Dundalk fined €18,000 by UEFA over Palestinian Flags

dundalkfc10

tayto lover wrote: »

I don't care why they were waved BUT I do believe in fair play so again why were other clubs not fined for displaying Israeli flags or is that question too hard for you and your pals? Why just Palestinian flags?

Because clubs can only get punished/fined if the Uefa offical includes it in his match report!

tayto lover

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

Because clubs can only get punished/fined if the Uefa offical includes it in his match report!

So why are they being selective? Why only Palestinian flags?

tayto lover

tayto lover wrote: »

I don't care why they were waved BUT I do believe in fair play so again why were other clubs not fined for displaying Israeli flags or is that question too hard for you and your pals? Why just Palestinian flags?

For "me and my pals"?

Relax.

It's a football site. You don't know me. Or my pals.

Can you give one instance, from Spurs, Ajax, wherever, when a UEFA official was (i) present (ii) saw a flag (iii) asked that it be removed and (iv) that was ignored but (v) the club wasn't fined. Just one. Thanks.

Richard Hillman

tayto lover wrote: »

I don't know why the flags were there but I support their right to have them. I have see Palestinian flags at many venues over the last 50 years. The injustice in Gaza and the West Bank did not start a month ago.

As regards the Israeli flags at Spurs and Ajax I asked if those clubs were fined by EUFA and if not, why not?

Why are you asking me? I'm not UEFA and I dont understand why you are mentioning it.

All I said was that Dundalk fans were claiming that the flags were in support of the children that died on the beach. They have been waving those flags for years before that incident. I find it very crass that they are lying about why the flags were there and using those children dieing to get out of a fine.

Its nothing about the rights and wrongs of waving Palestinian flags. Its about lying about the reason they had them there.

kippy

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Why are you asking me? I'm not UEFA and I dont understand why you are mentioning it.

All I said was that Dundalk fans were claiming that the flags were in support of the children that died on the beach. They have been waving those flags for years before that incident. I find it very crass that they are lying about why the flags were there and using those children dieing to get out of a fine.

Its nothing about the rights and wrongs of waving Palestinian flags. Its about lying about the reason they had them there.

All that is pretty much irrelevant tbh.

Pro. F

Would be really interesting to see what is on UEFA's list of inappropriate flags. Can't find anything about it on their site or in their regulations.

Richard Hillman

kippy wrote: »

All that is pretty much irrelevant tbh.

It is very relevent actually. If their only defence to UEFA is saying that they were to support those children then it is completly false. I dont understand why they had to lie about it. If they really have such strong political beliefs then back it the eff up.

If they said that the flags were there for ages, they believe in the Palestinian cause, other clubs have done it and nothing has happened to them, then fair enough. There was no need to lie about the reasons why the flags were there and especially using that issue of all issues to start telling fibs. It is so tasteless.

tayto lover

Deleted User wrote: »

For "me and my pals"?

Relax.

It's a football site. You don't know me. Or my pals.

Can you give one instance, from Spurs, Ajax, wherever, when a UEFA official was (i) present (ii) saw a flag (iii) asked that it be removed and (iv) that was ignored but (v) the club wasn't fined. Just one. Thanks.

I can't and that's why i'm asking but I presume there is a EUFA official at all these games so I am still asking why nothing was done at these other venues where Israeli and other flags were flown. Smacks of selective abuse by EUFA because it's a Palestinian flag and they don't want to offend the big powers.

So why only at Dundalk and why only Palestinian flags?

Pro. F

Pro. F wrote: »

Would be really interesting to see what is on UEFA's list of inappropriate flags. Can't find anything about it on their site or in their regulations.

I presume the scale of what might be deemed political or offensive is so wide that they can't come up with a list. One recalls when Robbie Fowler was fined for referring to striking dockers in Liverpool, I doubt there was any list with "supporting Liverpool dockers" on it.

tayto lover

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Why are you asking me? I'm not UEFA and I dont understand why you are mentioning it.

All I said was that Dundalk fans were claiming that the flags were in support of the children that died on the beach. They have been waving those flags for years before that incident. I find it very crass that they are lying about why the flags were there and using those children dieing to get out of a fine.

Its nothing about the rights and wrongs of waving Palestinian flags. Its about lying about the reason they had them there.

I'm not concerned with their reasons at all even if I do support the Palestinian cause.
I'm concerned why it's just Dundalk and Palestinian flags.
Why no action about Israeli flags at other grounds? Simple question.

tayto lover

tayto lover wrote: »

I'm concerned why it's just Dundalk and Palestinian flags.
Why no action about Israeli flags at other grounds? Simple question.

It's not just Dundalk though.

Other clubs in other countries have been fined under the exact same provisions. Including British and German clubs. And recently the Argentinian national side by FIFA.

tayto lover

Deleted User wrote: »

I presume the scale of what might be deemed political or offensive is so wide that they can't come up with a list. One recalls when Robbie Fowler was fined for referring to striking dockers in Liverpool, I doubt there was any list with "supporting Liverpool dockers" on it.

Are Israeli flags, U.S. flags, Russian flags etc etc on that list?
I seriously doubt it, so why only Palestinian flags?

tayto lover

Deleted User wrote: »

It's not just Dundalk though.

Other clubs in other countries have been fined under the exact same provisions. Including British and German clubs. And recently the Argentinian national side by FIFA.

For flying/displaying a Palestinian flag?
Links please.

Pro. F

Deleted User wrote: »

I presume the scale of what might be deemed political or offensive is so wide that they can't come up with a list. One recalls when Robbie Fowler was fined for referring to striking dockers in Liverpool, I doubt there was any list with "supporting Liverpool dockers" on it.

If the definition is so broad as to be meaningless then an appeal would seem easy enough to win. The only question then would be can Dundalk afford to pursue an appeal.

losthorizon

jank wrote: »

Agreed but flying the Canadian flag would not be seen as a political gesture at this moment in time. That is the difference here that people are deliberately and wilfully ignoring.

There are Canadian soldiers in Mali. That conflict is ongoing. They are there as part of operation Serval supporting French troops.

Dundalk were fined because the Palestinian flag is deemed political and the conflict is ongoing. Canada has taken a political decision and intervened in Mali. No real difference.

However I would take a totally different stance if these few people chanted anti jewish slogans or engaged in racial taunts which they didnt. Thats totally different.

losthorizon

Deleted User wrote: »

It's not just Dundalk though.

Other clubs in other countries have been fined under the exact same provisions. Including British and German clubs. And recently the Argentinian national side by FIFA.

Could we have links there please Conor.

losthorizon

losthorizon wrote: »

Could we have links there please Conor.

Celtic fined 50k for a banner depicting Bobby Sands.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/celtic-fined-50k-for-display-of-illicit-bobby-sands-banner-29836990.html

Bayern fined and had part of stadium closed following banners referring to "gay" Arsenal and expressing support for Kosovo.

http://www.bavarianfootballworks.com/2014/3/25/5544234/uefa-hand-bayern-munich-partial-stadium-ban-fine-over-gay-gunners-banner

Argentina fined and reprimanded for displaying a banner referring to the Falklands.

http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/organisation/footballgovernance/news/newsid=2408115/index.html

dundalkfc10

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Why are you asking me? I'm not UEFA and I dont understand why you are mentioning it.

All I said was that Dundalk fans were claiming that the flags were in support of the children that died on the beach. They have been waving those flags for years before that incident. I find it very crass that they are lying about why the flags were there and using those children dieing to get out of a fine.

Its nothing about the rights and wrongs of waving Palestinian flags. Its about lying about the reason they had them there.

There is one flag that does be behind the goals most of the time has a small palestine flag on it along with other stuff, Celtic crest is def one dunno wat the other is

The flag the Shedsidearmy had in the shed was not the same flag

tayto lover

Deleted User wrote: »

Celtic fined 50k for a banner depicting Bobby Sands.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/celtic-fined-50k-for-display-of-illicit-bobby-sands-banner-29836990.html

Bayern fined and had part of stadium closed following banners referring to "gay" Arsenal and expressing support for Kosovo.

http://www.bavarianfootballworks.com/2014/3/25/5544234/uefa-hand-bayern-munich-partial-stadium-ban-fine-over-gay-gunners-banner

Argentina fined and reprimanded for displaying a banner referring to the Falklands.

http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/organisation/footballgovernance/news/newsid=2408115/index.html

Good but none of them are National flags. Now again why no action regarding Israeli flags? Why only Palestinian flags?

tayto lover

tayto lover wrote: »

Good but none of them are National flags. Now again why no action regarding Israeli flags? Why only Palestinian flags?

That was answered above.

You have yet to cite one match at which a UEFA official was present, asked for a flag to be taken down, and it was still displayed, and no sanction issued.

The statement also helpfully clarified that the flag was indeed displayed to comment on the current conflict.

losthorizon

Deleted User wrote: »

Celtic fined 50k for a banner depicting Bobby Sands.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/celtic-fined-50k-for-display-of-illicit-bobby-sands-banner-29836990.html

Bayern fined and had part of stadium closed following banners referring to "gay" Arsenal and expressing support for Kosovo.

http://www.bavarianfootballworks.com/2014/3/25/5544234/uefa-hand-bayern-munich-partial-stadium-ban-fine-over-gay-gunners-banner

Argentina fined and reprimanded for displaying a banner referring to the Falklands.

http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/organisation/footballgovernance/news/newsid=2408115/index.html

The Argentina Banner was actually held up by the Argentina team itself not the fans!

The Bayern fine was just as much for "gay" bashing as for the Kosovo flag. Interestingly though the fine was only €10,000. Pittence for Bayern. Ireland recognizes Kosovan independence as do a whole hose of European nations. I dont see how UEFA can enforce that. I believe Germany recognizes that nations independence as well. In fact we have Police and troops there.

The Celtic one isnt relevant tbh.

http://footballrefereeing.blogspot.ie/2014/07/europa-league-201415-referee_14.html#.U_t84_ldXh4

BTW the UEFA delegate was French.

tayto lover

Deleted User wrote: »

That was answered above.

You have yet to cite one match at which a UEFA official was present, asked for a flag to be taken down, and it was still displayed, and no sanction issued.

The statement also helpfully clarified that the flag was indeed displayed to comment on the current conflict.

Because it obviously hasn't happened before despite them having many opportunities and that's the nub of the question. Why only the Palestinian flag?

dreamers75

Updated Statement
BY DUNDALK FC •
Dundalk Football Club would like to thank the many supporters who have contacted the club with supportive messages in the last three days. We share their deep concern over this serious incident.

As we stated on Saturday, we did not wish to comment on this matter until after we have received the full written judgement from UEFA. However, due to the unprecedented amount of interest in this issue we feel we need to make this statement.

We strongly encourage all Dundalk supporters to please allow the club to deal with this matter in the correct manner. We are concerned that any statement from any organisation that claims to represent any group of Dundalk supporters may be misinterpreted and could make this situation worse. In particular, we are concerned at any supporter(s) making direct contact with UEFA.

This situation arose because of the refusal of certain individuals to listen to our appeals at the Hajduk Split match to refrain from doing anything that may damage the club. Given that our original appeals were ignored, we would ask these individuals to listen to us now. Please allow us to deal with this matter without the fear that any supporter(s) may do something that could potentially make this worse or damage our chances of a successful appeal.

We share the concern of Dundalk supporters who fear that they are being misrepresented by a small group of individuals, a number of whom have been involved in other issues that have cost the club a lot of money in fines and who have attempted to create divisions between the club and supporters.

We are aware that this small group of people do not speak for Dundalk supporters and have no right to act on their behalf. We also appreciate that a number of fans who have been involved with this group have done so in good faith and have done nothing wrong. A number of supporters who were involved with this group are now distancing themselves from the ringleaders that have been causing on-going problems in Oriel Park.

From Dundalk FC’s point of view, we are distressed that these individuals are embroiling the club with the tragic situation in Gaza. We are football club, a non-political organisation, and we are doing our best to run the club to the best of our ability. Recently during the local elections, we refused to allow any political party to advertise in Oriel Park. However, we are aware that the club does not exist in a vacuum were outside issues have no impact on us all. Despite this, we are shocked that we are releasing a statement that has any connection with this tragic issue.

This long statement is an attempt to explain our problem right now. On one side we are being punished by UEFA. Dundalk FC do not believe that these flags are “political”, “inappropriate” or “illicit”. However, the debate on whether sport and politics is very complex and not one that we feel particularly qualified to make a judgement on. However, UEFA have their rules on this matter. We simply had no choice whatsoever but to respect the wishes of the UEFA delegate on the night who explained to us that due to the conflict that either Palestinian or Israeli flags have a political context and therefore should be removed immediately.

On the other side, we have been punished by the actions of a small group of individuals who ignored our appeals after the serious consequences of these actions were outlined to us by the UEFA delegate.

In fact, the match came within seven minutes of not even kicking-off and then, in the second-half, the game was very nearly stopped after the flags were displayed again on a number of occasions. This was after club officials explained the very serious ramifications of the use of these flags to these individuals. These individuals wilfully and deliberately ignored our appeals and we now find ourselves in this very difficult situation.

A number of supporters have contacted us to disassociate themselves from this group. We agree with the Dundalk supporters who have contacted us to encourage us to revisit our ground regulations and code of conduct to supporters. This has gone far enough.

The club has a lot of work to do in many areas. This issue is serving as a distraction from the many matters that the club’s volunteers and officials are required to deal with on a daily basis. It is now two years since the takeover of the club and we have come a long way and are enjoying a magnificent season. Yet despite our success, a small group of supporters have been continuously trying to undermine us and drive a wedge between the club and the supporters.

The club will await the written verdict from UEFA and then discuss our options with legal advisors. That is all we can do at this stage.

This issue may not be resolved any time soon. So, in the meantime, we want all Dundalk supporters to focus all of your attention on Friday’s match with Bohemians and getting behind our wonderfully dedicated players and staff as we face another tough match.

cba bolding the bold parts.

http://www.dundalkfc.com/updated-statement/

tayto lover

dreamers75 wrote: »

cba bolding the bold parts.

http://www.dundalkfc.com/updated-statement/

Very good.
I found this part interesting --

"This long statement is an attempt to explain our problem right now. On one side we are being punished by UEFA. Dundalk FC do not believe that these flags are “political”, “inappropriate” or “illicit”. However, the debate on whether sport and politics is very complex and not one that we feel particularly qualified to make a judgement on. However, UEFA have their rules on this matter. We simply had no choice whatsoever but to respect the wishes of the UEFA delegate on the night who explained to us that due to the conflict that either Palestinian or Israeli flags have a political context and therefore should be removed immediately."

I'd love to know how much clubs where the Israeli flag was displayed were fined. I doubt any were.

dreamers75

dreamers75 wrote: »

cba bolding the bold parts.

http://www.dundalkfc.com/updated-statement/

Yeah, the statement confirming that the flag was indeed displayed to refer to the current conflict must have been particularly unhelpful for the club.

losthorizon

losthorizon wrote: »

The Argentina Banner was actually held up by the Argentina team itself not the fans!

The Bayern fine was just as much for "gay" bashing as for the Kosovo flag. Interestingly though the fine was only €10,000. Pittence for Bayern. Ireland recognizes Kosovan independence as do a whole hose of European nations. I dont see how UEFA can enforce that. I believe Germany recognizes that nations independence as well. In fact we have Police and troops there.

The Celtic one isnt relevant tbh.

http://footballrefereeing.blogspot.ie/2014/07/europa-league-201415-referee_14.html#.U_t84_ldXh4

BTW the UEFA delegate was French.

Obviously each incident can be distinguished.

One could point out that the Bobby Sands one was a reference to an MP.

The Germans were fined less but the closure of part of the stadium meant larger revenue losses. It was indeed part of a fine that referred to another banner, but of course Dundalk are also being fined for other issues too, not just for displaying the flag. As for UEFA not enforcing it, haven't seen that.

tayto lover

Deleted User wrote: »

Obviously each incident can be distinguished.

One could point out that the Bobby Sands one was a reference to an MP.

The Germans were fined less but the closure of part of the stadium meant larger revenue losses. It was indeed part of a fine that referred to another banner, but of course Dundalk are also being fined for other issues too, not just for displaying the flag. As for UEFA not enforcing it, haven't seen that.

None of those were National Flags.

hjkl

People should remember that the Palestinian flag is the flag of an interational football team that is a member of FIFA and the Asian Football Confederation.

tayto lover

tayto lover wrote: »

None of those were National Flags.

And none of them were a specific reference to a current conflict.

Which the statement made earlier clarifies was the precise purpose of the Palestinian flag.

tayto lover

frimpong wrote: »

People should remember that the Palestinian flag is the flag of an interational football team that is a member of FIFA and the Asian Football Confederation.

It's all about fair play.
If EUFA fine one club for allowing Palestinian flags then they have to fine other clubs for allowing Israeli flags. That's my point.
EUFA are hypocrites and this should be fought.

My name is URL

jank wrote: »

ISIS also has a 'national' flag. Acceptable to fly that?

Jesus christ, jank. I've seen some poorly thought out arguments but you've come close to taking the biscuit with that one.

frimpong wrote: »

People should remember that the Palestinian flag is the flag of an interational football team that is a member of FIFA and the Asian Football Confederation.

Them Asians or their supporters have no place in Dundalk according to UEFA

Say no to racism indeed :rolleyes:

My name is URL

My name is URL wrote: »

Them Asians or their supporters have no place in Dundalk according to UEFA

Say no to racism indeed :rolleyes:

I don't think there is any suggestion that the flag was flown by "them Asians". It was displayed to make a point about the conflict.

You are hardly seriously suggesting that UEFA is motivated by racism in this instance.

shanered

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I don't think there is any suggestion that the flag was flown by "them Asians". It was displayed to make a point about the conflict.

You are hardly seriously suggesting that UEFA is motivated by racism in this instance.

Well when you single out a nationality and a nations flag to be banned from football matches while you allow all the others it equates to discrimination to that nationality. And when you activly discriminate against a specific nation, it falls in the category of racism, so it hardly such a strech to suggest that uefa are being a little racist here.The fact that a uefa official hasn't been at a match, asked to take flags down etc etc is because I can bet a uefa official got it wrong to ask for a national flag to be removed.
I can only imagine if they asked for all tricolours to be banned at Celtic match because of the support of the Ira during the troubles...

Its a complete farce and heavy handed.

tayto lover

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't think there is any suggestion that the flag was flown by "them Asians". It was displayed to make a point about the conflict.

You are hardly seriously suggesting that UEFA is motivated by racism in this instance.

One wonders.

shanered

shanered wrote: »

Well when you single out a nationality...

They haven't "singled out a nationality".

Or a race.

The flag was waved to make a point about a conflict. That seems relatively political to me. They repeatedly asked for a flag to be taken down. It wasn't. I think a fine was pretty inevitable.

My name is URL

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't think there is any suggestion that the flag was flown by "them Asians". It was displayed to make a point about the conflict.

You are hardly seriously suggesting that UEFA is motivated by racism in this instance.

It wasn't making any point about the conflict. Unless you know more than everyone else at least. What specific point regarding the conflict was it making?

There were no slogans or banners attached. Just a flag.. what others take away from that doesn't negate the fact that it was just the flag of a recognised country.

And so what if it did make some point? People made a point of boycotting and peacefully demonstrating at sporting events during troubles in South Africa. Not the Irish though.. so it's not a surprise that so may are defending UEFA's decision here.

What is the big deal, really? A flag was unfurled... UEFA could have overlooked it and instead have decided to draw attention to it and make an example of a tiny group of supporters of a small club by fining them a stupid amount of money for such a thing.

My name is URL

My name is URL wrote: »

It wasn't making any point about the conflict. Unless you know more than everyone else at least. What specific point regarding the conflict was it making?

Nope, just reading the first line of post 96 and the claim that the flag was displayed in response to the deaths of 4 children on the current Gaza conflict.

shanered

[Deleted User] wrote: »

They haven't "singled out a nationality".

Or a race.

The flag was waved to make a point about a conflict. That seems relatively political to me. They repeatedly asked for a flag to be taken down. It wasn't. I think a fine was pretty inevitable.

Singled out the palastinian nationality and the Palestinian race as politically offenisive to support.
They wouldn't ask for any other nations flag to be removed, and therein lies the discrimination.

shanered

shanered wrote: »

Singled out the palastinian nationality and the Palestinian race as politically offenisive to support.
They wouldn't ask for any other nations flag to be removed, and therein lies the discrimination.

The "Palestinian Race"?

Do you mean Arabs?

If the is some anti-Arab sentiment in footballs governing bodies, I wonder who will get the World Cup in 2022.

tayto lover

Deleted User wrote: »

The "Palestinian Race"?

Do you mean Arabs?

If the is some anti-Arab sentiment in footballs governing bodies, I wonder who will get the World Cup in 2022.

Some of the Oil States i'd imagine. Even if the games are held in extremely hot and dangerous conditions. Maybe a few quid will change hands to enable this.
Won't be in Palestine anyway as their pitches have big holes in them.

dundalkfc10

tayto lover wrote: »

Because it obviously hasn't happened before despite them having many opportunities and that's the nub of the question. Why only the Palestinian flag?

Cliftonville fans were asked to remove a Palestine flag during their 1st game in Europe this season, Fans took it down as asked and that was the end of it

Only if the "clowns" in that part of the Shed didnt do the same

Number 1 man seems to have been banned (again) Hopefully this time is for good

tayto lover

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

Cliftonville fans were asked to remove a Palestine flag during their 1st game in Europe this season, Fans took it down as asked and that was the end of it

Only if the "clowns" in that part of the Shed didnt do the same

Number 1 man seems to have been banned (again) Hopefully this time is for good

I don't know who you are referring to there. I go to the odd game but sit in the stand.
My whole argument is about the heavy-handedness of EUFA and why they picked on the Palestinian flag and no other. Their grounds for doing so seems political to me.

losthorizon

Deleted User wrote: »

They haven't "singled out a nationality".

Or a race.

The flag was waved to make a point about a conflict. That seems relatively political to me. They repeatedly asked for a flag to be taken down. It wasn't. I think a fine was pretty inevitable.

About a particular conflict. Not a conflict. Loads of conflicts going on in the world. And you can fly the flags of these nations at any UEFA game no problem.

Indeed the next World Cup will see us at a country involved in loads of conflicts - Russia.

My name is URL

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

Number 1 man seems to have been banned (again) Hopefully this time is for good

What is your association with Dundalk FC? They've said to be wary of what others are posting and saying on their behalf so... do you want to disclose anything?

dundalkfc10

My name is URL wrote: »

What is your association with Dundalk FC? They've said to be wary of what others are posting and saying on their behalf so... do you want to disclose anything?

Well thats the word around the town, everyone knows it. Il change it too supposedly got a letter!

http://www.republicanunity.org/rnu-dundalk-call-for-no-payment-on-uefa-fine/

Its getting into silly territory now with these clowns planning a protest! :mad:

Richie Sadlier hit the nail on the head regarding it tonight!

Donnielighto

Are repuublic flags at celtic matches ok?

jank

tayto lover wrote: »

I don't know why the flags were there but I support their right to have them. I have see Palestinian flags at many venues over the last 50 years. The injustice in Gaza and the West Bank did not start a month ago.

As regards the Israeli flags at Spurs and Ajax I asked if those clubs were fined by EUFA and if not, why not?

Probably because they were flown at domestic matches, not UEFA sanctioned matches. I told you this already but you have ignored this possibility.

Hammer Archer

jank wrote: »

Probably because they were flown at domestic matches, not UEFA sanctioned matches. I told you this already but you have ignored this possibility.

Spurs fans had Israeli flags at a Europa league game 2 seasons ago and they would probably have them at most games but they go unphotographed.

anncoates

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

Richie Sadlier hit the nail on the head regarding it tonight!

If only somebody would hit him on the head.

jank

Hammer Archer wrote: »

Spurs fans had Israeli flags at a Europa league game 2 seasons ago and they would probably have them at most games but they go unphotographed.

They have them at 'most' games but mysteriously even though there are now thousands of cameras at ground they are not photographed...