ways to meet rather than clubs.

Daveysil15

TheBeardedLady wrote: »

Haha!


Now that I think about it, a lot of my hooking up went on after the pub closed. Chipper is a great place to get chattin' to people and have a laugh. At least it was when I was 20-24.

There's pubs/clubs that are meat markets and pubs/clubs that aren't. I never frequented the former and found it easy enough to get talking to nice people.

My cousin met his girlfriend outside a chippers. She stumbled and knocked the bag of chips out of his hand. She even had the audacity to take a bite out of his sausage.

Now with regards to meeting people in nightclubs, from my experience the old ones were better. A lot of nightclubs nowadays are very pretentious. People sitting around on velvet sofas trying to look cool. At some point club promoters became entranced with the idea of hiring Z-list celebs to attend their clubs. Clubs were better when there was no theme - Just beer, music and women.

Pug160 wrote: »

The downside of meeting someone really late while waiting for a taxi or food is that there's more chance she won't get back in touch when you contact her again

I dunno, it depends. At least you can have a daycent chat out on the street. No loud music to contend with. Myself and a friend of mine shared a taxi home with a couple of gals once. We exchanged numbers and kept in touch for a while. But then there was another night when a girl puked on my shoe in the back of a cab which wasn't too nice. You have to take the rough with the smooth I suppose.

beks101

Pug160 wrote: »

The major problem is building a mixed sex social circle - it's not actually that easy for some people. I'm beginning to think that some men don't actually like socialising with women as friends - maybe that's part of the problem as well. People with with a more academic background and who have gone to uni etc tend to have healthier social circles from what I can see. Certain jobs with a large workforce can also be good, as there tends to be a more social element to that. Don't get me wrong, there are ways to build it I'm sure, but it's not exactly straightforward. Picking a specific job or hobby purely for a potential social circle might not be the best idea in the world.

Yeah that's true. I certainly don't think the single sex schools things helps one bit. I don't remember having any male friends before I went to college. In fact, I distinctly remember feeling nervous and shy around guys my own age, particularly the ones I fancied. Couldn't talk to them at all. Would never have imagined some of my best friends would be male ten years later and I'd talk to them about all kinds of things, confide in them, get pissed with them, laugh and cry with them etc.

I don't subscribe to this idea that men and women simply can't be platonic friends. Most of my male friends are like brothers, simply couldn't fathom anything beyond a friendship and they'd be the same. Most are in relationships but the ones that aren't will tell me who they're into, who they're scoring, ask for women advice etc. I'd be a less rounded person I think if I didn't have that male dimension in my social circle, it makes dealing with male colleagues and clients and even male relatives or strangers I encounter so much easier.

Potatoeman

Remmy wrote: »

Just curious, what's the most brutal rejection you ever seen?

I've seen guys told to f*ck off while chatting to someone at the bar. I've been blanked myself a few times while making idle chit chat waiting for service. If I'm queuing for a drink I usually chat to whoevers there but some women can be very defensive.

Potatoeman

pwurple wrote: »

You know, the pub/club scene was never a place I would go to meet guys when I was young, free and single. I saw them as places to go dancing with my friends. I would usually brush off every pick-up attempt in a club, because I wasn't remotely interested in snogging some drunken stranger.

I met boyfriends in sports clubs, or university societies, or at work, or through mutual friends. That way it wasn't just some randomer, but someone who actually shared my own interests or outlook.

I don't think flinging failed attempt after attempt at random women in some meat-market noisy drunken environment is that healthy tbh.

They are not great places to meet someone but you are kind of limiting the amount of people you can meet if it's only through friends/work etc.

TheBeardedLady

Potatoeman wrote: »

They are not great places to meet someone but you are kind of limiting the amount of people you can meet if it's only through friends/work etc.

I genuinely disagree that they're bad places to meet people. Again, it really depends on where you're going and if they're meat-markety places where you can't talk. A lot of people meet their partners on nights out, so I wouldn't discount it too quickly.

I do agree though, that I probably got together with most of my exes (I've had quite a few, both long and short) by being introduced via someone we both knew mutually initially, including the current one. Sometimes it's just a matter of an introduction and not a set up or anything.

paddy1990

To the people who think men and women can be platonic friends who see each other as brother and sister, i would say that depends on the attractiveness of each of them. For attractive women, in my opinion, its highly unlikely.

One of my friends is a VERY attractive girl. She has a lot of "guy friends" who she says she is sure are not attracted to her and they are just friends. Recently, a few of us met for dinner and after we all talked about this topic and agreed and disagreed, for the laugh, I took out 500 euro and offered to give her the money if she was right. I proposed that she send each guy a message saying that she always secretly found him attractive, and was alone in a hotel in dublin for the night and would like him to come over and have sex with her. She has 7 really good guy friends and I offered her the 500 quid if ANY of the men turned it down (this girl is gorgeous).

Needless to say she wasn't willing to take the challenge... because she knew I was right. Every single guy would have met up with her in the hotel for sex.

If a really attractive girl thinks that she can have purely guy "friends" who don't secretly want to have sex with her, I would have to disagree.

B0jangles

Or maybe she thought that telling a weird lie to 7 close friends, just to prove a point to you was a bad idea?

Roquentin

paddy1990 wrote: »

To the people who think men and women can be platonic friends who see each other as brother and sister, i would say that depends on the attractiveness of each of them. For attractive women, in my opinion, its highly unlikely.

One of my friends is a VERY attractive girl. She has a lot of "guy friends" who she says she is sure are not attracted to her and they are just friends. Recently, a few of us met for dinner and after we all talked about this topic and agreed and disagreed, for the laugh, I took out 500 euro and offered to give her the money if she was right. I proposed that she send each guy a message saying that she always secretly found him attractive, and was alone in a hotel in dublin for the night and would like him to come over and have sex with her. She has 7 really good guy friends and I offered her the 500 quid if ANY of the men turned it down (this girl is gorgeous).

Needless to say she wasn't willing to take the challenge... because she knew I was right. Every single guy would have met up with her in the hotel for sex.

If a really attractive girl thinks that she can have purely guy "friends" who don't secretly want to have sex with her, I would have to disagree.

id love to put that theory to the test. i suspect at least 6 of them would

paddy1990

Roquentin wrote: »

id love to put that theory to the test. i suspect at least 6 of them would

All 7 would. This girl looks like a prime Jessica Alba. Just LOL at her thinking her male friends thought of her like a sister

Roquentin

paddy1990 wrote: »

All 7 would. This girl looks like a prime Jessica Alba. Just LOL at her thinking her male friends thought of her like a sister

in fairness i saw the same thing in college(not everywhere). Youd have this stunner and shed be surrounded by an entourage of men, who were like you say were all covertly after her.


of course very few men in the entourage realized their fantasy......but thats life

paddy1990

Roquentin wrote: »

in fairness i saw the same thing in college(not everywhere). Youd have this stunner and shed be surrounded by an entourage of men, who were like you say were all covertly after her.


of course very few men in the entourage realized their fantasy......but thats life

Funny thing is, a lot of the guys are indeed covertly after her. I know all of the guys shes "close" friends with and we've all had the talks about how hot she is etc etc. 500 quid is a fair bit of money, I wouldn't have put it up if I wasn't entirely sure. Still she insists that they are all just "friends"

TheBeardedLady

A strange life you lead, Paddy1990. What a weird thing to do.

Thargor

TheBeardedLady wrote: »

A strange life you lead, Paddy1990. What a weird thing to do.

None of this happened, read his posting history, its all complete fantasy.

In his head offering an attractive woman €500 to whore herself by text to multiple men sounds like the kind of wacky jape those good looking people in the Heineken ads might get up to but to anyone reading it it just sounds strange as you said and definitely not something that actually occurred.

If this "Prime Jessica Alba" existed who would refuse a free ride in a hotel anyway? What is the €500 bet supposed to prove? (This is €500 he had on him in his pocket and just "took out" aswell apparently, probably a days work from the successful modelling career he previously regaled us about...).

This is just another of this gobsh1tes illuminating insights alongside good looking people have more sex or that women like their partners to have money. I wonder if his best friend the manager of one of the most successful city center nightclubs in Dublin was there when this happening?

Potatoeman

TheBeardedLady wrote: »

I genuinely disagree that they're bad places to meet people. Again, it really depends on where you're going and if they're meat-markety places where you can't talk. A lot of people meet their partners on nights out, so I wouldn't discount it too quickly.

I do agree though, that I probably got together with most of my exes (I've had quite a few, both long and short) by being introduced via someone we both knew mutually initially, including the current one. Sometimes it's just a matter of an introduction and not a set up or anything.

I have meet some great people in the pub but have met more girlfriends at houseparties. I suppose people are more relaxed around people they know.

Piliger

Potatoeman wrote: »

I have meet some great people in the pub but have met more girlfriends at houseparties. I suppose people are more relaxed around people they know.

If we could only get guys and girls to stop, and take a step back, and change their behaviour to something remotely recognisable as rational.

What is it they say is the definition of insanity ? Repeating the same actions over and over and over again, and expecting a different result !

Instead of complaining incessantly about night clubs and being unable to meet men/women, what they need to do is CHANGE their behaviour and start joining social groups, start visiting friends more often, and admitting to themselves and other people that Nightclubs and pubs are BORING !

Remember people, you may only have five friends .. but each of them has 5+ and so on. By being more FRIENDLY we can tap into a wide network of people where we can engage in more rational behaviour like going out for reasons other than to to go nightclubs. Group trips to places like Howth or Dunleary, house parties that are not raves, organise a Wicklow mountain walk, ad nauseum. Stop listening to the dickhead who calls every decent idea 'boring' and 'not cool'. Get people together and do enjoyable social stuff.

It is while doing all of this actually enjoyable social stuff that we bump into potential girlfriends and boyfriends.

Thargor

Stonecutter735 wrote: »

I believe that's known as an ad hominem argument. Regardless of paddy's character or ability to generate fictitious stories the basic premise of the experiment he described holds merit with respect to the question of whether men and hot women can ever truly be platonic friends.

Lol, I wonder who set up this Stonecutter735 account? Funny that he signs up in September 2014 and his first 2 posts are jumping to the defense of a troll, what do you do for a living Stonecutter? Male model? City Centre nightclub manager?

Roquentin

Piliger wrote: »

If we could only get guys and girls to stop, and take a step back, and change their behaviour to something remotely recognisable as rational.

What is it they say is the definition of insanity ? Repeating the same actions over and over and over again, and expecting a different result !

Instead of complaining incessantly about night clubs and being unable to meet men/women, what they need to do is CHANGE their behaviour and start joining social groups, start visiting friends more often, and admitting to themselves and other people that Nightclubs and pubs are BORING !

Remember people, you may only have five friends .. but each of them has 5+ and so on. By being more FRIENDLY we can tap into a wide network of people where we can engage in more rational behaviour like going out for reasons other than to to go nightclubs. Group trips to places like Howth or Dunleary, house parties that are not raves, organise a Wicklow mountain walk, ad nauseum. Stop listening to the dickhead who calls every decent idea 'boring' and 'not cool'. Get people together and do enjoyable social stuff.

It is while doing all of this actually enjoyable social stuff that we bump into potential girlfriends and boyfriends.

i think you make a very good point. You have to go out to enjoy yourself. so whether you are going to have a walk with friends or going to the pub. The mindset should be to have a good time.

Unfortunately men go out to "Pull" a woman and come across as pushy or desperate.

Roquentin

Stonecutter735 wrote: »

I believe that's known as an ad hominem argument. Regardless of paddy's character or ability to generate fictitious stories the basic premise of the experiment he described holds merit with respect to the question of whether men and hot women can ever truly be platonic friends.

its like one of those thought experiments in quantum mechanics that Einstein made famous:)

Wibbs

Stonecutter735 wrote: »

the question of whether men and hot women can ever truly be platonic friends.

Yep I think they can and have seen actual examples of it. One of my very good mates is a "hot" woman. I've know her since I was 20. I can see that she's objectively good looking but I never subjectively had any sexual feelings for her and vice versa. Dunno why, but there it is. If she sent me a come hither text I'd refuse and wonder WTF she had been drinking/smoking. It would be like snogging a sister. Sure if we were the last two people on earth and had to continue the species, but god it would require mahoosive drinking beforehand.

Maybe it's some deep biological thing for some? There's a theory we partially mate select on the basis of pheromones that signal if our immune systems are sufficiently different for a couple to be compatible and if they're not the attraction dies. I've had that with a woman I got physical with. She would have been physically close to my "type", was very sound and we got on well, but after a snogging session it just felt bloody weird for both of us and any attraction just died on the vine.

That said I have certainly seen women, good looking and plain, who had male "friends" who were sooooo not hanging around for the friendship. They were definitely after more. I used to see it with my mate in the example above. These guys would pretend to be mates, but would get real jealous if I was around. They were convinced I wanted what they did. You could spot it a mile off. Now she's a clued in type and not even close to being a user in such a situation, so she'd usually spot them too, but not always.

Sometimes it's going one way from the orbiting blokes to the women, but equally it can be a deliberate ego boost for some women and they will tag these lovesick eejits along. That's the self centred type. They often have different men(and women) in their lives for different purposes. If they can't get it all from one man(and the type never can) they build a little social network to cover the bases. These are usually easy to spot too. Very good looking women can do this more easily, but I've seen just as many plain, even very plain women do it. Looks doesn't really tell you much.

In Paddy's hypothetical? I'd reckon 4 would jump at the chance, but 2 would be asking WTF?

Wibbs

Depends on your age and individual personality too. Funny enough at 18/19 I hated nightclubs, didn't really get much enjoyment from them until I was in my late 20's early 30's. Go figure. Now if I went to one the locals would be thinking "oh man some woman's da is here to bring her home". Pubs are grand though I like pubs. City centre ones mind you, not so much the pubs in the burbs.

TheBeardedLady

Stonecutter735 wrote: »

In fairness to him he makes a very valid point, what do you think the result of that experiment would be?

I suppose the likelihood that a very hot woman will have men befriending her to get with her is higher as she's very hot (hardly rocket science) but I doubt she's incapable of having any platonic male, straight friends at all.



I suppose what Paddy's test would highlight is that many women and men have friends knowing they fancy them for an ego boost and pretend they don't know but does it prove that she can't have male friends full stop? Nah.