Dundalk fined €18,000 by UEFA over Palestinian Flags

jank

jank wrote: »

They have them at 'most' games but mysteriously even though there are now thousands of cameras at ground they are not photographed...

Ah but the Jews control Hollywood, UEFA and all cameras!

That statement by the "Republican Network for Unity" is fairly stupid, after the club begging people to refrain from getting involved, they call for a protest against the fine and the "Israeli terror machine". Why could they not comply with the clubs sensible request?

Hammer Archer

jank wrote: »

They have them at 'most' games but mysteriously even though there are now thousands of cameras at ground they are not photographed...

Maybe research a bit about Spurs' connection with the Jewish community and get back to me.

tayto lover

jank wrote: »

Probably because they were flown at domestic matches, not UEFA sanctioned matches. I told you this already but you have ignored this possibility.

I want to know what is wrong with the Palestinian flag though?
It's a national flag of a recognised country. If someone was waving a U.S., Russian, French or Japanese flag would the same rules still apply?

It is EUFA who are making this a political issue and highlighting it.

yesno1234

tayto lover wrote: »

I want to know what is wrong with the Palestinian flag though?
It's a national flag of a recognised country. If someone was waving a U.S., Russian, French or Japanese flag would the same rules still apply?

It is EUFA who are making this a political issue and highlighting it.

Is your keyboard broken?

It's UEFA! EUFA is not clever or witty, just annoying so give it a rest.

tayto lover

yesno1234 wrote: »

Is your keyboard broken?

It's UEFA! EUFA is not clever or witty, just annoying so give it a rest.

It's not intended to be "clever or witty". Whatever made you think that?
I am looking for answers and if you can't deliver then don't reply.
EUFA have picked an easy fight in my view.
Plenty of other grounds flying flags have been ignored. Bullyboys.

Now if you don't like me bringing this up then use your ignore button.

laoch na mona

the fine for flag waving is bollocks surely people are entitled to bring flags or banners as long as there not offensive, and no one could call a Palestinian flag offensive unless the existence of Palestine offends you

Godge

tayto lover wrote: »

I don't know who you are referring to there. I go to the odd game but sit in the stand.
My whole argument is about the heavy-handedness of EUFA and why they picked on the Palestinian flag and no other. Their grounds for doing so seems political to me.

Palestine is not a member of the UN.

It is different to other countries, in law.

Whether or not that should be the case is one of the issues in the "war".

tayto lover

Godge wrote: »

Palestine is not a member of the UN.

It is different to other countries, in law.

Whether or not that should be the case is one of the issues in the "war".

So a non-UN country is treated differently by EUFA than a member with regards to flags.
I knew it was discrimination.:rolleyes:

Amirani

Godge wrote: »

Palestine is not a member of the UN.

It is different to other countries, in law.

Whether or not that should be the case is one of the issues in the "war".

Palestine is an observer member of the UN, the same status as Vatican City (they're the only 2 I think).

But your point is correct, it is legally different in UN terms to most other countries.

Godge

tayto lover wrote: »

So a non-UN country is treated differently by EUFA than a member with regards to flags.
I knew it was discrimination.:rolleyes:

Discrimination on what grounds? And is it illegal discrimination?

In interviewing for a job, it is illegal to discriminate on grounds of gender, race, age, etc. However, there is nothing to stop you ruling out everyone who wears brown shoes or wears green trousers etc. If the grounds for discrimination are legal, you can discriminate.

Rhys Essien

So Uefa have a problem with the Palestinian flag yet they have no problem with allowing Maccabi Tel Aviv play on Thursday night in the Europa league qualifiers.A team from a country who have murdered over 2000 people in the last few weeks.

Did these fools ever hear of a bit of balance.

tayto lover

tayto lover wrote: »

So a non-UN country is treated differently by EUFA than a member with regards to flags.
I knew it was discrimination.:rolleyes:

We've had discrimination and even racism touted here, and references to Spurs and so on.

I think it's much more straightforward than people suggest. There is a ban on political gestures. The UEFA official at the match thought this was a political gesture (and indeed as confirmed in the statement by the supporters, he was correct). He asked that it cease. It didn't. A fine was inevitable. Whether Spurs were or were not fined has no bearing on this official and this warning.

Richie Sadlier did explain that such officials can kinda do their own thing and there seems to be no clear standard, and he thinks Dundalk simply have to put up with it. Of course, no harm in an appeal. But talks of racism and getting international support...it's a little pie in the sky. Of course it may be that a flag has not been considered before, and on that basis I hope Dundalk's appeal is treated favourably and UEFA may consider that they have fired out their warning.

tayto lover

Godge wrote: »

Discrimination on what grounds? And is it illegal discrimination?

In interviewing for a job, it is illegal to discriminate on grounds of gender, race, age, etc. However, there is nothing to stop you ruling out everyone who wears brown shoes or wears green trousers etc. If the grounds for discrimination are legal, you can discriminate.

You can also be discriminated against but unable to prove it in law.

Rhys Essien

Rhys Essien wrote: »

So Uefa have a problem with the Palestinian flag yet they have no problem with allowing Maccabi Tel Aviv play on Thursday night in the Europa league qualifiers.A team from a country who have murdered over 2000 people in the last few weeks.

Did these fools ever hear of a bit of balance.

Ah this is getting silly.

This rule has no bearing whatsoever on the suggestion that we sanction teams. None. It is not connected. That is a different issue completely.

And frankly if every country involved in a conflict (not spree murder, as you suggest) were sanctioned, not sure there would be too many left at all.

Skylinehead

Rhys Essien wrote: »

So Uefa have a problem with the Palestinian flag yet they have no problem with allowing Maccabi Tel Aviv play on Thursday night in the Europa league qualifiers.A team from a country who have murdered over 2000 people in the last few weeks.

Did these fools ever hear of a bit of balance.

They didn't ban the USA for Iraq, Russia for Ukraine, seems perfectly balanced to me. UEFA have absolutely nothing to do with conflicts.

tayto lover

Deleted User wrote: »

We've had discrimination and even racism touted here, and references to Spurs and so on.

I think it's much more straightforward than people suggest. There is a ban on political gestures. The UEFA official at the match thought this was a political gesture (and indeed as confirmed in the statement by the supporters, he was correct). He asked that it cease. It didn't. A fine was inevitable. Whether Spurs were or were not fined has no bearing on this official and this warning.

Richie Sadlier did explain that such officials can kinda do their own thing and there seems to be no clear standard, and he thinks Dundalk simply have to put up with it. Of course, no harm in an appeal. But talks of racism and getting international support...it's a little pie in the sky. Of course it may be that a flag has not been considered before, and on that basis I hope Dundalk's appeal is treated favourably and UEFA may consider that they have fired out their warning.

It doesn't explain how other clubs were not fined i.e. Barca for the Catalonian flags, Celtic for the Republican flags, Rangers, Ajax, Spurs etc etc.
They picked on the small club and on the Palestinian flag for some reason.

jank

tayto lover wrote: »

I want to know what is wrong with the Palestinian flag though?
It's a national flag of a recognised country. If someone was waving a U.S., Russian, French or Japanese flag would the same rules still apply?

It is EUFA who are making this a political issue and highlighting it.

Again, that is false. There is no Palestine state or country, yet anyway.

tayto lover

tayto lover wrote: »

It doesn't explain how other clubs were not fined i.e. Barca for the Catalonian flags, Celtic for the Republican flags, Rangers, Ajax, Spurs etc etc.
They picked on the small club and on the Palestinian flag for some reason.

Because, for the Nth time, there is no suggestion that a UEFA official was present, objected to the display, asked that it cease, and was ignored.

It is no defence for a drink driver to say everyone else drinks and drives. He's the one that's caught. Instances of non application of the rules have no bearing on whether there was a breach of them in this case. Other clubs have been fined for displays, that is clear. Yes, this time it's a flag, but that time it was a reference to Kosovo, the other a reference to an MP and so on. Each case is different, as is this.

jank

Rhys Essien wrote: »

So Uefa have a problem with the Palestinian flag yet they have no problem with allowing Maccabi Tel Aviv play on Thursday night in the Europa league qualifiers.A team from a country who have murdered over 2000 people in the last few weeks.

Did these fools ever hear of a bit of balance.

Yes, they should only be allowed to pay on Wednesday night or better yet ban them!! Bloody UEFA and their Israel loving policies....:mad::mad::mad:

jank

tayto lover wrote: »

It doesn't explain how other clubs were not fined i.e. Barca for the Catalonian flags, Celtic for the Republican flags, Rangers, Ajax, Spurs etc etc.
They picked on the small club and on the Palestinian flag for some reason.

For the 4th time, were those flags show at a UEFA match....

tayto lover

jank wrote: »

Again, that is false. There is no Palestine state or country, yet anyway.

That is entirely debatable. Many would see it like you do but many others see it as an independent state.

tayto lover

jank wrote: »

For the 4th time, were those flags show at a UEFA match....

Yes and posters have provided links.

jank

jank wrote: »

For the 4th time, were those flags show at a UEFA match....

And at that a UEFA match with an official who saw the flags, deemed it political, objected to it, but was ignored. An even narrower category I'd say.

Rhys Essien

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah this is getting silly.

This rule has no bearing whatsoever on the suggestion that we sanction teams. None. It is not connected. That is a different issue completely.

And frankly if every country involved in a conflict (not spree murder, as you suggest) were sanctioned, not sure there would be too many left at all.

Has it occured to you how many Israeli flags will be flying on Thursday night in Tel Aviv.Uefa can't just ban a flag of one side of a conflict.Its either all or none.This is them being political when they dont have to be.

Dundalk need to head for the court of arbitration for sport.

For all Uefa know,there was Palestinian people in the crowd celebrating Palestine winning the Asian Challenge Cup a few months back.
http://www.the-afc.com/en/afc-challenge-2014-cup-all-news/28711-palestine-win-afc-challenge-cup-2014.html

tayto lover

Deleted User wrote: »

Because, for the Nth time, there is no suggestion that a UEFA official was present, objected to the display, asked that it cease, and was ignored.

It is no defence for a drink driver to say everyone else drinks and drives. He's the one that's caught. Instances of non application of the rules have no bearing on whether there was a breach of them in this case. Other clubs have been fined for displays, that is clear. Yes, this time it's a flag, but that time it was a reference to Kosovo, the other a reference to an MP and so on. Each case is different, as is this.

That analogy is silly tbh.
If the same drink driver was picked out of a line of drink drivers .....

EUFA officials attend many games and to suggest that they have never attended a game where a Catalonian, Israeli flag etc were produced is ridiculous and childish.

Rhys Essien

Rhys Essien wrote: »

Has it occured to you how many Israeli flags will be flying on Thursday night in Tel Aviv.Uefa can't just ban a flag of one side of a conflict.Its either all or none.

Do you understand what has happened?

They haven't banned the Palestinian flag at all. I'm sure Palestinians can wave it all they like.

An official, at one match, one particular night, thought its use in that context was political. As it turned out, he was absolutely correct - the supporters later confirming that it wasn't because of any affinity to that country or they made a mistake and thought a Palestinian team was playing, it was to express an opinion about an event in a conflict.

Of course they can censure the flag of one side of a conflict. Surely we all accept that, say, a Swastika or the ISIS flag should be banned?

tayto lover

tayto lover wrote: »

That analogy is silly tbh.
If the same drink driver was picked out of a line of drink drivers .....

EUFA officials attend many games and to suggest that they have never attended a game where a Catalonian, Israeli flag etc were produced is ridiculous and childish.

No no, I appreciate you may be getting annoyed because you can't answer the question, but it's not in the least "ridiculous and childish" to observe that you cannot point to one instance like this at another club and show that there was a different result. I asked you before for just one example where a UEFA official made a requirement that was ignored. Photos from random games of other flags don't demonstrate that, or indeed the anti-Arab racism you hinted at in other posts.

tayto lover

Deleted User wrote: »

No no, I appreciate you may be getting annoyed because you can't answer the question, but it's not in the least "ridiculous and childish" to observe that you cannot point to one instance like this at another club and show that there was a different result. I asked you before for just one example where a UEFA official made a requirement that was ignored. Photos from random games of other flags don't demonstrate that, or indeed the anti-Arab racism you hinted at in other posts.

You're posts are still being silly and evasive.
You said "the fans later confirmed". So why did he approach them prior to this and do the officials approach every fan waving a Palestinian, Israeli, Catalonian, Bobby Sands etc etc.

By the way my purpose was to find out what was offensive about a Palestinian flag in the first place and why EUFA picked on it whilst turning a blind eye to the others. I don't really care whose ground it was displayed at.
I have not had clear answers either.

jank

tayto lover wrote: »

Yes and posters have provided links.

There are no link as far as I can see regarding the flying of the Israeli flags.

jank

Rhys Essien wrote: »

Has it occured to you how many Israeli flags will be flying on Thursday night in Tel Aviv.Uefa can't just ban a flag of one side of a conflict.Its either all or none.This is them being political when they dont have to be.

As already mentioned, Israel are a member of UEFA. Palestine are not..
Its like groundhog day here.


#Cue a question about the US/Japan/Brazil flag...:cool:

Rhys Essien

Deleted User wrote: »

Of course they can censure the flag of one side of a conflict. Surely we all accept that, say, a Swastika or the ISIS flag should be banned?

This I 100% agree.Had the lads at Oriel Park been waving an al-Qassam brigades flag(military wing of Hamas),then I would say fair enough,although 18k is still a lot of money for what the club get.But for Uefa to deem it political for waving a flag which represents millions of people and for a country to have won the Asian challenge cup in May this year under the Fifa umbrella is farcical to say the least.

On a sidenote,what will happen if any Russians are in the Aviva stadium over the next few months and start waving Russian flags.Will Uefa decide as they go along.Dundalk should be confident of winning this.

djpbarry

laoch na mona wrote: »

the fine for flag waving is bollocks surely people are entitled to bring flags or banners as long as there not offensive...

So who gets to decide what is offensive and what is not? You?

Hammer Archer

jank wrote: »

There are no link as far as I can see regarding the flying of the Israeli flags.

The picture I posted earlier in the thread was of an Israeli flag at a Europa League game between Spurs and Maribor at White Hart Lane in late 2012. And I don't think anyone could suggest that there wasn't a UEFA official present at the game.

tayto lover

Hammer Archer wrote: »

The picture I posted earlier in the thread was of an Israeli flag at a Europa League game between Spurs and Maribor at White Hart Lane in late 2012. And I don't think anyone could suggest that there wasn't a UEFA official present at the game.

"There are none so blind ..............."

CHealy

laoch na mona wrote: »

the fine for flag waving is bollocks surely people are entitled to bring flags or banners as long as there not offensive, and no one could call a Palestinian flag offensive unless the existence of Palestine offends you

As there is an ongoing conflict in the region, UEFA deems the flags to be a political statement. Thats is that, end of.

Richie Sadlier for all his ****e talk got it spot on last night on Soccer Republic. That certain grouping of Dundalk fans are not coming out of this well at all.

y0ssar1an22

I dont know if it has been previously mentioned but....
surly you could use this precedent to effectively bankrupt a club. Have a couple of people go to each match and start waving Palestinian flags. You will probably need a different group for each game as you will most likely be banned.

Is it illegal to wave a Palestinian flag? If not you'd face no repercussions while screwing over a club. Your rival club maybe?

Stupid imposing a fine IMO

Darkglasses

CHealy wrote: »

As there is an ongoing conflict in the region, UEFA deems the flags to be a political statement. Thats is that, end of.

Richie Sadlier for all his ****e talk got it spot on last night on Soccer Republic. That certain grouping of Dundalk fans are not coming out of this well at all.

That all sounds reasonable, but the fine still seems extremely high. 18 grand is a lot for one little flag. A far smaller fine/caution would have sent the message just fine.

Hammer Archer

Hammer Archer wrote: »

The picture I posted earlier in the thread was of an Israeli flag at a Europa League game between Spurs and Maribor at White Hart Lane in late 2012. And I don't think anyone could suggest that there wasn't a UEFA official present at the game.

And...go on...what did he or she say?

It's of no use to say "flag at the game". There are flags at every single game.

What you have to show is that the flag was seen by the official who deemed it political asked for it to be removed. That's what happened at Dundalk. Various anecdotes about flags at other matches add nothing to the issue, I think everyone accepts there will be flags at other matches. We don't have to refer to Catalan or Israeli flags (although some posters seem intent on focussing on just Israeli flags, perhaps trying to invoke that old Jewish influence chestnut). Heck, there are even Palestinian flags at other matches, despite hints here that UEFA is racist. Here is one such pic from Celtic fans with a very pointed political message supporting Palestinians...

http://i0.wp.com/celticjournal.org/wp-content/uploads/20131207-021316.jpg

y0ssar1an22

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

surly you could use this precedent to effectively bankrupt a club.

True, but on the other hand that always applied. One could go in and stand on seats, or wave flares, or give straight arm salutes or chant racist abuse.

It's up to the stewards to deal with it.

CHealy

Darkglasses wrote: »

That all sounds reasonable, but the fine still seems extremely high. 18 grand is a lot for one little flag. A far smaller fine/caution would have sent the message just fine.

Obviously its a huge fine for a LOI club, but the UEFA delegate was twice on the verge of calling the game off if the officials and stewards of Dundalk football club couldnt do their job.

People can have a go off UEFA all they want, but the situation was made very clear to them before the game started.

djpbarry

Darkglasses wrote: »

That all sounds reasonable, but the fine still seems extremely high. 18 grand is a lot for one little flag. A far smaller fine/caution would have sent the message just fine.

It does seem pretty high, but the problem is the same rules have to be applied to everyone and an €18k fine is peanuts to most clubs involved in European competition.

So what's the alternative? Force the club to play their next game behind closed doors?

Omackeral

Was there ever fines handed down during the Setanta Cup for the flying of flags? I think Derry banned the use of the Tricolour and the Union Flag for that competition. Wondering did it spread to any other grounds or was it just the Brandywell?

Also, tayto_lover what's up with this EUFA acronym you keep doing???

tayto lover

Deleted User wrote: »

And...go on...what did he or she say?

It's of no use to say "flag at the game". There are flags at every single game.

What you have to show is that the flag was seen by the official who deemed it political asked for it to be removed. That's what happened at Dundalk. Various anecdotes about flags at other matches add nothing to the issue, I think everyone accepts there will be flags at other matches. We don't have to refer to Catalan or Israeli flags (although some posters seem intent on focussing on just Israeli flags, perhaps trying to invoke that old Jewish influence chestnut). Heck, there are even Palestinian flags at other matches, despite hints here that UEFA is racist. Here is one such pic from Celtic fans with a very pointed political message supporting Palestinians...

http://i0.wp.com/celticjournal.org/wp-content/uploads/20131207-021316.jpg

So then how many clubs have had bans because their fans waved Israeli flags again?

y0ssar1an22

Deleted User wrote: »

True, but on the other hand that always applied. One could go in and stand on seats, or wave flares, or give straight arm salutes or chant racist abuse.

It's up to the stewards to deal with it.

But does standing on seats and using flares result in a UEFA fine? And with the racism you could face prosecution.

Using flags gets the best of both worlds. Earn a UEFA fine for the club without doing anything illegal yourself.

y0ssar1an22

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

But does standing on seats and using flares result in a UEFA fine? And with the racism you could face prosecution.

Using flags gets the best of both worlds. Earn a UEFA fine for the club without doing anything illegal yourself.

Flares can lead to very big fines...

http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/3277/la-liga/2011/10/06/2699378/barcelona-fined-95000-for-fan-flares-in-uefa-super-cup-win

tayto lover

tayto lover wrote: »

So then how many clubs have had bans because their fans waved Israeli flags again?

I'd say only 1 less than the number that have had fines because their fans waved Palestinian flags. It's fairly tight. Not sure it supports the conspiracy theories about the influence of the Israelis in the corridors of power or the alleged racism by UEFA.

tayto lover

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd say only 1 less than the number that have had fines because their fans waved Palestinian flags. It's fairly tight. Not sure it supports the conspiracy theories about the influence of the Israelis in the corridors of power or the alleged racism by UEFA.

I agree. It's very odd that Dundalk are the only club and the Palestinian flag the only one too. I couldn't find a club who were fined for flying the Israeli flag either. Odd.

dan1895

The pic of Ajax fans with the giant Israeli flag on the first page of the thread is from a champions league game. Impossible for the UEFA delegation to miss.

tayto lover

dan1895 wrote: »

The pic of Ajax fans with the giant Israeli flag on the first page of the thread is from a champions league game. Impossible for the UEFA delegation to miss.

You can be sure they wouldn't have missed it had it been a Palestine flag though.

dreamers75

Omackeral wrote: »

Was there ever fines handed down during the Setanta Cup for the flying of flags? I think Derry banned the use of the Tricolour and the Union Flag for that competition. Wondering did it spread to any other grounds or was it just the Brandywell?

Also, tayto_lover what's up with this EUFA acronym you keep doing???

Pats not allowed use Ireland flags in Richmond, Northern teams allowed use UK flags in Richmond