Dundalk fined €18,000 by UEFA over Palestinian Flags

Pro. F

djpbarry wrote: »

All the above would “prove” is that UEFA was being “inconsistent” according to your definition.

It is entirely possible that a UEFA official could see, for example, a Russian flag at a UEFA game not involving any Russian players or teams, decide to do nothing about it and in no way violate UEFA’s rules governing these matters. You seem to be completely unwilling to accept this.

I'm using the OED definition of the word:

inconsistent

adjective
1 Not staying the same throughout

1.1 Acting at variance with one’s own principles or former behaviour

I agree that your hypothetical scenario is entirely possible and that action by an official would not necessarily violate UEFA's rules. It is quite possible that UEFA's rules regarding the display of national flags are inconsistent.

red sean

Thread gone beyond the point of boring!

shanered

red sean wrote: »

Thread gone beyond the point of boring!

I'd flag it for a locking, but its against the rules....:pac:

dan1895

Wonder if Dortmund will get fined for that Scottish flag they had hanging tonight. Strong political statement considering the week that's in it.

batistuta9

dan1895 wrote: »

Wonder if Dortmund will get fined for that Scottish flag they had hanging tonight. Strong political statement considering the week that's in it.

there was the Israel flag shown there tonight too.

union jack & scots flag side by side at arsenal last saturday as well

NIMAN

Saltire at the Brandywell tonight as well.

dan1895

The whole thing is stupid of course as any national flag can be seen as a political statement depending on your political viewpoint. There was also a Greek flag there which may be considered as siding politically with Greece in the whole Greece/Cyprus/Turkey situation.
I'm not saying that is why those flags were there or that Dortmund should be fined, just pointing out as others have done how pathetic UEFA's rules are.

Pinturicchio

Intifada

NIMAN

Another fine?



http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/premier-league/mauricio-pochettino-blasts-antisemitic-banner-as-unacceptable-30598680.html

Intifada

What's anti-semitic about that? Jew isn't an insult.

Pinturicchio

Intifada wrote: »

What's anti-semitic about that? Jew isn't an insult.

In the context it is clearly meant as an insult.

losthorizon

Pinturicchio wrote: »

Well, thats defo a fine.

As are the insulting terms to jews in the posts below your post.

Must keep an eye out on UEFA fines?

losthorizon

In the very latest development Sweden has just recognised Palestine as an independent nation. This was despite strong pressure by both Israel and the USA.

The_Kew_Tour

Well done Sweden

Jelle1880

losthorizon wrote: »

In the very latest development Sweden has just recognised Palestine as an independent nation. This was despite strong pressure by both Israel and the USA.

'Latest development' ?

What does that have to do with this thread ? Unless you think Sweden saw the Dundalk game and decided it would be a good idea to recognise Palestine to annoy UEFA ?

A Dub in Glasgo

Jelle1880 wrote: »

What does that have to do with this thread ?

It shows the utter stupidity of the UEFA ruling

Jelle1880

No it doesn't.

UEFA's rules are crystal clear, they make no political statements on the legitimacy of a Palestinian state and the fines for Palestinian flags are not about that either.

Pro. F

Jelle1880 wrote: »

No it doesn't.

UEFA's rules are crystal clear, they make no political statements on the legitimacy of a Palestinian state and the fines for Palestinian flags are not about that either.

The rules aren't publicly available, so they're far from crystal clear.

losthorizon

losthorizon wrote: »

In the very latest development Sweden has just recognised Palestine as an independent nation. This was despite strong pressure by both Israel and the USA.

Dear God.

Some diplomatic move by Sweden is seen as a development in a story involving a L of I club. I've heard of being insular, but come on...

Zebra3

Palestine is a member of FIFA.

Bizarre that UEFA fine clubs for waving the flag of one FIFA member and not another.

Jelle1880

Pro. F wrote: »

The rules aren't publicly available, so they're far from crystal clear.

http://www.ecaeurope.com/Legal/UEFA%20Documents/2013_0241_Disciplinary%20Regulations%202013.pdf

Article 14, point 7.

I think it's fair to say that the waving of a Palestine flag during the war there was a political statement.

tayto lover

Jelle1880 wrote: »

http://www.ecaeurope.com/Legal/UEFA%20Documents/2013_0241_Disciplinary%20Regulations%202013.pdf

Article 14, point 7.

I think it's fair to say that the waving of a Palestine flag during the war there was a political statement.

How much were clubs fined for waving the Israeli flag then during that one-sided war?

A Dub in Glasgo

Jelle1880 wrote: »

http://www.ecaeurope.com/Legal/UEFA%20Documents/2013_0241_Disciplinary%20Regulations%202013.pdf

Article 14, point 7.

I think it's fair to say that the waving of a Palestine flag during the war there was a political statement.

War? you are extracting the urine

Jelle1880

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

War? you are extracting the urine

Two sides exchanging fire can be seen as a war, no matter if one side is far stronger or weaker.
No doubt you'd rather call it a genocide or whatever other hysteric name you want to put on it, but that's semantics.

As for Israel flags being waved: If the match officials' reports don't mention it nothing will happen. Make of that what you will, no doubt some will see a big conspiracy in that

tayto lover

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Two sides exchanging fire can be seen as a war, no matter if one side is far stronger or weaker.
No doubt you'd rather call it a genocide or whatever other hysteric name you want to put on it, but that's semantics.

As for Israel flags being waved: If the match officials report doesn't mention it nothing will happen. Make of that what you will, no doubt some will see a big conspiracy in that

AND conspiracy it seems to be otherwise action would have been taken.

It's either that or blind officials at the other games :pac:

Zebra3

Jelle1880 wrote: »

http://www.ecaeurope.com/Legal/UEFA%20Documents/2013_0241_Disciplinary%20Regulations%202013.pdf

Article 14, point 7.

I think it's fair to say that the waving of a Palestine flag during the war there was a political statement.

So fines for British or French flags at matches while those countries are bombing the Middle East (again)?

*Holds bated breath*

Jelle1880

Zebra3 wrote: »

So fines for British or French flags at matches while those countries are bombing the Middle East (again)?

*Holds bated breath*

That argument was already proven to be inaccurate earlier in the thread.

I think it's fairly safe to say that most clubs where British or French flags are flown are clubs that are either from said countries or have players from those countries, so you have no way of saying that those flags are political.

I don't think Dundalk have a Palestinian player or a significant Palestinian fan base ?
So the idea that the flag is used as political statement is a lot more obvious, which is why the match official said what he said.

losthorizon

Deleted User wrote: »

Dear God.

Some diplomatic move by Sweden is seen as a development in a story involving a L of I club. I've heard of being insular, but come on...

Maybe one should get a dictionary and look up the word insular. Laughable that you use it when it involves an Irish team playing in an international club competition getting a fine over an Asian entity.

Richard Hillman

tayto lover wrote: »

How much were clubs fined for waving the Israeli flag then during that one-sided war?

One sided war :pac:

Off to the politics forum if you want to discuss the latest shamozzle between Israel and Palestine

tayto lover

[QUOTE=Richard Hillman;92472092]One sided war :pac:

Off to the politics forum if you want to discuss the latest shamozzle between Israel and Palestine[/QUOTE]

Have you nothing to say about the rest of the post?
It was your friend who mentioned the war too :rolleyes:

tayto lover

Jelle1880 wrote: »

That argument was already proven to be inaccurate earlier in the threat.

I think it's fairly safe to say that most clubs where British or French flags are flown are clubs that are either from said countries or have players from those countries, so you have no way of saying that those flags are political.

I don't think Dundalk have a Palestinian player or a significant Palestinian fan base ?
So the idea that the flag is used as political statement is a lot more obvious, which is why the match official said what he said.

Maybe you could give us a list of the Israeli players at the other clubs?

Jelle1880

tayto lover wrote: »

Maybe you could give us a list of the Israeli players at the other clubs?

What other clubs ?

Ajax and Spurs with their well-established Jewish links ?

You're going round in circles, this has all been talked about earlier in the thread.

tayto lover

Jelle1880 wrote: »

What other clubs ?

Ajax and Spurs with their well-established Jewish links ?

You're going round in circles, this has all been talked about earlier in the thread.

They are political flags regardless of links because they were more prevalent during the recent "war".
If the Palestinian flag is political then so is the Israeli flag.
Simple.

Zebra3

Jelle1880 wrote: »

That argument was already proven to be inaccurate earlier in the thread.

I think it's fairly safe to say that most clubs where British or French flags are flown are clubs that are either from said countries or have players from those countries, so you have no way of saying that those flags are political.

I don't think Dundalk have a Palestinian player or a significant Palestinian fan base ?
So the idea that the flag is used as political statement is a lot more obvious, which is why the match official said what he said.

But if Dundalk were playing this week in Europe and their fans had a French flag, would they have got fined?*



*No.

Jelle1880

Zebra3 wrote: »

But if Dundalk were playing this week in Europe and their fans had a French flag, would they have got fined?*



*No.

Hypothetical claims are useless because you don't know what will or will not happen.

tayto lover

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Hypothetical claims are useless because you don't know what will or will not happen.

It would be a very safe bet though as you probably know.

losthorizon

losthorizon wrote: »

Maybe one should get a dictionary and look up the word insular. Laughable that you use it when it involves an Irish team playing in an international club competition getting a fine over an Asian entity.

It means blinkered and inward looking and that is precisely the meaning I was looking for.

But anyway you want to describe it is fine by me. Laughing too hard at the notion that a diplomatic move by Sweden is summed up as a development in the Dundalk story to be that bothered!

losthorizon

Deleted User wrote: »

It means blinkered and inward looking and that is precisely the meaning I was looking for.

But anyway you want to describe it is fine by me. Laughing too hard at the notion that a diplomatic move by Sweden is summed up as a development in the Dundalk story to be that bothered!

How is it blinkered and inward looking?

AS someone myself who has traveled to between 30 and 40 nations, has a Geography degree from UCC and is a Cork City and LOI supporter I would hardly call LOI supporters blinkered. In fact they are very outward looking.

You sound like a solicitor in the way you need everything spelled out for you.

Of course the Swedish move had nothing to do with the match per se but it did show that many nations around the world view Palestine as a legitimate nation. We recognize Kosovo. Spain dont.

FIFA and UEFA say they only allow independent nations as well but have plenty of non independent members too - Hong Kong, Macau, The Faroes and Puerto Rico for example.

losthorizon

losthorizon wrote: »

How is it blinkered and inward looking?

AS someone myself who has traveled to between 30 and 40 nations, has a Geography degree from UCC and is a Cork City and LOI supporter I would hardly call LOI supporters blinkered. In fact they are very outward looking.

You sound like a solicitor in the way you need everything spelled out for you.

Of course the Swedish move had nothing to do with the match per se...

You must be responding to someone else, because I didn't make any comment about L of I fans at all. I commented on your post.

You are also apparently answering someone who asked for a summary of your education and travel experience. Again, that wasn't me.

All that travelling must be confusing you. I mean, when you said "per se" in the above post, did you not mean "at all at all"?

losthorizon

Deleted User wrote: »

You must be responding to someone else, because I didn't make any comment about L of I fans at all. I commented on your post.

You are also apparently answering someone who asked for a summary of your education and travel experience. Again, that wasn't me.

All that travelling must be confusing you. I mean, when you said "per se" in the above post, did you not mean "at all at all"?

Typical stuff.

Subterfuge.

Accuse people of being inward looking and then if that doesnt work just ignore the subject totally.

losthorizon

losthorizon wrote: »

Typical stuff.

Subterfuge.

Accuse people of being inward looking and then if that doesnt work just ignore the subject totally.

No no, losthorizon, you, I was saying you were inward looking in your posts here. Not L of I fans, not people in general.

Come on, I'm not the only one who sees the funny side of your efforts. Another poster also spotted it straight away. You have to see it too. Sweden makes a diplomatic move and you characterise it as a development in the Dundalk issue, and even in your last post you would only go as far as saying they were not linked "per se". They are not linked at all, not in the slightest, Sweden neither knows of nor cares about Dundalk's predicament.

The defensiveness and "I've been to lots of countries" is only making it all funnier!

losthorizon

You are the one linking them not me. I am just pointing out the stupidity of UEFAS policy.

Cant you get your mind around that fact? You do this with every issue. Using word games but not tackling issues.
Its silly.

You cant treat one issue differently depending on the side.

Linfield flew an Israeli flag on the same night. It doesnt mean the Israeli government keep an eye on Linfields results I'm sure. However it does mean that Linfield should have got a fine.

As a point of interest are you from a county without a LOI club?

djpbarry

tayto lover wrote: »

They are political flags regardless of links because they were more prevalent during the recent "war".

You keep a record of the number of Israeli flags on display at White Hart Lane and the Amsterdam Arena?

djpbarry

losthorizon wrote: »

Of course the Swedish move had nothing to do with the match per se...

So the Swedish move had nothing to do with Dundalk’s fine…

losthorizon wrote: »

…but it did show that many nations around the world view Palestine as a legitimate nation.

…but you’re still trying to establish some sort of link?

losthorizon wrote: »

Linfield flew an Israeli flag on the same night. It doesnt mean the Israeli government keep an eye on Linfields results I'm sure. However it does mean that Linfield should have got a fine.

The logical conclusion is that the UEFA delegate did not see it, probably because his attention was fixed on the large number of Linfield supporters who were standing behind a goal (for which Linfield was heavily fined).

Of course, people would prefer to develop conspiracy theories…

tayto lover

djpbarry wrote: »

You keep a record of the number of Israeli flags on display at White Hart Lane and the Amsterdam Arena?

Do you think the numbers decreased or increased during the conflict?
Think carefully now.

Skylinehead

tayto lover wrote: »

Do you think the numbers decreased or increased during the conflict?
Think carefully now.

You say it as a fact. Did it or did it not happen? And evidence please.

djpbarry

tayto lover wrote: »

Do you think the numbers decreased or increased during the conflict?
Think carefully now.

What difference does it make what I think?

You seem to be having difficulty separating fact from opinion. You stated quite categorically that the number of Israeli flags on display has increased recently. What you meant to say was that you think the number of Israeli flags on display has increased recently.

Pro. F

Jelle1880 wrote: »

http://www.ecaeurope.com/Legal/UEFA%20Documents/2013_0241_Disciplinary%20Regulations%202013.pdf

Article 14, point 7.

I think it's fair to say that the waving of a Palestine flag during the war there was a political statement.

Waiving any national flag is a political statement. Palestine is far from the only nation currently involved in armed conflict. Are British, American, Russian, French flags also banned from games not involving those nations? Is there guidance in UEFA's rules about that question or are they vague?

They were charged under Article 16 (2) for the flag (not 14, 7). From Dundalk's statement: "These charges relate to Article 16 (2) of the Disciplinary Rules (relating to flags that have been deemed by UEFA to be inappropriate)..." link

And the relevant part of that Article reads:
"e) the use of gestures, words, objects or any other means to transmit any message that is not fit for a sports event, particularly messages that are of a political, ideological, religious, offensive or provocative nature;"

UEFA don't publish the details of which national flags are acceptable and which are not.

tayto lover

djpbarry wrote: »

What difference does it make what I think?

You seem to be having difficulty separating fact from opinion. You stated quite categorically that the number of Israeli flags on display has increased recently. What you meant to say was that you think the number of Israeli flags on display has increased recently.

Yes they have increased. I saw it with my own eyes on Eurosport where they showed the Ajax ground during a match and it was a sea of Israeli flags during the conflict. The commentator even remarked on it. Proof enough for me.