Dundalk fined €18,000 by UEFA over Palestinian Flags

Intifada

Surely the fact that the Israeli state is treated favourably by big corporations and governments is no longer dismissed as a conspiracy theory?

tayto lover

Plenty of people commenting on the unfairness of Uefa too.

DUNDALK FINED FOR PALESTINE FLAG, BUT WHAT ABOUT AJAX?
08.25.14 | Comments Off
By now you are probably aware of the fine Dundalk FC received from UEFA for a flag of Palestine being flown by fans during their Europa League qualifier against Hadjuk Split.
The club issued a statement, saying: “Dundalk FC can confirm that the club has been charged by the UEFA Control, Ethics and Disciplinary Committee.
“These charges relate to Article 16 (2) of the Disciplinary Rules (relating to flags that have been deemed by UEFA to be inappropriate) and Article 45 UEFA Stadium Infrastructure (relating to the prohibition of standing supporters). The total fine is €18,000 for these charges.”
I don’t believe I am alone in thinking this is utterly ridiculous. The main reason is that if Dundalk, a small club in a semi-professional league, can be fined €18,000, then surely big clubs such as Ajax can be fined also.
dundalkpalestineflag
To see the Israeli flag flown in the Amsterdam Arena is a very common occurance (and indeed in White Hart Lane occasionally too). In fact if you look at this image, it’s not like the Ajax fans are hiding it.
Do UEFA fine Ajax? No chance. Have Spurs ever get as much as a warning for their fans sporting the Israeli flag? Nope!
Fining clubs for fans’ racism or violence is supported and encouraged. For flying a flag of Palestine? I don’t think so.
Follow Rob Smith on Twitter (@robsmithireland)

Intifada

It's a shame that more people aren't going down the line of "neither should be punished" rather than "they should also be punished".

It's like arguing for drug legalisation by moaning alcohol isn't banned

Skylinehead

tayto lover wrote: »

Plenty of people commenting on the unfairness of Uefa too.

DUNDALK FINED FOR PALESTINE FLAG, BUT WHAT ABOUT AJAX?
08.25.14 | Comments Off
By now you are probably aware of the fine Dundalk FC received from UEFA for a flag of Palestine being flown by fans during their Europa League qualifier against Hadjuk Split.
The club issued a statement, saying: “Dundalk FC can confirm that the club has been charged by the UEFA Control, Ethics and Disciplinary Committee.
“These charges relate to Article 16 (2) of the Disciplinary Rules (relating to flags that have been deemed by UEFA to be inappropriate) and Article 45 UEFA Stadium Infrastructure (relating to the prohibition of standing supporters). The total fine is €18,000 for these charges.”
I don’t believe I am alone in thinking this is utterly ridiculous. The main reason is that if Dundalk, a small club in a semi-professional league, can be fined €18,000, then surely big clubs such as Ajax can be fined also.
dundalkpalestineflag
To see the Israeli flag flown in the Amsterdam Arena is a very common occurance (and indeed in White Hart Lane occasionally too). In fact if you look at this image, it’s not like the Ajax fans are hiding it.
Do UEFA fine Ajax? No chance. Have Spurs ever get as much as a warning for their fans sporting the Israeli flag? Nope!
Fining clubs for fans’ racism or violence is supported and encouraged. For flying a flag of Palestine? I don’t think so.
Follow Rob Smith on Twitter (@robsmithireland)

The Ajax (and Spurs) situation has been explained to you constantly through this thread. Why do you keep ignoring it?

tayto lover

Skylinehead wrote: »

The Ajax (and Spurs) situation has been explained to you constantly through this thread. Why do you keep ignoring it?

BECAUSE it discriminates against the other state to allow it.
Either both are banned or none are banned. That's the point.
I have said this many times too.
All forms of discrimination should be banned.
Have a read of this -

http://sarilab.wordpress.com/antiracism/

Jelle1880

Pro. F wrote: »

Waiving any national flag is a political statement. Palestine is far from the only nation currently involved in armed conflict. Are British, American, Russian, French flags also banned from games not involving those nations? Is there guidance in UEFA's rules about that question or are they vague?

They were charged under Article 16 (2) for the flag (not 14, 7). From Dundalk's statement: "These charges relate to Article 16 (2) of the Disciplinary Rules (relating to flags that have been deemed by UEFA to be inappropriate)..." link

And the relevant part of that Article reads:
"e) the use of gestures, words, objects or any other means to transmit any message that is not fit for a sports event, particularly messages that are of a political, ideological, religious, offensive or provocative nature;"

UEFA don't publish the details of which national flags are acceptable and which are not.

Most of the fans that bring a foreign flag to a game do so because they want to show their support for a player of their team from that country.

Everton is a great example of this, behind the goal they tend to have an entire range of flags all for players of the team from said countries.

Those are not political statements.

Intifada

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Most of the fans that bring a foreign flag to a game do so because they want to show their support for a player of their team from that country.

Everton is a great example of this, behind the goal they tend to have an entire range of flags all for players of the team from said countries.

Those are not political statements.

What about showing support for people in a country? Showing solidarity with the Palestinian people doesn't mean supporting Hamas or any political faction - especially with the massive % of innocent civilians murdered by the IDF.

Skylinehead

tayto lover wrote: »

BECAUSE it discriminates against the other state to allow it.
Either both are banned or none are banned. That's the point.
I have said this many times too.
All forms of discrimination should be banned.
Have a read of this -

http://sarilab.wordpress.com/antiracism/

Context matters. In the case where it's clearly a political statement, i.e. Dundalk or Linfield, they should be banned. But that's not the case with Ajax and Spurs, where they have large Jewish support.

Intifada

Skylinehead wrote: »

Context matters. In the case where it's clearly a political statement, i.e. Dundalk or Linfield, they should be banned. But that's not the case with Ajax and Spurs, where they have large Jewish support.

Did you have an issue with Nelson Mandela being commemorated across football grounds in the UK, and presumably Europe etc? What about the Remembrance Day poppy fascism that goes on each year?

tayto lover

Skylinehead wrote: »

Context matters. In the case where it's clearly a political statement, i.e. Dundalk or Linfield, they should be banned. But that's not the case with Ajax and Spurs, where they have large Jewish support.

Jewish links don't matter. It's to remind the other side that "you are the little boys" and we have the upperhand. Clearly.
If you ban the Palestine flag you have to ban the Israeli flag.

http://sarilab.wordpress.com/antiracism/

Skylinehead

Intifada wrote: »

Did you have an issue with Nelson Mandela being commemorated across football grounds in the UK, and presumably Europe etc? What about the Remembrance Day poppy fascism that goes on each year?

No, yes in that order. What's your point?

tayto lover wrote: »

Jewish links don't matter. It's to remind the other side that "you are the little boys" and we have the upperhand. Clearly.
If you ban the Palestine flag you have to ban the Israeli flag.

http://sarilab.wordpress.com/antiracism/

The "other side"? I don't think you're understanding the context at all here, the Ajax and Spurs fans have nothing to do with the conflict - there is no other side where they're involved. Of course the Jewish links matter, or there wouldn't be a flag at all. That's a bizarre post.

tayto lover

Nothing bizarre about it at all.
What percentage of Spurs support claim Jewish heritage?

Intifada

Skylinehead wrote: »

No, yes in that order. What's your point?

Surely my point was obvious. How is it not political to commemorate one of the biggest political icons of our time? A convicted terrorist to boot.

Skylinehead

tayto lover wrote: »

Nothing bizarre about it at all.
What percentage of Spurs support claim Jewish heritage?

I don't know, go look it up. Are you actually denying that they have Jewish roots and are instead just Palestine haters?

Intifada wrote: »

Surely my point was obvious. How is it not political to commemorate one of the biggest political icons of our time? A convicted terrorist to boot.

Because there's not really a chance of any contention. Nobody is going to say that a commemoration of Nelson Mandela is a bad thing, whereas making political statements during a war clearly causes rifts.

tayto lover

Skylinehead wrote: »

I don't know, go look it up. Are you actually denying that they have Jewish roots and are instead just Palestine haters?

No but the Jewish links are tenuous enough and at most 5% being generous.
It wouldn't compare to the numbers of flags or songs sang at their games tbh so there are obviously a lot of haters among them. Either way the Israeli flag is as much political as the Palestinian flag. If one is banned then both should be.



http://twohundredpercent.net/?p=24068&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+twohundredpercentnet%2FqLaC+(twohun

Intifada

Intifada wrote: »

Did you have an issue with Nelson Mandela being commemorated across football grounds in the UK, and presumably Europe etc?

I think that if a UEFA official decided that a particular banner referring to Mandela should be removed and repeatedly asked for it to happen and even had to threaten to stop the game so that his request would be taken seriously, well the club could expect a fine.

We seem to be in danger of overlooking that fairly important aspect and concentrating solely on the reasons for the decision, and which flag might be good and which flag might not in the mind of that particular official...which seems to me a fairly futile exercise. Only he could answer if he would do the same for an Israeli flag, or a Russian flag or a poppy, or a Mandela banner, or whatever.

Paz-CCFC

Skylinehead wrote: »

Context matters. In the case where it's clearly a political statement, i.e. Dundalk or Linfield, they should be banned. But that's not the case with Ajax and Spurs, where they have large Jewish support.

No they don't. Very few of the tens of thousands that bring these flags/sing "Superjoden" are actually Jewish. Nor did they ever have any real Jewish origins. The whole thing began to get a rise out of (albeit anti-Semitic) opposition supporters. They didn't give a ****e about the Jews, they just knew it'd wind up others. That, in itself, is fairly anti-Semitic. This has actually led to Ajax's Jewish support falling and their club officials encouraging the fans to distance themselves from this image.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/28/world/europe/28iht-jews.html?_r=0

Not saying that Dundalk shouldn't be punished. The fans who waved the flag stupidly admitted in a public statement that they did it for political reasons. And they should have complied with the requests of their own club not to wave the flag.

Skylinehead

tayto lover wrote: »

No but the Jewish links are tenuous enough and at most 5% being generous.

It wouldn't compare to the numbers of flags or songs sang at their games tbh so there are obviously a lot of haters among them. Either way the Israeli flag is as much political as the Palestinian flag. If one is banned then both should be.



http://twohundredpercent.net/?p=24068&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+twohundredpercentnet%2FqLaC+(twohun

You clearly know absolutely nothing about their roots, so why are you making things up? London had/has a huge Jewish population in the north where Spurs are located, they've faced anti-semitic abuse throughout their history in the 80s and do you know their nickname? Yids. But yeah, lets just dismiss them as Palestine haters (why? why are nobody else in England like that?)

Pro. F

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Most of the fans that bring a foreign flag to a game do so because they want to show their support for a player of their team from that country.

Everton is a great example of this, behind the goal they tend to have an entire range of flags all for players of the team from said countries.

Those are not political statements.

I had assumed the Everton sea of flags was contrived to obscure the fact that there is that one gobshíte flying his tricolour behind the goal at every home game. A few seasons ago there was just that one tricolour there every game and no other flag, now it's just part of a bigger collection. But that's beside the point.

Most fans have some reason for flying a national flag that is related to the particular game, but not all. Are British, American, Russian, French, Ukranian, etc, flags all banned from games not involving teams or players from those countries? Does UEFA publish guidance or definitions on this?

Intifada

Skylinehead wrote: »

Because there's not really a chance of any contention. Nobody is going to say that a commemoration of Nelson Mandela is a bad thing, whereas making political statements during a war clearly causes rifts.

But all this is essentially doing is bowing down to the relentless bullying that comes from the Israeli state. Just because one lot have a tantrum every time anybody expresses sympathy for the people they're trying to wipe out doesn't mean it's wrong to express that support.

I'm sure there were some racist white South Africans and other right wing proponents who weren't happy with Mandela being remembered as a hero. Why not bend over for those people too?

Paz-CCFC

Paz-CCFC wrote: »

Not saying that Dundalk shouldn't be punished. The fans who waved the flag stupidly admitted in a public statement that they did it for political reasons. And they should have complied with the requests of their own club not to wave the flag.

And that's pretty much it.

The lesson to be learned is that when clubs are repeatedly told to do something by an official who has the authority to tell them what to do, they should do it. We could be here forever pondering if that same official likes or hates the Israeli flag at Ajax matches or banners of Mandela.

Intifada

Pro. F wrote: »

I had assumed the Everton sea of flags was contrived to obscure the fact that there is that one gobshíte flying his tricolour behind the goal at every home game. A few seasons ago there was just that one tricolour there every game and no other flag, now it's just part of a bigger collection. But that's beside the point.

What makes him a gobshíte out of interest? Everton being one of the traditional English clubs with an Irish element and all.

Skylinehead

Intifada wrote: »

But all this is essentially doing is bowing down to the relentless bullying that comes from the Israeli state.

I'd like to see evidence of Israel bullying UEFA into handing out these fines, otherwise I'm just going to assume you're making it up.

Intifada

Paz-CCFC wrote: »

Not saying that Dundalk shouldn't be punished. The fans who waved the flag stupidly admitted in a public statement that they did it for political reasons. And they should have complied with the requests of their own club not to wave the flag.

I think it's disappointing and scary in equal measure that so many people are happy to settle on "you were told not to do it so don't do it".

Intifada

Intifada wrote: »

But all this is essentially doing is bowing down to the relentless bullying that comes from the Israeli state. Just because one lot have a tantrum every time anybody expresses sympathy for the people they're trying to wipe out doesn't mean it's wrong to express that support.

I'm sure there were some racist white South Africans and other right wing proponents who weren't happy with Mandela being remembered as a hero. Why not bend over for those people too?

As Paz succinctly said, the fans said it was political, the UEFA official thought so too, he repeatedly implored that it be removed and it wasn't.

There are presumably other threads and forums where people can get the Israeli conspiracy stuff and thoughts about Apartheid off their chests.

Intifada

Intifada wrote: »

I think it's disappointing and scary in equal measure that so many people are happy to settle on "you were told not to do it so don't do it".

I think it's a bit "disappointing", to use your word, that fans are asked to do something for their club, the club is warned repeatedly about the consequences, the match is nearly called off over it...and they just do it anyway. In football matches, when fans are "told not to do it" they shouldn't do it, whether it is getting on to the pitch or lighting flares or racist chanting or whatever they are asked to stop. If someone has a point to make about the Gaza Strip, well they are in the wrong venue for starters.

Pro. F

Intifada wrote: »

What makes him a gobshíte out of interest? Everton being one of the traditional English clubs with an Irish element and all.

His need to broadcast his nationality when supporting a club. It makes sense with the Old Firm, Hibs (in theory) and maybe a few others, since those clubs are defined by their nationalist politics, but Everton are not.

Intifada

Deleted User wrote: »

I think it's a bit "disappointing", to use your word, that fans are asked to do something for their club, the club is warned repeatedly about the consequences, the match is nearly called off over it...and they just do it anyway. In football matches, when fans are "told not to do it" they shouldn't do it, whether it is getting on to the pitch or lighting flares or racist chanting or whatever they are asked to stop. If someone has a point to make about the Gaza Strip, well they are in the wrong venue for starters.

I know mate, that was the point I responded to.

tayto lover

Skylinehead wrote: »

You clearly know absolutely nothing about their roots, so why are you making things up? London had/has a huge Jewish population in the north where Spurs are located, they've faced anti-semitic abuse throughout their history in the 80s and do you know their nickname? Yids. But yeah, lets just dismiss them as Palestine haters (why? why are nobody else in England like that?)

You clearly didn't read the article before you typed that for sure. I didn't make the article up either. Plenty more articles written on it too. Keep your temper.

tayto lover

Deleted User wrote: »

And that's pretty much it.

The lesson to be learned is that when clubs are repeatedly told to do something by an official who has the authority to tell them what to do, they should do it. We could be here forever pondering if that same official likes or hates the Israeli flag at Ajax matches or banners of Mandela.

The lesson learned is that only SOME clubs are told and only some flags seem to cause offence so why not others?

Pro. F

Deleted User wrote: »

And that's pretty much it.

The lesson to be learned is that when clubs are repeatedly told to do something by an official who has the authority to tell them what to do, they should do it. We could be here forever pondering if that same official likes or hates the Israeli flag at Ajax matches or banners of Mandela.

There are also lessons to be learned about how poor UEFA are at organising the sport, how obscure their rules are and how unfair and disproportionate their fines are on small clubs. But lets ignore those lessons so we can look cool and contrarian.

Pro. F

Pro. F wrote: »

But lets ignore those lessons so we can look cool and contrarian.

Who is trying to look "cool and contrarian"?

Pro. F

Deleted User wrote: »

Who is trying to look "cool and contrarian"?

You, I was obviously talking about you.

Pro. F

Pro. F wrote: »

You, I was obviously talking about you.

Is the topic now me?

Wow, I am flattered!

Sure let's talk about me so. I thought it was about flags at a Dundalk game!

We could talk about you too. Do you do many psychoanalyses of anonymous posters on football forums? Or is it only when you're a teeny little bit rattled?

Pro. F

Deleted User wrote: »

Is the topic now me?

Wow, I am flattered!

Sure let's talk about me so. I thought it was about flags at a Dundalk game!

We could talk about you too. Do you do many psychoanalyses of anonymous posters on football forums? Or is it only when you're a teeny little bit rattled?

Ah yes, making any criticism of you and your posts in the topic means that I am making the topic all about you and doing psychoanalysis. Of course I am.

Pro. F

Pro. F wrote: »

Ah yes, making any criticism of you and your posts in the topic means that I am making the topic all about you and doing psychoanalysis. Of course I am.

So even though you have no idea about me, you think criticising me as opposed to my posts is legitimate?

Fair enough, I guess the www has all types. Look, I'm flattered and all that, but relax and try getting back to the topic.

Pro. F

Deleted User wrote: »

So even though you have no idea about me, you think criticising me as opposed to my posts is legitimate?

Fair enough, I guess the www has all types. Look, I'm flattered and all that, but relax and try getting back to the topic.

I'm criticising what you have expressed in your posts. If you had wanted to stay on topic you could have responded to the point I made about what lessons can be learned about UEFA from this episode. Instead you went emo about the fact that I criticised you a bit.

red sean

Yawn!

CSF

This discussion has really achieved some serious longevity, hadn't realised it had been going on all the while since I last seen it.

Pro. F

Pro. F wrote: »

I'm criticising what you have expressed in your posts.

But not just that, you're criticising me. Sure you said so yourself.

Pro. F wrote: »

Ah yes, making any criticism of you...

Pro. F wrote: »

I criticised you a bit.

You have to concede that's a bit silly, cos you don't know me. But I appreciate you were a little annoyed about my stance so maybe a little red mist descended. And pointing that out is not "going emo" at all.

So that someone who thinks UEFA have applied their rules and that's kinda the end of it is "contrarian". I would have thought those objecting to the rule application might be better described as contrarian.

mark_jmc

slightly off topic but I was watching Juventus V Roma live last night and saw a palestinian flag in the crowd

blingrhino

ffs ! how is this thread still going :eek:

Pro. F

Deleted User wrote: »

But not just that, you're criticising me. Sure you said so yourself.





You have to concede that's a bit silly, cos you don't know me. But I appreciate you were a little annoyed about my stance so maybe a little red mist descended. And pointing that out is not "going emo" at all.

So that someone who thinks UEFA have applied their rules and that's kinda the end of it is "contrarian". I would have thought those objecting to the rule application might be better described as contrarian.

I'll be more precise since this is causing such an issue for you.

I was criticising you as you have expressed yourself on this thread. It was a mild criticism. Get the fúck over it.

tayto lover

mark_jmc wrote: »

slightly off topic but I was watching Juventus V Roma live last night and saw a palestinian flag in the crowd

Big fines probably but hardly if it was an Israeli flag or will it just die now as the "war" is over.

ArmaniJeanss

tayto lover wrote: »

Big fines probably but hardly if it was an Israeli flag or will it just die now as the "war" is over.

Why would it be 'big fines' for the Palestinian flag in this game (Juve v Roma)?

tayto lover

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Why would it be 'big fines' for the Palestinian flag in this game (Juve v Roma)?

Because they displayed the flag. They don't seem to like that flag at soccer games.

ArmaniJeanss

tayto lover wrote: »

Because they displayed the flag. They don't seem to like that flag at soccer games.

You understand that different matches have different governing bodies, and that a domestic Roma v Juve game won't have a UEFA observer, and will have a set of rules on such matters likely different to the rules for UEFA games?

tayto lover

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

You understand that different matches have different governing bodies, and that a domestic Roma v Juve game won't have a UEFA observer, and will have a set of rules on such matters likely different to the rules for UEFA games?

Forgot about that. Makes it even more ridiculous that one crowd may allow it and the other fine for it.

Pro. F

Pro. F wrote: »

Get the fúck over it.

Is swearing a good example of what you call "going emo"? I think I already said relax, tis only an anonymous forum. No need for the character analysis, the swearing and so on.

Now, when you're calm you might address my last post. Surely "contrarian" would best describe those objecting to the application of the rules as being harsh or unfair? It seems a bit unusual to describe those who are not objecting as much as "contrarian", no?

Pro. F

Deleted User wrote: »

Is swearing a good example of what you call "going emo"? I think I already said relax, tis only an anonymous forum. No need for the character analysis, the swearing and so on.

Swearing is no indication of whether somebody is relaxed or not. There was no character analysis, just some mild criticism of you. You made an issue of it.

Deleted User wrote: »

Now, when you're calm you might address my last post. Surely "contrarian" would best describe those objecting to the application of the rules as being harsh or unfair? It seems a bit unusual to describe those who are not objecting as much as "contrarian", no?

Your understanding of the word "contrarian" is incorrect.