Dundalk fined €18,000 by UEFA over Palestinian Flags

dundalkfc10

dreamers75 wrote: »

Pats not allowed use Ireland flags in Richmond, Northern teams allowed use UK flags in Richmond

Cliftonville only allow the Tri-Colour if it has the club logo, wording on the front of it. Dont allow just the flag

losthorizon

Deleted User wrote: »

And...go on...what did he or she say?

It's of no use to say "flag at the game". There are flags at every single game.

What you have to show is that the flag was seen by the official who deemed it political asked for it to be removed. That's what happened at Dundalk. Various anecdotes about flags at other matches add nothing to the issue, I think everyone accepts there will be flags at other matches. We don't have to refer to Catalan or Israeli flags (although some posters seem intent on focussing on just Israeli flags, perhaps trying to invoke that old Jewish influence chestnut). Heck, there are even Palestinian flags at other matches, despite hints here that UEFA is racist. Here is one such pic from Celtic fans with a very pointed political message supporting Palestinians...

http://i0.wp.com/celticjournal.org/wp-content/uploads/20131207-021316.jpg

Yes, but UEFA and its observers should be apolitical not political.

They are making judgments on certain flags and not others. Its a key difference.

If a Russian UEFA observer is at a match and sees a Ukrainian flag being waved at a match he might see that as a political gesture. I however would not.

Also as mentioned previously UEFA handed out fines for things related to Kosovo and its independence because Bayern fans supported it.

Now in Ireland the Government already recognizes that country's independence. So to the Department of Foreign Affairs its just as independent as France (the UEFA observer at the Dundalk game was French).

So waving a Kosovo flag would get you a fine but its a nation we recognise as independent but waving a French flag wouldn't. Yet French soldiers are in military operations all over the world - makes no sense.

laoch na mona

djpbarry wrote: »

So who gets to decide what is offensive and what is not? You?

if a country's existence offends you then ive got bad news for you :cool:

tayto lover

tayto lover wrote: »

You can be sure they wouldn't have missed it had it been a Palestine flag though.

As a matter of fact, that is wrong. They have turned a blind eye to the display of Palestinian flags and messages before. Most particularly Lazio fans unfurling a Free Palestine banner at a Spurs game in the Europa League, although that club was penalised for racist and anti-Semitic chanting.

Again, the issue here is not some conspiracy theory involving Jews and power. It's very simply that, at Dundalk, the UEFA official made a decision and the fans refused to comply with it. I'm not sure what the fans involved thought would happen, that the official would laugh it off?

tayto lover

Deleted User wrote: »

As a matter of fact, that is wrong. They have turned a blind eye to the display of Palestinian flags and messages before. Most particularly Lazio fans unfurling a Free Palestine banner at a Spurs game in the Europa League, although that club was penalised for racist and anti-Semitic chanting.

Again, the issue here is not some conspiracy theory involving Jews and power. It's very simply that, at Dundalk, the UEFA official made a decision and the fans refused to comply with it. I'm not sure what the fans involved thought would happen, that the official would laugh it off?

Surely the issue is why Dundalk and why the Palestinian flag?

tayto lover

tayto lover wrote: »

Surely the issue is why Dundalk and why the Palestinian flag?

Because the official at the game deemed it political and repeatedly asked that it be taken down, according to Richie Sadlier, and repeatedly had to threaten to have the game abandoned.

The incredible thing is how Dundalk didn't realise how annoyed he was, get the stewards to go in, and take it off the fans. Or how those fans thought it was appropriate to keep displaying it when it was clear to the club that the official was rather annoyed about it. He may have overreacted, but once he signalled his position they should have done everything to appease him. They are paying a heavy price for not doing so now.

losthorizon

The question has to be asked of UEFA though - why this flag?

If I was Dundalk I would ask this question. Don't expect help from the FAI btw.

red sean

laoch na mona wrote: »

if a country's existence offends you then ive got bad news for you :cool:

Whether a foreign country exists or not is irrelevant.
What is relevant, is that flag had nothing whatsoever to do with Dundalk FC or Hadjuk Split.
It was raised purely for political reasons, despite the 'supporter' being told not to do it again. The dick/dicks who waved it should be identified and billed for €18k.
Armchair Palestinians from Dundalk waving a flag will achieve absolutely nothing for their 'cause', other than a huge fine for the club they purport to support.

djpbarry

laoch na mona wrote: »

if a country's existence offends you then ive got bad news for you :cool:

I'm not getting drawn into a non-football discussion. But for the record, I doubt the idiot(s) in question could even point to Palestine on a map.

UEFA have very good reasons for banning political protests at football matches. Whether you or I find a particular flag or banner (in)offensive is irrelevant - allowing "supporters" to fly such flags/banners would open a massive can of worms.

Politics has no place inside a sports ground.

overshoot

djpbarry wrote: »

I'm not getting drawn into a non-football discussion. But for the record, I doubt the idiot(s) in question could even point to Palestine on a map.

UEFA have very good reasons for banning political protests at football matches. Whether you or I find a particular flag or banner (in)offensive is irrelevant - allowing "supporters" to fly such flags/banners would open a massive can of worms.

Politics has no place inside a sports ground.

id fully agree politics has no place in sport, but its the simple argument that if you ban a country's flag because its involved in a conflict then surely every other country who is involved in one should also be banned and its a big list....

attaching banners makes it clearcut, but a flag by itself still carries some ambiguity and unless uefa are going to start publishing lists of recognised conflicts and affected, therefore banned flags, to single out dundalk for one flag does indicate a xenophobic attitude in europes governing body and opens massive can of worms in itself.

djpbarry

overshoot wrote: »

id fully agree politics has no place in sport, but its the simple argument that if you ban a country's flag because its involved in a conflict then surely every other country who is involved in one should also be banned and its a big list...

But it’s obviously not that simple. It’s all about context. It wasn't just a case of a random flag being flown, it was a pro-Palestine/anti-Israel protest.

And for those who claim that Dundalk have been singled out for some reason, Zenit St Petersburg and Bayern Munich have both received fines from UEFA this year. Zenit fans burned a German flag during a match against Dortmund and Bayern fans displayed a pro-Kosovo banner in a match against Arsenal. I’m sure there have been other fines handed out.

djpbarry

losthorizon wrote: »

The question has to be asked of UEFA though - why this flag?

That question really has to be asked, does it? Really?

Darkglasses

Moved posts from LOI thread

dundalkfc10

The fact is everyone who entered Oriel Park that night agreed to adhere by Uefa's Rules and Regulations (whether you think they are wrong or not)
These 2 or 3 individuals, Maxi being the main one! Pictures of him arguing with the Chairman before the game in front of the Shed are starting to pop up on twitter so he cant dodge his way out of this one.
He and his "followers" were told the club would be fined if they didnt stop waving the flag before the game. After a small argument, they seemed to agree but on 3 occasions during the game the flag was waved from the middle of the Shed!

The club will appeal the ban, more than likely will get it reduced. will come out of the money Uefa are giving Dundalk around Christmas and hopefully these 3 or 4 individuals will be banned from Oriel

Now lets go win this treble! Id settle for the League on its own though!

Chardee MacDennis

Haven't followed the debate but this is pretty atrocious imo.

is there any fund being collected to help Dundalk pay the fine? Or is that just a patronising concept?

Darkglasses

BastardPrince wrote: »

Haven't followed the debate but this is pretty atrocious imo.

is there any fund being collected to help Dundalk pay the fine? Or is that just a patronising concept?

It's being taken out of their UEFA prize money I think, so it's not exactly the most needy cause atm.

Pro. F

Deleted User wrote: »

And...go on...what did he or she say?

It's of no use to say "flag at the game". There are flags at every single game.

What you have to show is that the flag was seen by the official who deemed it political asked for it to be removed. That's what happened at Dundalk. Various anecdotes about flags at other matches add nothing to the issue, I think everyone accepts there will be flags at other matches. We don't have to refer to Catalan or Israeli flags (although some posters seem intent on focussing on just Israeli flags, perhaps trying to invoke that old Jewish influence chestnut). Heck, there are even Palestinian flags at other matches, despite hints here that UEFA is racist. Here is one such pic from Celtic fans with a very pointed political message supporting Palestinians...

http://i0.wp.com/celticjournal.org/wp-content/uploads/20131207-021316.jpg

To prove inconsistency all you need to show is that a flag was waved at a UEFA game and seen by a UEFA official but nothing was done. You don't need to show that an official asked for it to be taken down, because that would still imply that they are prohibiting some flags and not others. Then you could go on to find that the inconsistency is either based on what club they are at (big club vs small) or what flag was waved (Palestinian vs all the other nations in armed conflicts) or something else.

In all likelihood the inconsistency is caused by UEFA being a shower of idiots.

djpbarry

Pro. F wrote: »

To prove inconsistency all you need to show is that a flag was waved at a UEFA game and seen by a UEFA official but nothing was done. You don't need to show that an official asked for it to be taken down, because that would still imply that they are prohibiting some flags and not others. Then you could go on to find that the inconsistency is either based on what club they are at (big club vs small) or what flag was waved (Palestinian vs all the other nations in armed conflicts) or something else.

So are there instances of a UEFA official seeing a Palestinian flag at a Europa League or Champions League game and doing nothing about it? Or more accurately, is there another recent example of a UEFA official at a Champions League tie repeatedly asking for a Palestinian flag to be removed, only for the flag to be flown numerous times during the game?

If not, then there is no inconsistency.

Pro. F

djpbarry wrote: »

So are there instances of a UEFA official seeing a Palestinian flag at a Europa League or Champions League game and doing nothing about it? Or more accurately, is there another recent example of a UEFA official at a Champions League tie repeatedly asking for a Palestinian flag to be removed, only for the flag to be flown numerous times during the game?

If not, then there is no inconsistency.

Your examples would only show inconsistency in how UEFA deals with Palestinian flags, not flags in general.

djpbarry

Pro. F wrote: »

Your examples would only show inconsistency in how UEFA deals with Palestinian flags, not flags in general.

But this isn't about flags, it's about political statements. It just so happens that in this case the political statement was the displaying of a flag.

Pro. F

djpbarry wrote: »

But this isn't about flags, it's about political statements. It just so happens that in this case the political statement was the displaying of a flag.

What makes the displaying of one flag a political statement and not another?

djpbarry

Pro. F wrote: »

What makes the displaying of one flag a political statement and not another?

Context, obviously.

In the context of a Dundalk - Split Champions League match, featuring zero Palestinian players, the waving of a Palestinian flag is very obviously a political statement.

dan1895

djpbarry wrote: »

Context, obviously.

In the context of a Dundalk - Split Champions League match, featuring zero Palestinian players, the waving of a Palestinian flag is very obviously a political statement.

How?

djpbarry

dan1895 wrote: »

How?

How else could it possibly be interpreted?

Pro. F

djpbarry wrote: »

Context, obviously.

In the context of a Dundalk - Split Champions League match, featuring zero Palestinian players, the waving of a Palestinian flag is very obviously a political statement.

So are all national flags unacceptable* political statements at a UEFA game, unless they represent a player or team on the pitch?

* I added "unacceptable" because by definition all national flags are a political statement.

dan1895

djpbarry wrote: »

How else could it possibly be interpreted?

It's just a flag. Like the Israeli one. As said before, UEFA are the ones making this political.

djpbarry

Pro. F wrote: »

So are all national flags unacceptable* political statements at a UEFA game, unless they represent a player or team on the pitch?

Obviously not.

What’s your point? All national flags are either acceptable or unacceptable? Because that’s obviously ridiculous.

djpbarry

dan1895 wrote: »

It's just a flag. Like the Israeli one. As said before, UEFA are the ones making this political.

Oh I see. So the guy waving it just liked the colour of it, did he?

Pro. F

djpbarry wrote: »

Obviously not.

What’s your point? All national flags are either acceptable or unacceptable? Because that’s obviously ridiculous.

The point would be that there should be some consistent and fair rules about this. Do you know what the rules are?

dan1895

djpbarry wrote: »

Oh I see. So the guy waving it just liked the colour of it, did he?

My point is if it were an Israeli flag nothing would have been said.

djpbarry

djpbarry wrote: »

Context, obviously.

In the context of a Dundalk - Split Champions League match, featuring zero Palestinian players, the waving of a Palestinian flag is very obviously a political statement.

And the supporters made a statement afterwards confirming that it was political. Just to clear it up. It was the expression of sympathy for particular victims in the recent conflict. Which may not be unreasonable, but is not apolitical either.

djpbarry

Pro. F wrote: »

The point would be that there should be some consistent and fair rules about this. Do you know what the rules are?

I'm not really seeing what's "unfair" with regard to this particular case. The UEFA official at the match warned the club of the consequences of not complying with his instructions. The club also have the opportunity to appeal the fine. What's unfair about that?

As for consistency, how do you define on paper what constitutes a political protest?

djpbarry

dan1895 wrote: »

My point is if it were an Israeli flag nothing would have been said.

I really doubt that.

Pro. F

Deleted User wrote: »

And the supporters made a statement afterwards confirming that it was political. Just to clear it up. It was the expression of sympathy for particular victims in the recent conflict. Which may not be unreasonable, but is not apolitical either.

That might well scupper any appeal but it still doesn't show that UEFA are consistent in how they deal with flags.

Pro. F

Pro. F wrote: »

In all likelihood the inconsistency is caused by UEFA being a shower of idiots.

I don't think anyone would argue with that.

There will be inconsistencies. Not because the Jews control UEFA or UEFA is racist, as was suggested in previous posts here (not by you), but very simply what one official deems political may not bother another. It's not ideal, but there you go. Palestinian flags were tolerated in other games at other grounds, so clearly it's not some deep seated bias in UEFA.

The official repeatedly said take it down. He threatened to have the match abandoned. Not sure how Dundalk didn't wade in at that stage and just take the flag away. Now they may pay very dearly for being so flippant, even if they think the official was wrong. They should appeal and grovel. I would be surprised if UEFA overrule their own official, but as it's a first offence, and €18k is a huge amount for a club here, they may be lenient if Dundalk show a willingness to comply and give assurances etc. etc.

dan1895

Deleted User wrote: »

And the supporters made a statement afterwards confirming that it was political. Just to clear it up. It was the expression of sympathy for particular victims in the recent conflict. Which may not be unreasonable, but is not apolitical either.

I doubt the UEFA delegate knew this at the time.

As an aside, I do think some of this SSA lot are morons by the sounds of things.

laoch na mona

djpbarry wrote: »

Politics has no place inside a sports ground.

there you are wrong mate everything in life is effected by politics therefore nowhere is off limits.

its also very insulting to call the fans with the flags not real fans

Pro. F

djpbarry wrote: »

I'm not really seeing what's "unfair" with regard to this particular case. The UEFA official at the match warned the club of the consequences of not complying with his instructions. The club also have the opportunity to appeal the fine. What's unfair about that?

As for consistency, how do you define on paper what constitutes a political protest?

What would be unfair is if it is only the Palestinian flag that is prohibited and other nations' flags that are allowed (at games where those nations aren't playing). Do you know what flags are not allowed?

What would be inconsistent would be if UEFA frequently allow these flags at other games and don't try to get them taken down. Do you know whether or not that is the case?

Another thing that would be unfair would be if UEFA are handing out the fines with no regard to the sizes of the clubs receiving them.

tayto lover

I have no time for the prats who had the flag.
All they do is turn people against a good cause which deserves support like Palestine.
The whole affair though highlights the bias of the EUFA official(s) as many other flags in other grounds do not incur the same penalties.
They made it political in my view.

Pro. F

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't think anyone would argue with that.

There will be inconsistencies. Not because the Jews control UEFA or UEFA is racist, as was suggested in previous posts here (not by you), but very simply what one official deems political may not bother another. It's not ideal, but there you go. Palestinian flags were tolerated in other games at other grounds, so clearly it's not some deep seated bias in UEFA.

The official repeatedly said take it down. He threatened to have the match abandoned. Not sure how Dundalk didn't wade in at that stage and just take the flag away. Now they may pay very dearly for being so flippant, even if they think the official was wrong. They should appeal and grovel. I would be surprised if UEFA overrule their own official, but as it's a first offence, and €18k is a huge amount for a club here, they may be lenient if Dundalk show a willingness to comply and give assurances etc. etc.

It's far from just not ideal, it is completely unethical and unacceptable. Allowing officials to make off the cuff decisions about what national flags can be flown at neutral games would be a terrible idea. Even UEFA wouldn't try that and they did refer to a list of prohibited flags. But that doesn't seem to be published, so they should remedy that.

And I agree the Jewish Conspiracy theories are no help.

Paz-CCFC

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

Now lets go win this treble! Id settle for the League on its own though!

You're selling Dundalk FC short there and we won't have it. Only one trophy wouldn't represent what a fantastic season ye've had. Ye deserve two trophies and the FAI and League Cups would look stunning in the trophy cabinet in Oriel Park.

djpbarry

Pro. F wrote: »

What would be unfair is if it is only the Palestinian flag that is prohibited and other nations' flags that are allowed (at games where those nations aren't playing).

You seem to be totally fixated on the issue of flags – this isn’t about flags, it’s about political protests.

But anyway, if it was only Palestinian flags that were prohibited, why would that be “unfair”?

Pro. F wrote: »

What would be inconsistent would be if UEFA frequently allow these flags at other games and don't try to get them taken down. Do you know whether or not that is the case?

It’s already been pointed out that clubs far larger than Dundalk (Zenit and Bayern) have been fined this year because their fans conducted political protests at matches.

Pro. F wrote: »

Another thing that would be unfair would be if UEFA are handing out the fines with no regard to the sizes of the clubs receiving them.

I don’t really see how different fines for different clubs is going to work in practice.

djpbarry

tayto lover wrote: »

The whole affair though highlights the bias of the EUFA official(s) as many other flags in other grounds do not incur the same penalties.

For example?

Richard Hillman

laoch na mona wrote: »

there you are wrong mate everything in life is effected by politics therefore nowhere is off limits.

its also very insulting to call the fans with the flags not real fans

In all of my years attending football matches I have never felt the need to involve politics around watching a football match. As with the vast majority of people that attend games to watch games.

The only people that do it are attention seekers. They get ignored all week in their day to day lives and they roll out their political views on match day where they may get some attention. It is always far left/right people of the spectrum. People that are using extreme politics as a vehicle to fill a void in their lives. A cause to belong to because they have never felt a part of society.

If people want to make a politcal point, then stand outside an embassy or a parliament. Piss off away from our football grounds. That also goes for the people running the sport who want to try and have the sport revolve around non sporting causes.

So, yes. Football and politcs can be seperated because the vast majority of people do it.

My name is URL

djpbarry wrote: »

You seem to be totally fixated on the issue of flags – this isn’t about flags, it’s about political protests.

But anyway, if it was only Palestinian flags that were prohibited, why would that be “unfair”?
It’s already been pointed out that clubs far larger than Dundalk (Zenit and Bayern) have been fined this year because their fans conducted political protests at matches.
I don’t really see how different fines for different clubs is going to work in practice.

What were they 'protesting' exactly?

djpbarry

My name is URL wrote: »

What were they 'protesting' exactly?

Well that's the thing - I doubt they could articulate it.

My name is URL

djpbarry wrote: »

Well that's the thing - I doubt they could articulate it.

You and others keep saying that they were making a political protest, but as yet nobody has been able to say what, if anything; they were protesting.

Is holding a flag an inherent form of protest? There were no banners, no slogans and no chanting.. just a flag. How is that a protest?

emo72

I suppose the meaning of the flag is to show solidarity. Doesn't necessarily follow that one is against Israel. Just to let people know we are thinking of them in their time of crisis. 18k is a terrible fine for a LOI team.

Pro. F

djpbarry wrote: »

You seem to be totally fixated on the issue of flags – this isn’t about flags, it’s about political protests.

And so I'll ask you again, what makes the waving of a Palestinian flag a political protest, as opposed to the waving of any other national flag that doesn't represent the teams or players on the pitch?

I'll address your other points once we finally get this bit cleared up.

ArmaniJeanss

Pro. F wrote: »

And so I'll ask you again, what makes the waving of a Palestinian flag a political protest, as opposed to the waving of any other national flag that doesn't represent the teams or players on the pitch?

Well fairly or unfairly, it ultimately comes down to UEFAs decision and their delegate at the matchs decision. In much the same way as their appointed referee decides loads of stuff associated with the match, the vast bulk of which is, like all referees, 'in his opinion'.
Its not compulsory to enter their competitions if you dislike their terms and conditions, alternatively if you so choose there are methods to question and get changes to those rules.

But just deciding on the day* to ignore their rules isn't particularly clever, nor is then demanding that you need the actual rule you've broken to be 100% defined in some legally bullet proof manner before you accept that you might have fallen foul of it.

* I do understand it was the SSA, not Dundalk FC who did this.