Dundalk fined €18,000 by UEFA over Palestinian Flags

My name is URL

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

Dundalk FC can confirm that the club has been charged by the UEFA Control, Ethics and Disciplinary Committee.

These charges relate to Article 16 (2) of the Disciplinary Rules (relating to flags that have been deemed by UEFA to be inappropriate) and Article 45 UEFA Stadium Infrastructure (relating to the prohibition of standing supporters).

The total fine is €18,000 for these charges.

Dundalk FC have requested further information from UEFA on these charges before beginning any appeals process.

Dundalk FC will be making no further comment on this issue until it is fully resolved.

What an absolute joke. UEFA can deem an internationally recognised flag to be 'inappropriate' and people say Dundalk fans are the ones making a political point...

Madness

jank

My name is URL wrote: »

I can imagine supporters of other clubs bringing flags to matches. Are UEFA going to fine or suspend every club that does it?

What rule, specifically, did UEFA say was broken btw?

the use of gestures, words, objects or any other means to transmit any
message that is not fit for a sports event, in particular if it is of a political,
offensive or provocative nature;

http://www.uefa.org/MultimediaFiles/Download/Tech/uefaorg/General/01/81/94/48/1819448_DOWNLOAD.pdf

The flag was clearly political so thats that. Of course now people interpret this ruling in various ways to suit their own world view.

My name is URL

My name is URL wrote: »

I can imagine supporters of other clubs bringing flags to matches. Are UEFA going to fine or suspend every club that does it?

What rule, specifically, did UEFA say was broken btw?

No no, I just assume the stewards will take them away to avoid the fines. Which is what Dundalk should have done.

Bayern were also sanctioned for a banner that said "say no to racism, yes to Kosovo" and another banner with a homphobic reference - they got a partial closure of their stadium and a fine of €10k. No international fuss, no cries about one rule for some and another for others etc. etc., no big arguments about the recognition of Kosovo being legitimate

jank

My name is URL wrote: »

What an absolute joke. UEFA can deem an internationally recognised flag to be 'inappropriate' and people say Dundalk fans are the ones making a political point...

Madness

It was a political gesture and its not entirely true that the flag is 'internationally recognised' as if that makes a difference.

tayto lover

jank wrote: »

http://www.uefa.org/MultimediaFiles/Download/Tech/uefaorg/General/01/81/94/48/1819448_DOWNLOAD.pdf

The flag was clearly political so thats that. Of course now people interpret this ruling in various ways to suit their own world view.

The Israeli flag is just as political.
How much were Spurs and Ajax fined?

My name is URL

Deleted User wrote: »

No no, I just assume the stewards will take them away to avoid the fines. Which is what Dundalk should have done.

Bayern were also sanctioned for a banner that said "say no to racism, yes to Kosovo" and another banner with a homphobic reference - they got a partial closure of their stadium and a fine of €10k. No international fuss, no cries about one rule for some and another for others etc. etc., no big arguments about the recognition of Kosovo being legitimate

Apples and oranges. Banners and slogans ≠ national flags

kippy

partyguinness wrote: »

and yet in the UK, it's ok for the Poppy Day fetish to kick off every November in referenec to WWI British soldier deaths and plaster red emblems on jersey's...I guess it's because it's over??

It's ridiculous.
A few logical expansions.
1. How many wars are the UK/US in at any point in history?
2. When was the last time a US team or English team got fined for their respective flags being at at match?

A joke ruling and a crazy fine for a small club when you see what goes on elsewhere.

These footballing organisations are so far from reality.....

jank

tayto lover wrote: »

The Israeli flag is just as political.
How much were Spurs and Ajax fined?

Thanks for proving my point. The Israeli flag is the flag of the Israeli state to some, to others its {insert raving lunatic rants here}. Israel is also a full member of UEFA and its flag would be flying outside its head quarters.

Did Spurs/Ajax fly those flags at a UEFA sanctioned football match by the way?

My name is URL

My name is URL wrote: »

Apples and oranges. Banners and slogans ≠ national flags

Ah hardly apples and oranges.

Freedom of expression is freedom of expression. And the curbs on same pursuant to UEFA rules make no distinction at all between words and other visual representations. I mean if someone unveils a Celtic Cross in Italy (a perfectly legitimate symbol), everyone knows the racist aspect, there are no need for words. But again, even if someone had the excuse of genuinely meaning no offence and thinking it was fine, that excuse ended once they were told to remove it.

jank

My name is URL wrote: »

Apples and oranges. Banners and slogans ≠ national flags

ISIS also has a 'national' flag. Acceptable to fly that?

tayto lover

jank wrote: »

Thanks for proving my point. The Israeli flag is the flag of the Israeli state to some, to others its {insert raving lunatic rants here}. Israel is also a full member of UEFA and its flag would be flying outside its head quarters.

Did Spurs/Ajax fly those flags at a UEFA sanctioned football match by the way?

The Israeli flag is just as relevant as the Palestinian flag to any but the biased mind. Your point is stupid.

tayto lover

jank wrote: »

ISIS also has a 'national' flag. Acceptable to fly that?

Silly argument again as it's not a national flag. Not recognised by the UN either.

jank

tayto lover wrote: »

The Israeli flag is just as relevant as the Palestinian flag to any but the biased mind. Your point is stupid.

Is Palestine a member of UEFA? Answers on a postcard.

user2011

Thread has definitely become one of "those" threads not surprising when you see the posters.

I'm all for a fine but f**king €18,000 is just obscene make an example of the little clubs while the big clubs with racist chanting and sh!t get hit with 8,9,10 thousand €. I know which one I'd rather see/hear at football grounds.

Gbear

jank wrote: »

Is Palestine a member of UEFA? Answers on a postcard.

Lots of countries aren't in UEFA.

I can't see them dishing out a fine for flying a Canadian flag.

jank

tayto lover wrote: »

Silly argument again as it's not a national flag. Not recognised by the UN either.

The UN does not recognise flags afaik.

jank

Gbear wrote: »

Lots of countries aren't in UEFA.

I can't see them dishing out a fine for flying a Canadian flag.

Agreed but flying the Canadian flag would not be seen as a political gesture at this moment in time. That is the difference here that people are deliberately and wilfully ignoring.

tayto lover

jank wrote: »

Is Palestine a member of UEFA? Answers on a postcard.

Oddly enough they have a national football team but probably can't train because of the illegal bombardment by Israel. I'd say their pitch is in some condition too.


http://www.bdsmovement.net/2011/letter-to-platini-7377

http://www.uefa.com/friendlies/season=2012/matches/round=2000293/match=2009377/index.html

http://www.fifa.com/associations/association=ple/ranking/gender=m/

user2011

And people willfully putting the Palestine flag in the same bracket as f**king IS

jank

jank wrote: »

Is Palestine a member of UEFA? Answers on a postcard.

tayto lover wrote: »

Oddly enough they have a national football team ....

So that is a NO, Palestine is not a member of UEFA, therefore there IS a difference between the Israel and Palestine.

aodea

No sure how this is any differnt to barca fans flying catalonia national flags and singing independece independence independence. maybe barca are fined and beacuse its 18.000 euro we hear nothing about it.

Seems odd that you would fine fans for flying a flag as a sign of support.

kippy

jank wrote: »

So that is a NO, Palestine is not a member of UEFA, therefore there IS a difference between the Israel and Palestine.

Brazil, Argentina, and many other countries aren't members of UEFA either, I think you'll see flags of those countries appear at games all over the shop on the occassion...........

tayto lover

jank wrote: »

So that is a NO, Palestine is not a member of UEFA, therefore there IS a difference between the Israel and Palestine.

Yes indeed there's a difference.
One is supported by the U.S. and one is not and the rest are afraid to offend the U.S. Simple really.
I wonder if those little lads murdered while playing football on the beach has aspirations to represent their country in a World Cup or were they waving their national flag at the time.

kippy

aodea wrote: »

No sure how this is any differnt to barca fans flying catalonia national flags and singing independece independence independence. maybe barca are fined and beacuse its 18.000 euro we hear nothing about it.

Seems odd that you would fine fans for flying a flag as a sign of support.

Probably the best example of teams that get away with this type of thing week in/week out.

jank

kippy wrote: »

Brazil, Argentina, and many other countries aren't members of UEFA either, I think you'll see flags of those countries appear at games all over the shop on the occassion...........

You may be right however, again for the 3rd time flying those flags is NOT a political message while flying the Palestinian flag at this moment in time clearly is (not one person has disputed this), therefore they are in breach of the rules. FFS they were told 3 times by UEFA to take it down but refused and now people are bitching and moaning and coming up with all types of false equivalencies.

jank

tayto lover wrote: »

Yes indeed there's a difference.
One is supported by the U.S. and one is not and the rest are afraid to offend the U.S. Simple really.
I wonder if those little lads murdered while playing football on the beach has aspirations to represent their country in a World Cup or were they waving their national flag at the time.

Mate, seriously, you are the only person here trying to bring politics into this when you have been clearly been beaten on the facts regards the issue itself, resorting to posts like the above. This is a soccer forum, so take the above somewhere else.

kippy

jank wrote: »

You may be right however, again for the 3rd time flying those flags is NOT a political message while flying the Palestinian flag at this moment in time clearly is (not one person has disputed this), therefore they are in breach of the rules. FFS they were told 3 times by UEFA to take it down but refused and now people are bitching and moaning and coming up with all types of false equivalencies.

So flying the Argentina flag at a ground in Engerland cannot be taken as a "political message"? (hinting at the Falklands here)
Or indeed the example used above in relation to Barcelona?

Gbear

jank wrote: »

Agreed but flying the Canadian flag would not be seen as a political gesture at this moment in time. That is the difference here that people are deliberately and wilfully ignoring.

That's a completely arbitrary distinction though.

It seems plain enough for something like Palestine, given that it's in the news, but, given the lack of action against other clubs for other political statements - pro-republican, pro-Basque, pro-Catalan, pro-Israeli, one can only assume that some clubs are above these laws and only certain kinds of political statements are unacceptable.

UEFA are deciding to be anally retentive in their application of this law for Dundalk because they're trivial enough as a club, because UEFA is pro-Isreal or a mixture of both.

jank

The Barca one is interesting however, one would have to ask the other clubs about that really especially Real Madrid. However, they were told to take it down and needless to say there were consequences.

tayto lover

jank wrote: »

Mate, seriously, you are the only person here trying to bring politics into this when you have been clearly been beaten on the facts regards the issue itself, resorting to posts like the above. This is a soccer forum, so take the above somewhere else.

Stop digging.
You lost the argument a long time ago.
The very reason there is a fine is because of politics yet you can't or refuse to see that.

kippy

jank wrote: »

The Barca one is interesting however, one would have to ask the other clubs about that really especially Real Madrid. However, they were told to take it down and needless to say there were consequences.

The point is, they shouldnt have been asked to take down the flag in the first place.
If they are going to apply this rule it has to be done fairly.

A Dub in Glasgo

The really funny thing here is that at the current time, flying the Palestinian flag is more about empathy than politics but the bureaucrats at UEFA (& here) would not spot the difference!

dreamers75

Dundalk FC fans (in common with many other fans throughout sport in general and the UEFA area in particular) have displayed flags of Palestine in solidarity with 4 children murdered playing football on a beach in Palestine. Palestine is a FIFA affiliated nation and the flag is the flag of a sovereign nation. In Ireland citizens have a Constitutional right of freedom of expression. This right does not vanish at a football turnstile. There are unsubstantiated reports that UEFA are seeking to victimise this small club for displaying these flags with a gigantic 18,000 euro fine. Dundalk fans involved have sought and got legal advice on this matter and a number of fans have now pledged to fight any UEFA infringement of their fundamental Constitutional right to free expression should it materialise.
Dundalk fans involved also call upon fans of other clubs to make their views on this matter known to UEFA and to defend the basic rights of fellow fans to express their rights within the bounds of the law in this way.
If football is to remain a game of the people this alleged threatened bullying of a small club by UEFA must be faced down and Dundalk fans involved pledge to do so at whatever personal cost.
This post is from dundalk shedside army (ssa)

SSA statement.

Gbear

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

The really funny thing here is that at the current time, flying the Palestinian flag is more about empathy than politics but the bureaucrats at UEFA (& here) would not spot the difference!

That's the core stupidity in calling something as vague as a flag a political statement.

If I flew a flag saying "Support Cancer Research" it's not me trying to score political points against the government for underfunding healthcare.

Richard Hillman

Using those kids that were killed on the beach is not going to pluck up any support. Those flags have been there well before that. It is very tasteless IMO.

CSF

Someone needs to advise these lads that their right to freedom of expression is not absolute before they look really really silly

dreamers75

dreamers75 wrote: »

SSA statement.

Ha.

"Dear SSA,

If you want to do the club a favour, put money raised towards the fine rather than legal fees. After all, if Celtic and Bayern and other clubs with armies of lawyers had to cough up, a challenge is probably a long shot.

PS - the Irish Constitution does not actually mean that Irish clubs get some free pass when it comes to observing the UEFA rules they accepted"

Gbear

CSF wrote: »

Someone needs to advise these lads that their right to freedom of expression is not absolute before they look really really silly

UEFA can have whatever rules they want. Nobody's forcing Dundalk to be part of them.

And anyway, we don't really have freedom of speech in Ireland.

jank

kippy wrote: »

The point is, they shouldnt have been asked to take down the flag in the first place.
If they are going to apply this rule it has to be done fairly.

Therefore people will be using football matches to make political gestures from thereon in. Not something I would like to see to be honest.

kippy

jank wrote: »

Therefore people will be using football matches to make political gestures from thereon in. Not something I would like to see to be honest.

Me neither but as I said, if you are going to do this, you need to make your definition of a political gesture watertight (good luck with that one) and enforce it at every ground in a fair manner.
This is not happening at present from what I can see so the rule itself needs to be called into question.

tayto lover

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Using those kids that were killed on the beach is not going to pluck up any support. Those flags have been there well before that. It is very tasteless IMO.

So have the Israeli flags at Spurs and Ajax grounds so again where are the records of their fines?

dan1895

A quick google search brings up that this isn't an uncommon occurrence






and just for a bit of balance

dundalkfc10

dreamers75 wrote: »

SSA statement.

Safe to say everyone knows who wrote that statement!

Richard Hillman

tayto lover wrote: »

So have the Israeli flags at Spurs and Ajax grounds so again where are the records of their fines?

WHAT????

I said the flags were there well before the beach incident. Why are they saying it was in support of those kids. I dont have a fracking clue what you are on about with Israel, Spurs and Ajax

tayto lover

Richard Hillman wrote: »

WHAT????

I said the flags were there well before the beach incident. Why are they saying it was in support of those kids. I dont have a fracking clue what you are on about with Israel, Spurs and Ajax

I don't know why the flags were there but I support their right to have them. I have see Palestinian flags at many venues over the last 50 years. The injustice in Gaza and the West Bank did not start a month ago.

As regards the Israeli flags at Spurs and Ajax I asked if those clubs were fined by EUFA and if not, why not?

dan1895

dan1895 wrote: »

A quick google search brings up that this isn't an uncommon occurrence

I'm sure it isn't.

But saying other clubs do not respect the rule is no defence. I have also seen flares at games, yet I know that a club can be fined for them. If a UEFA official repeatedly asked for use of flares to stop but they persisted, I would expect a fine.

tayto lover

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm sure it isn't.

But saying other clubs do not respect the rule is no defence. I have also seen flares at games, yet I know that a club can be fined for them. If a UEFA official repeatedly asked for use of flares to stop but they persisted, I would expect a fine.

Indeed BUT the point is EUFA officials did nothing about flares or indeed Israeli flags.
Just the Palestinian flag.
I wonder why?

kippy

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm sure it isn't.

But saying other clubs do not respect the rule is no defence. I have also seen flares at games, yet I know that a club can be fined for them. If a UEFA official repeatedly asked for use of flares to stop but they persisted, I would expect a fine.

Two key items.
1. The "rule" is not at all clear, nor is it implemented fairly - that's a pretty big issue.
2. The fine handed out is crazy in respect of revenues at the club and far in excess, in relative terms, to many other fines handed out in the past few years for other issues.

tayto lover

tayto lover wrote: »

Indeed BUT the point is EUFA officials did nothing about flares or indeed Israeli flags.
Just the Palestinian flag.
I wonder why?

Do you think it's some conspiracy, maybe the Jews control UEFA like they control Hollywood *?

Or maybe there is a simpler explanation, like the flags weren't waved around when a UEFA official was present and repeatedly asked it to stop.

I'd say the second explanation is likelier, what about you?

* irony, tongue in cheek etc. etc.

tayto lover

Deleted User wrote: »

Do you think it's some conspiracy, maybe the Jews control UEFA like they control Hollywood *?

Or maybe there is a simpler explanation, like the flags weren't waved around when a UEFA official was present and repeatedly asked it to stop.

I'd say the second explanation is likelier, what about you?

* irony, tongue in cheek etc. etc.

I don't care why they were waved BUT I do believe in fair play so again why were other clubs not fined for displaying Israeli flags or is that question too hard for you and your pals? Why just Palestinian flags?