Dundalk fined €18,000 by UEFA over Palestinian Flags

tayto lover

djpbarry wrote: »

For example?

How much were Ajax, Spurs, Barcelona, Celtic, Rangers etc fined for flag waving?
Flags i'm talking about, not banners.
Celtic played in the CL the other night and there were hundreds of Irish flags.
Barca play and there are hundreds of Catalonian flags.

How is the Palestinian flag a political issue but the others are not?

djpbarry

My name is URL wrote: »

Is holding a flag an inherent form of protest?

Not necessarily, no. As I said above, it depends on the context.

My name is URL wrote: »

There were no banners, no slogans and no chanting.. just a flag. How is that a protest?

What other reason is there for waving a Palestinian flag at a Dundalk-Split match? Call it a show of solidarity if you prefer, it was still apolitical statement.

djpbarry

Pro. F wrote: »

And so I'll ask you again, what makes the waving of a Palestinian flag a political protest, as opposed to the waving of any other national flag that doesn't represent the teams or players on the pitch?

The feigned innocence is getting tiresome.

There’s obviously been a very well-documented escalation in violence between Israel and Palestine lately, hasn’t there? The flag has absolutely nothing to do with Dundalk or Split, so the logical conclusion is that the individual waving it was making a political statement. The same conclusion could be reached if they were waving an Israeli, Syrian, Iraqi, Russian, Ukranian, Crimean or whatever flag.

Had the individual in question been waving Saint Piran's Flag, for example, which happens to in the colours of Dundalk, it’s pretty unlikely anyone would have taken issue.

djpbarry

tayto lover wrote: »

Celtic played in the CL the other night and there were hundreds of Irish flags.
Barca play and there are hundreds of Catalonian flags.

How is the Palestinian flag a political issue but the others are not?

Because Palestine has absolutely nothing to do with Dundalk Football Club?

dan1895

tayto lover wrote: »

How much were Ajax, Spurs, Barcelona, Celtic, Rangers etc fined for flag waving?
Flags i'm talking about, not banners.
Celtic played in the CL the other night and there were hundreds of Irish flags.
Barca play and there are hundreds of Catalonian flags.

How is the Palestinian flag a political issue but the others are not?

Pretty sure Celtic had a Palestinian flag hanging very prominently at the front of their support in Slovenia last week. Haven't heard anything being said.

tayto lover

djpbarry wrote: »

Because Palestine has absolutely nothing to do with Dundalk Football Club?

Does not answer the question at all.

pablomakaveli

Does anyone know anything about the particular official in this case? I know he was French but has he a history of being strict with stuff like this.

I get the impression he may have been the one who recommended the punishment since he seemed to have a big issue with the flag. Could explain why other clubs have gotten away with flying controversial flags in the past. Probably just depends on what official you get on the day.

Hard Worker

tayto lover wrote: »

How much were Ajax, Spurs, Barcelona, Celtic, Rangers etc fined for flag waving?
Flags i'm talking about, not banners.
Celtic played in the CL the other night and there were hundreds of Irish flags.
Barca play and there are hundreds of Catalonian flags.

How is the Palestinian flag a political issue but the others are not?

Celtic have an Irish identity and they officially fly the Irish tricolour, among other flags, at Celtic Park.
Barcelona is part of Catalonia. Why would there be a problem with Barca fans flying Catalan flags?
Dundalk FC have no member of staff, as far as I know, from Palestine.
It's a silly argument now at this stage.
The stewards should have taken the flag from this Maxi bloke and given it back to him at the end of the game. The fact that they didn't has meant an €18000 fine for the club. I don't know what the grounds for appeal are. However, if an appeal is made, the only grounds appear to be on the severity of the fine for one single flag.

tayto lover

Hard Worker wrote: »

Celtic have an Irish identity and they officially fly the Irish tricolour, among other flags, at Celtic Park.
Barcelona is part of Catalonia. Why would there be a problem with Barca fans flying Catalan flags?
Dundalk FC have no member of staff, as far as I know, from Palestine.
It's a silly argument now at this stage.
The stewards should have taken the flag from this Maxi bloke and given it back to him at the end of the game. The fact that they didn't has meant an €18000 fine for the club. I don't know what the grounds for appeal are. However, if an appeal is made, the only grounds appear to be on the severity of the fine for one single flag.

All political issues just like Palestine.
Doesn't matter who the club is. Spurs have Israeli flags all the time as do Ajax.

Nothing silly about the argument at all imo.

uch

tayto lover wrote: »

All political issues just like Palestine.
Doesn't matter who the club is. Spurs have Israeli flags all the time as do Ajax.

Ajax have been fined several times for flags and Banners, a quick Google will confirm this

tayto lover

uch wrote: »

Ajax have been fined several times for flags and Banners, a quick Google will confirm this

For banners BUT not for flags it seems.

ArmaniJeanss

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Well fairly or unfairly, it ultimately comes down to UEFAs decision and their delegate at the matchs decision. In much the same way as their appointed referee decides loads of stuff associated with the match, the vast bulk of which is, like all referees, 'in his opinion'.
Its not compulsory to enter their competitions if you dislike their terms and conditions, alternatively if you so choose there are methods to question and get changes to those rules.

But just deciding on the day* to ignore their rules isn't particularly clever, nor is then demanding that you need the actual rule you've broken to be 100% defined in some legally bullet proof manner before you accept that you might have fallen foul of it.

* I do understand it was the SSA, not Dundalk FC who did this.

Hard to beat the logic of that post.

Time for Dundalk to beg for some reduction, raise the money towards it, and in future realise that when a UEFA official says "jump", the answer is "how high", it's not to be ignored, and there is no argument afterwards of the "but those fans over there didn't jump" variety. It's just a shame that it took this for the penny to drop.

tayto lover

I hope Dundalk fight this and don't allow themselves to be made out like little boys.
Have no time for the people who had the flag but the flag itself belongs to a down-trodden people and I feel EUFA have disrespected it.

K-9

tayto lover wrote: »

For banners BUT not for flags it seems.

Don't see the difference much really. If Ajax have been fined for Israeli banners all seems fair enough. EUFA conspiracy.

tayto lover

K-9 wrote: »

Don't see the difference much really. If Ajax have been fined for Israeli banners all seems fair enough. EUFA conspiracy.

No apparently they were punished for Banners alone and not for the Israeli flags.
Banners have slogans, flags don't.

Hard Worker

tayto lover wrote: »

I hope Dundalk fight this and don't allow themselves to be made out like little boys.
Have no time for the people who had the flag but the flag itself belongs to a down-trodden people and I feel EUFA have disrespected it.

By your statement, it is clearly about a down trodden people, and nothing to do with Dundalk football club. The UEFA delegate probably had the very same opinion as you.

tayto lover

Hard Worker wrote: »

By your statement, it is clearly about a down trodden people, and nothing to do with Dundalk football club. The UEFA delegate probably had the very same opinion as you.

So why that flag and just Dundalk then?

K-9

tayto lover wrote: »

No apparently they were punished for Banners alone and not for the Israeli flags.
Banners have slogans, flags don't.

What were the banners then?

tayto lover

K-9 wrote: »

What were the banners then?

Someone posted yesterday that the banners were homophobic.

Hard Worker

tayto lover wrote: »

So why that flag and just Dundalk then?

Because the delegate deemed that the flag was giving a political message and asked for it to be removed.
It's not just Dundalk. If that delegate was on duty at a different fixture and came across a similar situation, he would have ruled the same way. I doubt he's just picking on Dundalk.

tayto lover

Hard Worker wrote: »

Because the delegate deemed that the flag was giving a political message and asked for it to be removed.
It's not just Dundalk. If that delegate was on duty at a different fixture and came across a similar situation, he would have ruled the same way. I doubt he's just picking on Dundalk.

Well why don't they fine Spurs for instance?
They have Israeli flags at every home game no matter what competition it is.
Was this just a picky official or are the others unable to see the flags?

Captain Havoc

Any chance of something new in this thread? It's 20 pages of Spurs, Ajax and Israeli flags and why they didn't get fined and Dundlak did? Why is the Palestinian flag deemed political and others aren't?

losthorizon

There are quite a few Russian clubs left in Europe. I trust the flying of the Russian flag is now illegal at games?

Or is an important member of UEFA too big to annoy and you just pick on small nations?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28966679

dreamers75

legia buggered now.......

civis_liberalis

AgileMyth wrote: »

That's nothing to Dundalk. They pay Towell that every week.

In bonuses.

qwabercd

civis_liberalis wrote: »

In bonuses.

And bananas.

Hard Worker

dreamers75 wrote: »

legia buggered now.......

They certainly are. They were massively fined last year for racist behaviour. They've had a section of their stadium closed down on one occasion. It's not beyond possibility that they could be expelled from the competition. They've had so many warnings over different issues.

K4t

RoyalCelt wrote: »

No sympathy from me. A small group of Dundalk fans definitely like to make political statements that should be left out of sport. I remember at a match a few years ago at a Dundalk match a group of supporters were chanting hezbollah, hezbollah, hezbollah...

Hopefully this will be a lesson learned but I do agree bigger clubs with bigger turnovers need to get much bigger fines for similar incidents.

As someone else pointed out it wasn't just for having the flag. They were warned and ignored it. Only themselves to blame.

Why not just ignore them?

This fine only brings more attention to the whole thing which otherwise would have been confined to a few thousand football supporters, majority of who see the ridiculousness and stupidity of it. No need to go fining Dundalk for a few eijits waving a flag.

Pro. F

djpbarry wrote: »

The feigned innocence is getting tiresome.

There’s obviously been a very well-documented escalation in violence between Israel and Palestine lately, hasn’t there? The flag has absolutely nothing to do with Dundalk or Split, so the logical conclusion is that the individual waving it was making a political statement. The same conclusion could be reached if they were waving an Israeli, Syrian, Iraqi, Russian, Ukranian, Crimean or whatever flag.

Had the individual in question been waving Saint Piran's Flag, for example, which happens to in the colours of Dundalk, it’s pretty unlikely anyone would have taken issue.

There is no feigned innocence. I am asking you questions to pin down the details of your argument.

You now admit that if the Palestinian flag is a political protest (assuming it didn't represent either team or players on the pitch) that the flag of any nation involved in an armed conflict would also be a political protest. So you were wrong in your original response to me to insist that there would have to be examples of similar cases with Palestinian flags going unpunished to show inconsistency.

Pro. F

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Well fairly or unfairly, it ultimately comes down to UEFAs decision and their delegate at the matchs decision. In much the same way as their appointed referee decides loads of stuff associated with the match, the vast bulk of which is, like all referees, 'in his opinion'.
Its not compulsory to enter their competitions if you dislike their terms and conditions, alternatively if you so choose there are methods to question and get changes to those rules.

But just deciding on the day* to ignore their rules isn't particularly clever, nor is then demanding that you need the actual rule you've broken to be 100% defined in some legally bullet proof manner before you accept that you might have fallen foul of it.

* I do understand it was the SSA, not Dundalk FC who did this.

There are two different things being discussed. What UEFA does and what the right and the wrong of it is. And whether Dundalk might have a case to make in their defence.

If UEFA's rules are not clearly defined or are inconsistently applied then Dundalk would have a very strong case to appeal on. Whether they have the money to afford to conduct an appeal is another question.

If UEFA's rules, or how they apply them, are unjust, then it's reasonable for football fans to criticise them. Just because UEFA make the rules doesn't mean we automatically have to assume that they're doing an acceptable job.

djpbarry

tayto lover wrote: »

Does not answer the question at all.

Yes it does. You even said it yourself: the flag represents a people. It has absolutely shag all to do with the football match in question.

tayto lover wrote: »

Doesn't matter who the club is. Spurs have Israeli flags all the time as do Ajax.

Both clubs have a history of association with Jewish communities in London and Amsterdam, but regardless, Spurs have warned their fans on a number of occasions about their “embracing” of Jewish culture. The club have also been warned by the police about their fans’ behaviour and as far as I am aware, arrests have been made in the past for offensive banners and chanting.

djpbarry

Pro. F wrote: »

You now admit that if the Palestinian flag is a political protest (assuming it didn't represent either team or players on the pitch) that the flag of any nation involved in an armed conflict would also be a political protest.

What I actually said was that it could be interpreted in that way. This is the important point that people seem either unwilling or unable to accept – it all comes down to the interpretation of the UEFA official.

Pro. F wrote: »

So you were wrong in your original response to me to insist that there would have to be examples of similar cases with Palestinian flags going unpunished to show inconsistency.

Well that depends on how you define inconsistency, doesn’t it? I think you’re being extremely naïve if you think some sort of legally bullet-proof, 100% ultra-consistent set of guidelines could be drawn up by UEFA to cover this sort of thing.

To be honest, the whole “but look what happened over there” argument is pretty futile and is unlikely to get Dundalk anywhere. If they had heeded the official’s warnings, they wouldn’t have been punished. Simple as.

uch

Captain Havoc wrote: »

Any chance of something new in this thread? It's 20 pages of Spurs, Ajax and Israeli flags and why they didn't get fined and Dundlak did? Why is the Palestinian flag deemed political and others aren't?

I still don't know who EUFA are !

Pro. F

djpbarry wrote: »

What I actually said was that it could be interpreted in that way. This is the important point that people seem either unwilling or unable to accept – it all comes down to the interpretation of the UEFA official.

You said that if a Palestinian flag is waved at a game with no Palestinian teams or players then the logical conclusion is that the individual waving it was making a political statement. You did not say that it could be interpreted in that way, you said that it is the logical conclusion. Yet for some reason that is not the logical conclusion for you with the flag of any other nation who are in an armed conflict and not playing in a game. How so?

djpbarry wrote: »

Well that depends on how you define inconsistency, doesn’t it? I think you’re being extremely naïve if you think some sort of legally bullet-proof, 100% ultra-consistent set of guidelines could be drawn up by UEFA to cover this sort of thing.

To be honest, the whole “but look what happened over there” argument is pretty futile and is unlikely to get Dundalk anywhere. If they had heeded the official’s warnings, they wouldn’t have been punished. Simple as.

Your claim of the impossibility of having consistent rules about what national flags are allowed is laughable.

Captain Havoc

uch wrote: »

I still don't know who EUFA are !

Must be something to do with the EUFA cup in sensible soccer

tayto lover

djpbarry wrote: »

Yes it does. You even said it yourself: the flag represents a people. It has absolutely shag all to do with the football match in question.
Both clubs have a history of association with Jewish communities in London and Amsterdam, but regardless, Spurs have warned their fans on a number of occasions about their “embracing” of Jewish culture. The club have also been warned by the police about their fans’ behaviour and as far as I am aware, arrests have been made in the past for offensive banners and chanting.

1. So how can a flag that represents a people be offensive or political? If the Israeli flag is not offensive then how come EUFA see the Palestinian flag as offensive or political?

2. Have EUFA fined Spurs for it though? I think you'll find that they did not. Double standards.

djpbarry

Pro. F wrote: »

You said that if a Palestinian flag is waved at a game with no Palestinian teams or players then the logical conclusion is that the individual waving it was making a political statement.

No I didn’t – I was referring specifically to the Dundalk – Split match. You keep trying to generalise a specific incident.

Pro. F wrote: »

You did not say that it could be interpreted in that way, you said that it is the logical conclusion.

Perhaps you could propose an alternative conclusion?

Pro. F wrote: »

Yet for some reason that is not the logical conclusion for you with the flag of any other nation who are in an armed conflict and not playing in a game.

I never said anything of the sort.

Pro. F wrote: »

Your claim of the impossibility of having consistent rules about what national flags are allowed is laughable.

Ok then – how would such rules be worded?

Omackeral

I have to ask, is EUFA a branch of FAFI?

Skylinehead

Omackeral wrote: »

I have to ask, is EUFA a branch of FAFI?

EUFA makes a whole lot of sense....until you realise those pesky Russians are a member.

Pro. F

djpbarry wrote: »

No I didn’t – I was referring specifically to the Dundalk – Split match. You keep trying to generalise a specific incident.
Perhaps you could propose an alternative conclusion?
I never said anything of the sort.
Ok then – how would such rules be worded?

I specifically asked you:
"what makes the waving of a Palestinian flag a political protest, as opposed to the waving of any other national flag that doesn't represent the teams or players on the pitch?"

And you responded:

djpbarry wrote: »

There’s obviously been a very well-documented escalation in violence between Israel and Palestine lately, hasn’t there? The flag has absolutely nothing to do with Dundalk or Split, so the logical conclusion is that the individual waving it was making a political statement. The same conclusion could be reached if they were waving an Israeli, Syrian, Iraqi, Russian, Ukranian, Crimean or whatever flag.

So now I'll ask you, what made the waving of a Palestinian flag at the Dundalk - Split match a political protest, as opposed to the waving of any other national flag - of a country currently engaged in armed conflict - at any game not involving teams/players from that nation?

I'll address the other points you raise when you stop trying to spoof your way out of this part of the discussion.

Pro. F

Pro. F wrote: »

If UEFA's rules are not clearly defined or are inconsistently applied then Dundalk would have a very strong case to appeal on.

Have you been involved in such appeals, or can you at least point to other appeals in the past and the outcomes, which support the idea that they have a "very strong case"? Thanks.

Cos it seems the opposite to me. Dundalk accept that they are subject to scrutiny by a UEFA official, they know the rules and regulations in advance, they can always pull out of competitions if they feel the rules lack definition or consistency. It's very hard to agree to submit to a regime...and then argue afterwards that it wasn't fair.

tayto lover

Deleted User wrote: »

Have you been involved in such appeals, or can you at least point to other appeals in the past and the outcomes, which support the idea that they have a "very strong case"? Thanks.

Cos it seems the opposite to me. Dundalk accept that they are subject to scrutiny by a UEFA official, they know the rules and regulations in advance, they can always pull out of competitions if they feel the rules lack definition or consistency. It's very hard to agree to submit to a regime...and then argue afterwards that it wasn't fair.

They could cite games where National flags were on display without fines being imposed for a start.
Has anyone the list of banned flags please as I can't find it?

tayto lover

tayto lover wrote: »

They could cite games where National flags were on display without fines being imposed for a start.
Has anyone the list of banned flags please as I can't find it?

Far from being a "very strong case", arguing the non application of a rule or law in other instances is a very weak case.

Again, it's like someone breaking the law and arguing "but he got away with it and she got away with it". It's still the law.

Far better to argue that it does not apply in this case.

I'm not sure there is a list of banned flags. But again, presume that would only be an issue if Dundalk asked for a list before agreeing to UEFA's rules, and was told one existed. Again, it's very hard to agree to rules and regulations, and then when they work against you, arguing that they lacked precision.

tayto lover

Deleted User wrote: »

Far from being a "very strong case", arguing the non application of a rule or law in other instances is a very weak case.

Again, it's like someone breaking the law and arguing "but he got away with it and she got away with it". It's still the law.

Far better to argue that it does not apply in this case.

I'm not sure there is a list of banned flags. But again, presume that would only be an issue if Dundalk asked for a list before agreeing to UEFA's rules, and was told one existed. Again, it's very hard to agree to rules and regulations, and then when they work against you, arguing that they lacked precision.

But EUFA is just now setting a precedence but if that same precedence has been ignored at other grounds I think Dundalk has a case.

Omackeral

tayto lover wrote: »

But EUFA is just now setting a precedence but if that same precedence has been ignored at other grounds I think Dundalk has a case.

No.

tayto lover

Omackeral wrote: »

No.

Good lad.

Omackeral

Why are you saying EUFA constantly? Straight answer would be great.

tayto lover

Omackeral wrote: »

Why are you saying EUFA constantly? Straight answer would be great.

I'm lisdexic.

Omackeral

Seriously though? Is it a protest thing?

tayto lover

Omackeral wrote: »

Seriously though? Is it a protest thing?

No.