Dundalk fined €18,000 by UEFA over Palestinian Flags

hjkl

john why wrote: »

Where is this?

Ajax afaik.

partyguinness

tayto lover wrote: »

White Hart Lane, Spurs ground I think.

Of course they are just innocently celebrating their Jewish roots. Pure coincidence and nothing whatsoever to do with the Gaza conflict....:rolleyes:

Point still applies to Ajax...

hjkl

tayto lover wrote: »

White Hart Lane, Spurs ground I think.

No it's not. Where did you get that from?

john why

frimpong wrote: »

Ajax afaik.

Do Ajax have a big Jewish following

Talisman

john why wrote: »

Where is this?

AJAX Amsterdam

Skylinehead

The fine is massively disproportionate (do they take revenue into account?) and UEFA could certainly be more consistent in their application, but it's clearly a political statement.

Oat23

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

This seems ridiculous. I can't understand the reasoning at all.

That'll really hurt Dundalk as well. I'd guess that Dundalk get less than 2000 supporters per game at an average of around 15 quid per ticket. Less costs, that fine is probably the equivalent of 1 home game profits from ticket sales.

Would United have been fined half a mill? I doubt it.

I have no idea what kind of turnover Dundalk have, but lets just say it is €1m per season. €18k would be around 2% of their turnover. The question is, would UEFA fine United 2% of their turnover if a few fans defied their rep and flew Palestinian flags?

2% of United's turnover is around €7m.

A Dub in Glasgo

Skylinehead wrote: »

but it's clearly a political statement.

The fine certainly is

Talisman

john why wrote: »

Do Ajax have a big Jewish following

Their old stadium, De Meer Stadion was in the Jewish area of the city.

Skylinehead

Oat23 wrote: »

I have no idea what kind of turnover Dundalk have, but lets just say it is €1m per season. €18k would be around 2% of their turnover. The question is, would UEFA fine United 2% of their turnover if a few fans defied their rep and flew Palestinian flags?

2% of United's turnover is around €7m.

I get the feeling it would still be 18k, from the pathetic racism fines handed out over the years to much bigger clubs.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

The fine certainly is

Conspiracy forums thataway ->

A Dub in Glasgo

Skylinehead wrote: »

Conspiracy forums thataway ->

Really? so what do you call the application of fines for some flags but not others?

partyguinness

john why wrote: »

Do Ajax have a big Jewish following

yes

Skylinehead

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Really? so what do you call the application of fines for some flags but not others?

I already said, inconsistency. Do you really believe UEFA are a pro-Israeli organisation? It has absolutely nothing to do with them.

When's that Ajax one from actually?

My name is URL

Skylinehead wrote: »

Conspiracy forums thataway ->

The fine is a political statement. You regularly see Israeli flags flown at White Heart Lane and Ajax's stadium yet they are never fined for it.

Singling out the Palestinian flag and fining clubs when their supporters fly it is absurd. Would the same have happened if any other flag of the world were flown at the match? If fines and accusations of political statements are going to be handed out whenever a national flag is flown at a football game then they may as well just ban football outright.

I'd expect Dundalk to appeal this idiotic fine, and there's a good chance their appeal would be successful

partyguinness wrote: »

yes

They have no more of a Jewish following than any other Dutch side has. The only ties the club has to Judaism is that its old ground was located in a predominantly Jewish neighborhood.

Amirani

How exactly are UEFA able to confirm that there was no Palestinian nationals at the Dundalk game? Obviously it's unlikely, but if there was, would it still then be a political statement?

Completely ridiculous premise that waving the flag of a UN recognised country is deemed illegal by UEFA.

Skylinehead

My name is URL wrote: »

The fine is a political statement. You regularly see Israeli flags flown at White Heart Lane and Ajax's stadium yet they are never fined for it.

Surely it depends on the context of the flags being flown? I'd imagine the Israeli flag being shown at WHL is in connection to the Jewish roots of the club, whereas the Palestinian flag being flown is almost certainly a political statement, particularly in the last few months. Although I'm not sure how you'd prove that. Like I said, there's massive inconsistencies in UEFA in the application of fines, which is nothing new.

Diego Simeone wrote: »

How exactly are UEFA able to confirm that there was no Palestinian nationals at the Dundalk game? Obviously it's unlikely, but if there was, would it still then be a political statement.

That is an interesting point actually - surely UEFA would have to prove that, which is impractical.

.jacksparrow.

Ridiculous, so people can't have an opinion and express them anymore?

Fascism nearly.

Hammer Archer

At a Spurs Europa League game a few seasons ago:

No fine, obviously.

michael999999

Will united get fined for waving a white flag with the last 12 months

A Dub in Glasgo

michael999999 wrote: »

Will united get fined for waving a white flag with the last 12 months

Only if it has a red triangle and black and green strips as well as the white

dundalkfc10

Their was one behind the goals which was taken down before kick off

The lads who had the flag then had another one on a poll in front of the shed. They were asked before the game to stop waving the flags, They refused. Chairman and Uefa offical had to come over and chairman pleaded with them to stop. They did but on 3 occassions during the game, the flag was waved for about 30 seconds

Thats why they are getting fined. They were asked to stop and didnt! The Petrol man from the FAI (cant say his name for legal reasons) is behind this group of lads and a good few wont be back in oriel park again. The letters have been sent out to some already

Part of the fine is also for not ensuring nobody was standing behind the goals.

The breakdown of the €18000 should be known early this week

Augmerson

****ing lousy.

NoelJ

If you didn't like a club in Ireland you could easily go and wave a palestinian flag there each game. It'd really affect them.

Kirby

If they've any sense they will refuse to pay it and challenge it legally.

Augmerson

Was it because it was a Europa League game that they got in this ****e?

RoyalCelt

No sympathy from me. A small group of Dundalk fans definitely like to make political statements that should be left out of sport. I remember at a match a few years ago at a Dundalk match a group of supporters were chanting hezbollah, hezbollah, hezbollah...

Hopefully this will be a lesson learned but I do agree bigger clubs with bigger turnovers need to get much bigger fines for similar incidents.

As someone else pointed out it wasn't just for having the flag. They were warned and ignored it. Only themselves to blame.

CSF

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Ridiculous, so people can't have an opinion and express them anymore?

Fascism nearly.

They can. UEFA aren't required to give them a platform (their continental competition) to do so though.

That's not saying I agree with the fine, I don't. But to say that people are entitled to express whatever opinion they want in whatever way they want on private property (I realise Dundalk are the owners yes but they're competing in UEFA competition) is well off the mark.

People are not entitled to express their pro-Israel ideas in my home. I am well entitled to stop them from doing so. This would not be me denying them free speech, merely denying them a venue.

CSF

RoyalCelt wrote: »

No sympathy from me. A small group of Dundalk fans definitely like to make political statements that should be left out of sport. I remember at a match a few years ago at a Dundalk match a group of supporters were chanting hezbollah, hezbollah, hezbollah...

Hopefully this will be a lesson learned but I do agree bigger clubs with bigger turnovers need to get much bigger fines for similar incidents.

As someone else pointed out it wasn't just for having the flag. They were warned and ignored it. Only themselves to blame.

I really don't think a flag alone should be a fineworthy political statement.

In the end, it is just the flag of an internationally recognised country. I'm not ignoring context, but without an accompanying banner or songs it's an innocent enough gesture that should have been overlooked.

RoyalCelt

CSF wrote: »

I really don't think a flag alone should be a fineworthy political statement.

In the end, it is just the flag of an internationally recognised country. I'm not ignoring context, but without an accompanying banner or songs it's an innocent enough gesture that should have been overlooked.

Considering they sing songs about hezbollah I wouldn't be surprised. Either way they were warned and ignored it. Can't say they weren't given a chance.

CSF

RoyalCelt wrote: »

Considering they sing songs about hezbollah I wouldn't be surprised. Either way they were warned and ignored it. Can't say they weren't given a chance.

I'm not saying they weren't given a chance, nor am I saying anything positive about the Dundalk fans.

I'm saying that what they were warned about and punished for wasn't worthy of the punishment.

Smithwicks Man

Would have no issue with this if an equally harsh punishment was dished out to teams in the leagues across Europe and Uefa competitions for racial abuse etc.

Fining Dundalk €18k for this yet UEFA only punish CSKA Moscow with a partial stadium closure for 1 game after Yaya Toure was racially abused in the CL and the Italian FA only fined Roma €50k for persistently racially abusing several Milan players in a league game last year.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/24749146
http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/blatter-slams-leniency-of-roma-racism-fine-29266374.html


The clubs with more turnover should get much harsher fines.

Omackeral

Skylinehead wrote: »

I already said, inconsistency. Do you really believe UEFA are a pro-Israeli organisation? It has absolutely nothing to do with them.

Well they do have Israel as a member state despite the fact they aren't geographically European. It's a political thing moreso. So if anything, uefa are the only ones that can are, without doubt, using political reasons when it comes to this. Not saying that the Palestine flag was there from a Gazan or anything, but the burden of proof lies with Uefa here. Dangerous precedent to be setting.

shanec1928

tayto lover wrote: »

White Hart Lane, Spurs ground I think.

It's Ajax it even says it in the hoardings in the middle of the picture

Omackeral

RoyalCelt wrote: »

No sympathy from me. A small group of Dundalk fans definitely like to make political statements that should be left out of sport. I remember at a match a few years ago at a Dundalk match a group of supporters were chanting hezbollah, hezbollah, hezbollah.

Are you sure that's what they were chanting? I've heard some of their younger lads chant "we are the Muja, the Mujahadeen" before but that's based on their little dirtbag hooligan elements nickname as far as I know. Maybe 10greenbottles or D10 can say?

jank

Arsenal banned national flags years ago because of this carry on, this time around it was because of Greek Cypriot and Turkish Cypriot flags being waved.
National flags are shown at football grounds for various reasons. Sometimes it's to show support to certain players e.g. Ivory Coast flags at Chelsea in support of Drogba, French flags at Old Trafford in support of Cantona.
Sometimes its to recognize a cultural link e.g. Spurs and Israel, Celtic and Ireland.
Sometimes they are waved to get a rise out of the opposition. Again Celtic/Rangers. In Italy Socialist emblems (Communist flags, Che Guevara portraits) are waved by left wing clubs and right wing emblems and flags by right wing clubs.. e.g. Roma and Lazio

I am sympathetic to the club but if UEFA officals asked the fans numerous times to stop showing that flag then they only have themselves to blame. What exactly was the purpose behind it? Dundalk FC have been to known for this kind of thing. If there is a rule specifically saying that no flags of a political nature can be shown then fair enough.

dundalkfc10

RoyalCelt wrote: »

Considering they sing songs about hezbollah I wouldn't be surprised. Either way they were warned and ignored it. Can't say they weren't given a chance.

Totally agree some fans were warned and ignored it (we all know who the ringleader is)

As for the "Hezbollah" Thats bull****!! Dundalk fans since I can remember going to the Shed chant "We are the Muja, The Mujahadeen" which is what members of the Shed like to call themselfs "The Muja" "Muja Army"
It has nothing got to do with "Hezbollah"

SteelyDanJalapeno

tayto lover wrote: »

White Hart Lane, Spurs ground I think.

It's not White Hart Lane, It's Ajax's stadium

jank

jank wrote: »

I am sympathetic to the club but if UEFA officals asked the fans numerous times to stop showing that flag then they only have themselves to blame.

That's pretty much it. Seems like a large fine, but if they were told again and again what did they think the outcome would be? The stewards should have gone in and just taken the flags away once UEFA made it clear that the flag should be removed. And all this talk about intent is wide of the mark, if fans do something that UEFA deem offensive or political, they don't have to find the fans and figure out if offence was meant. Intent is not part of the UEFA rule.

doncarlos

Omackeral wrote: »

Are you sure that's what they were chanting? I've heard some of their younger lads chant "we are the Muja, the Mujahadeen" before but that's based on their little dirtbag hooligan elements nickname as far as I know. Maybe 10greenbottles or D10 can say?

Goes back to the 80s believe it or not and it was a chant about the Afghan struggle against the Soviets that Dundalk fans related themselves with. Was an anti-establishment, we'll stand up to anybody chant. Dundalk was seen as a lawless hell-hole and chant was satire "you think we're that bad, we're worse!"

dundalkfc10

doncarlos wrote: »

Goes back to the 80s believe it or not and it was a chant about the Afghan struggle against the Soviets that Dundalk fans related themselves with. Was an anti-establishment, we'll stand up to anybody chant. Dundalk was seen as a lawless hell-hole and chant was satire "you think we're that bad, we're worse!"

Never knew the above, I would have started going in the 90's and it was chanted then, never asked myself why before, justy thought it was some silly thing.

As for the bit in bold, It kinda still is considering the Gardai are useless ****ers but thats a different topic.

Skinny Bond should have just taken the flags when he came over to them and gave them back after the game. To let them keep them was just stupid as Im sure he is aware the leaders of this group are a few sandwiches short of a picnic

NIMAN

... and a lot of the Provo's 'on the ru'n during the Troubles hid out in Dundalk.

RobertKK

How many Palestinian players were on the pitch?

My name is URL

RobertKK wrote: »

How many Palestinian players were on the pitch?

Why does that matter? There could well have been people of Palestinian origin in the crowd for all anyone knows. There are plenty living in Ireland after all.

There was no slogan on the flag. The same flag flies outside of the UN building in New York. UEFA are the ones that politicized it by acting on it.

No such action would have been taken if it were any other internationally recognized flag.

Dundalk would be mad to pay the fine. The should tell UEFA to piss off and wait to see what the reaction is. I doubt they'd be suspended without the shit really hitting the fan internationally.

My name is URL

My name is URL wrote: »

Dundalk would be mad to pay the fine. The should tell UEFA to piss off and wait to see what the reaction is. I doubt they'd be suspended without the shit really hitting the fan internationally.

How many other clubs have "told UEFA to piss off" and how did it work out?

What "s*** will hit the fan internationally" over a suspension? And what does that even mean, ambassadors withdrawn, pow wows between PMs?

I think the issue needs an injection of reality. UEFA call the shots, UEFA have rules, they said the rules were being broken, repeated warnings were given to the fans, they fined the club. I don't see any international ramifications over it. Clubs won't care about Dundalk, much less do anything of note. No clubs will withdraw from UEFA, Dundalk will raise the money and learn a very harsh lesson that when they are told to act, they must act.

tayto lover

Would waving a United States flag have had a similar fine imposed by EUFA?
Not on your Nellie. Joke.

jank

So its turning into one of 'those' threads...

My name is URL

Deleted User wrote: »

How many other clubs have "told UEFA to piss off" and how did it work out?

What "s*** will hit the fan internationally" over a suspension? And what does that even mean, ambassadors withdrawn, pow wows between PMs?

I think the issue needs an injection of reality. UEFA call the shots, UEFA have rules, they said the rules were being broken, repeated warnings were given to the fans, they fined the club. I don't see any international ramifications over it. Clubs won't care about Dundalk, much less do anything of note. No clubs will withdraw from UEFA, Dundalk will raise the money and learn a very harsh lesson that when they are told to act, they must act.

I can imagine supporters of other clubs bringing flags to matches. Are UEFA going to fine or suspend every club that does it?

What rule, specifically, did UEFA say was broken btw?

ArmaniJeanss

My name is URL wrote: »

Dundalk would be mad to pay the fine. The should tell UEFA to piss off and wait to see what the reaction is. I doubt they'd be suspended without the shit really hitting the fan internationally.

Fairly sure these fines get taken at source anyway. UEFA just reduce the Europa League payment due to the club.

dundalkfc10

My name is URL wrote: »

I can imagine supporters of other clubs bringing flags to matches. Are UEFA going to fine or suspend every club that does it?

What rule, specifically, did UEFA say was broken btw?

Dundalk FC can confirm that the club has been charged by the UEFA Control, Ethics and Disciplinary Committee.

These charges relate to Article 16 (2) of the Disciplinary Rules (relating to flags that have been deemed by UEFA to be inappropriate) and Article 45 UEFA Stadium Infrastructure (relating to the prohibition of standing supporters).

The total fine is €18,000 for these charges.

Dundalk FC have requested further information from UEFA on these charges before beginning any appeals process.

Dundalk FC will be making no further comment on this issue until it is fully resolved.

Omackeral

Would love to know what flags are deemed inappropriate by UEFA. Must look that one up.