Dundalk fined €18,000 by UEFA over Palestinian Flags

Omackeral

why do you keep saying it?

tayto lover

Omackeral wrote: »

why do you keep saying it?

Habit.

dreamers75

Wonder what this will get.......

red sean

Wonder what this will get.......

It's a different scenario in fairness. I presume that pic. was taken at a British ground involving British clubs, and referencing a British political issue.
But where's the link between Dundalk and Palestine?
Waving the Palestine flag may have been seen by the UEFA official as purely to (possibly) antagonise one side in a warring situation.

What makes no sense to me was waving the flag in the first place!

tayto lover

red sean wrote: »

It's a different scenario in fairness. I presume that pic. was taken at a British ground involving British clubs, and referencing a British political issue.
But where's the link between Dundalk and Palestine?
Waving the Palestine flag may have been seen by the UEFA official as purely to (possibly) antagonise one side in a warring situation.

What makes no sense to me was waving the flag in the first place!

What about Spurs and Ajax then with the Israeli flags?

losthorizon

red sean wrote: »

It's a different scenario in fairness. I presume that pic. was taken at a British ground involving British clubs, and referencing a British political issue.
But where's the link between Dundalk and Palestine?
Waving the Palestine flag may have been seen by the UEFA official as purely to (possibly) antagonise one side in a warring situation.

What makes no sense to me was waving the flag in the first place!

Yes indeed, I heard hundreds of Israelis at the game complained.

BTW when UEFA as I have stated before start handing out fines for flying the Russian flag (who have just invaded Ukraine) I will give them credit for treating everybody equally.

red sean

tayto lover wrote: »

What about Spurs and Ajax then with the Israeli flags?

I have no idea, as indeed I'd say most people on here have no idea!
Maybe if you email UEFA they'll reply.

What p1sses me off about the whole thing is that a so-called fan can cause a club run by hard working volunteers mainly, to be heavily fined for something he/they were earlier told not to do, ie waving a flag that had no relevance to the teams or countries involved.

Whether other clubs get away with it or not, I don't know. But I know an €18k fine for the likes of Spurs or Ajax wouldn't even be regarded as news because it's peanuts to them.

If it happened in the Showgrounds, I'd want the prikks banned for life.

tayto lover

red sean wrote: »

I have no idea, as indeed I'd say most people on here have no idea!
Maybe if you email UEFA they'll reply.

What p1sses me off about the whole thing is that a so-called fan can cause a club run by hard working volunteers mainly, to be heavily fined for something he/they were earlier told not to do, ie waving a flag that had no relevance to the teams or countries involved.

Whether other clubs get away with it or not, I don't know. But I know an €18k fine for the likes of Spurs or Ajax wouldn't even be regarded as news because it's peanuts to them.

If it happened in the Showgrounds, I'd want the prikks banned for life.

But the flag is the issue for some of us.
Do you think the official would have complained and Dundalk would have been fined if the flag was American?

dreamers75

red sean wrote: »

It's a different scenario in fairness. I presume that pic. was taken at a British ground involving British clubs, and referencing a British political issue.
But where's the link between Dundalk and Palestine?
Waving the Palestine flag may have been seen by the UEFA official as purely to (possibly) antagonise one side in a warring situation.

What makes no sense to me was waving the flag in the first place!

In as far as politics in football goes, that rangers one is far and away the worst yet. They are advocating a vote.

The Palestine flag i assume is some sort of solidarity crap.

Dundalk have yet to release the full content of the fine, its not 18k for the flag seemingly there were other issues. For all we know the flag is €500.

Hard Worker

Different rules apply in different competitions. UEFA do not allow political flags, banners or any other form of political statement at their fixtures. The delegate at Oriel deemed the Palestinian flag as political. That would be my opinion too, as it would have had no relevance to any player, member of staff or supporters group at Dundalk F.C.
The political crowd cover flag at Ibrox wouldn't necessarily be subject to the same rules.

losthorizon

Hard Worker wrote: »

Different rules apply in different competitions. UEFA do not allow political flags, banners or any other form of political statement at their fixtures. The delegate at Oriel deemed the Palestinian flag as political. That would be my opinion too, as it would have had no relevance to any player, member of staff or supporters group at Dundalk F.C.
The political crowd cover flag at Ibrox wouldn't necessarily be subject to the same rules.

The first year I started going to LOI games Rangers were drawn to play Bohrmians in a UEFA Cup game. There was havoc in Dublin caused by Rangers "fans". Plenty of NI flags waved as well despite no NI team playing yet no fine for waving of a NI flag or flags and Rangers appeared in Europe the next season despite the havoc.

In fact as a result of the trouble it was the Irish clubs who suffered as Shels drew Rangers and they decided to play Rangers outside of this country for safety reasons. Some fair play there. Of course Scotland does have "special" status in UEFA.

Hard Worker

losthorizon wrote: »

The first year I started going to LOI games Rangers were drawn to play Bohrmians in a UEFA Cup game. There was havoc in Dublin caused by Rangers "fans". Plenty of NI flags waved as well despite no NI team playing yet no fine for waving of a NI flag or flags and Rangers appeared in Europe the next season despite the havoc.

In fact as a result of the trouble it was the Irish clubs who suffered as Shels drew Rangers and they decided to play Rangers outside of this country for safety reasons. Some fair play there. Of course Scotland does have "special" status in UEFA.

Rangers fans from Northern Ireland can wave their flags if they wish. Nothing wrong with that. There were plenty of Swedish flags flying in Celtic Park when Larsson played and Polish flags when the Holy Goalie played.
There are no Palestinians playing for Dundalk.
Can you not see the difference?

qwabercd

losthorizon wrote: »

The first year I started going to LOI games Rangers were drawn to play Bohrmians in a UEFA Cup game. There was havoc in Dublin caused by Rangers "fans". Plenty of NI flags waved as well despite no NI team playing yet no fine for waving of a NI flag or flags and Rangers appeared in Europe the next season despite the havoc.

In fact as a result of the trouble it was the Irish clubs who suffered as Shels drew Rangers and they decided to play Rangers outside of this country for safety reasons. Some fair play there. Of course Scotland does have "special" status in UEFA.

Celtic fans have Irish flags at every game?

losthorizon

Hard Worker wrote: »

Rangers fans from Northern Ireland can wave their flags if they wish. Nothing wrong with that. There were plenty of Swedish flags flying in Celtic Park when Larsson played and Polish flags when the Holy Goalie played.
There are no Palestinians playing for Dundalk.
Can you not see the difference?

As I've said before once they decide to say ban the Russian flag I would be Happy. Its at this moment invading its neighbour and has invaded Georgia and according to UEFA rules no Russian flag should be waved.

And according to this report the UEFA observer missed the trouble. How could you miss this? He missed it because they were a British team!

One rule for some

qwabercd

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/29005409?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Suspected it once I heard that not all of the fine was in relation to the flags, that a large portion of the fine could relate to the standing during the game. Linfield are after getting a €15k for this. Good chance that €15k of the Dundalk fine related to the same. If so the Dundalk Board haven't covered themselves in glory.

Still a nonsense fine, good chunk of the Jinks Avenue stand was the same for the Sligo Rovers v Rosenborg game.

tayto lover

Hard Worker wrote: »

Rangers fans from Northern Ireland can wave their flags if they wish. Nothing wrong with that. There were plenty of Swedish flags flying in Celtic Park when Larsson played and Polish flags when the Holy Goalie played.
There are no Palestinians playing for Dundalk.
Can you not see the difference?

How many Israelis play for Spurs?

dundalkfc10

qwabercd wrote: »

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/29005409?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Suspected it once I heard that not all of the fine was in relation to the flags, that a large portion of the fine could relate to the standing during the game. Linfield are after getting a €15k for this. Good chance that €15k of the Dundalk fine related to the same. If so the Dundalk Board haven't covered themselves in glory.

Still a nonsense fine, good chunk of the Jinks Avenue stand was the same for the Sligo Rovers v Rosenborg game.

The Shedsidearmy have released the following.

hmm so they got 15k for people standing during the final minutes off the game and we got 18k for???? you decide was it all the flag now or does anybody think differently my thinking would be 15k for stadium infrastructure and possibly 3k for the flares?? what your thoughts on this people?? (podge)

:D

K-9

tayto lover wrote: »

How many Israelis play for Spurs?

Tbh, if we are going down the road of thinking an Israeli flag at a Spurs game, Irish flag at Celtic or a Union Jack at Ibrox are wrong, well count me out! They aren't my cup of tea but they are part of those clubs identity or back ground and contribute to the atmosphere.

djpbarry

Pro. F wrote: »

So now I'll ask you, what made the waving of a Palestinian flag at the Dundalk - Split match a political protest, as opposed to the waving of any other national flag - of a country currently engaged in armed conflict - at any game not involving teams/players from that nation?

You appear to be trying to argue against a point I haven’t made. I never said that “the waving of any other national flag - of a country currently engaged in armed conflict - at any game not involving teams/players from that nation” would not represent a political protest.

tayto lover

K-9 wrote: »

Tbh, if we are going down the road of thinking an Israeli flag at a Spurs game, Irish flag at Celtic or a Union Jack at Ibrox are wrong, well count me out! They aren't my cup of tea but they are part of those clubs identity or back ground and contribute to the atmosphere.

So who is going to go around all the grounds counting Palestinian flags and identifying the nationality of those carrying them? :pac:

djpbarry

tayto lover wrote: »

But EUFA is just now setting a precedence …

No they’re not. Other clubs have also received fines for similar issues.

tayto lover wrote: »

What about Spurs and Ajax then with the Israeli flags?

This has already been addressed several times. I don’t know about UEFA, but the police have warned Spurs about their fans conduct on numerous occasions and arrests have been made over offensive banners and chants.

As for Ajax, I don’t know, but you’re not comparing like with like. Ajax fans have been flying Israeli flags for decades – it’s something you expect to see when you go to an Ajax match. On the other hand, I don’t think I’ve ever seen Dundalk fans flying Palestinian flags before.

tayto lover wrote: »

But the flag is the issue for some of us.
Do you think the official would have complained and Dundalk would have been fined if the flag was American?

Perhaps. Who knows? You seem to be of the opinion that the official’s objection related specifically to the fact that it was a Palestinian flag?

djpbarry

dreamers75 wrote: »

Wonder what this will get.......

Nothing – it’s not at a European game.

djpbarry

losthorizon wrote: »

The first year I started going to LOI games Rangers were drawn to play Bohrmians in a UEFA Cup game. There was havoc in Dublin caused by Rangers "fans". Plenty of NI flags waved as well despite no NI team playing yet no fine for waving of a NI flag or flags and Rangers appeared in Europe the next season despite the havoc.

Would I be right in saying that was about 20 years ago? I think it’s reasonable to assume that UEFA’s rules have changed considerably in that time.

tayto lover

I don't really go to many Dundalk (other other's games) but that is not the point.
The issue for me is that the Palestinian flag seems to have been the target of this official's ire or that of his bosses.
Saying that some club has been allowing Israeli flags for years does not cut the mustard for me. Have they set a date for when the new rules came in i.e. 1999, 2012 and it's not ok to wave flags as from the Dundalk game?

djpbarry

tayto lover wrote: »

I don't really go to many Dundalk (other other's games) but that is not the point.

Well, yeah, it is.

People are arguing that this is no different to Celtic fans waving Irish flags or Rangers fans waving Union flags. But it obviously is very different and pretending otherwise is just daft.

If this is going to be the basis of Dundalk's appeal then they'll be laughed at.

tayto lover

djpbarry wrote: »

Well, yeah, it is.

People are arguing that this is no different to Celtic fans waving Irish flags or Rangers fans waving Union flags. But it obviously is very different and pretending otherwise is just daft.

If this is going to be the basis of Dundalk's appeal then they'll be laughed at.

To me it's all about the Palestinian flag and how that nation have been made second-class. On the football front i feel Dundalk have been scape-goated.

Don't know the basis of Dundalk's appeal either.

djpbarry

tayto lover wrote: »

To me it's all about the Palestinian flag and how that nation have been made second-class.

Ok, but that has nothing to do with football.

tayto lover wrote: »

On the football front i feel Dundalk have been scape-goated.

There is little evidence of that. Apart from the fact that other clubs have recently been fined, it's not like Dundalk were not given fair warning.

Jelle1880

losthorizon wrote: »

As I've said before once they decide to say ban the Russian flag I would be Happy. Its at this moment invading its neighbour and has invaded Georgia and according to UEFA rules no Russian flag should be waved.

And according to this report the UEFA observer missed the trouble. How could you miss this? He missed it because they were a British team!

One rule for some

This was a time when football hooliganism was rampant across the UK and the rest of Europe and it was seen as something that just happened.

It has nothing to do with the fact Rangers are British.

In the more recent past they have been fined often for fan behaviour.

UEFA is crystal clear about it: They do not allow fans to fly political flags or banners (which the Palestinian flag definitely is in this context). This is not limited to Irish clubs, plenty of clubs across Europe get fined each year for the same.

Hell, I read that Linfield got fined £15.000 recently for fans who were standing instead of sitting.

Is UEFA's stance good ? I don't think so, fans should be allowed to express their political ideas (within the legal boundaries) if they wish so, but the rules have been made very clear by UEFA.

inforfun

Here... knock yourself out and see who else have been fined for waving flags that have nothing to do with the match being played.

tayto lover

tayto lover wrote: »

To me it's all about the Palestinian flag and how that nation have been made second-class.

You have a few theories floating around.

For clarity, is it anti-Arab racism, evidence of the power of Jews, or UEFA's determination to "make a nation second class"...whatever that means?

tayto lover

inforfun wrote: »

Here... knock yourself out and see who else have been fined for waving flags that have nothing to do with the match being played.

Searched that and could not find the word "flag" at all.
Banners and racist behaviour in the main.
Perhaps you could point out the instances of "flags" causing bans please.

tayto lover

Deleted User wrote: »

You have a few theories floating around.

For clarity, is it anti-Arab racism, evidence of the power of Jews, or UEFA's determination to "make a nation second class"...whatever that means?

Yes i see it as picking on the Palestinians flag and no other.
They are being made second class in my view.
I take that view because the flying of the Israeli, Catalonian, Russsian, Irish, British etc did not cause bans.

inforfun

tayto lover wrote: »

Searched that and could not find the word "flag" at all.
Banners and racist behaviour in the main.
Perhaps you could point out the instances of "flags" causing bans please.

Zagreb was fined €20.000 when supporters waved a Macedonian flag during a match vs Greek opposition.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5347

pablomakaveli

dreamers75 wrote: »

legia buggered now.......

It's official. Legia getting charged for this now.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/sep/01/legia-warsaw-charged-uefa-champions-league-protest-banner

Doesn't say how much though.

Jelle1880

Celtic and St Johnstone have also been fined for the same.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/celtic-st-johnstone-hit-uefa-4149864

tayto lover

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Celtic and St Johnstone have also been fined for the same.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/celtic-st-johnstone-hit-uefa-4149864

Any club fined for having the Israeli flag yet?

Jelle1880

Let me guess... Ajax or Spurs ?

Again: These clubs have well established and documented links to their local Jewish communities, so it's not necessarily a political statement

The same can not be said about Palestinian flags.

doncarlos

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Let me guess... Ajax or Spurs ?

Again: These clubs have well established and documented links to their local Jewish communities, so it's not necessarily a political statement

The same can not be said about Palestinian flags.

There was no Israel when Ajax or Spurs had Jewish links so why fly the Israeli flag?

Dundalk is a town in a Catholic country, catholicism is a branch of Christianity. Christianity is following the teachings of Christ. Christ was born in Bethlehem which is in Palestine.

See, Dundalk has ridiculous links to a middle eastern country too! :pac:

osarusan

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Let me guess... Ajax or Spurs ?

Again: These clubs have well established and documented links to their local Jewish communities, so it's not necessarily a political statement

The same can not be said about Palestinian flags.

I thought that UEFA had decided that any display of an Israeli or Palestinian flag would be considered a political statement in the current circumstances...was I wrong?

Or is UEFA's position that they will made a decision on whether an individual case of flag-displaying consitutes a political statement or is a legitimate expression of community?

If the latter is the case, did they have any kind of investigation before fining Dundalk?

Jelle1880

osarusan wrote: »

I thought that UEFA had decided that any display of an Israeli or Palestinian flag would be considered a political statement in the current circumstances...was I wrong?

Or is UEFA's position that they will made a decision on whether an individual case of flag-displaying consitutes a political statement or is a legitimate expression of community?

If the latter is the case, did they have any kind of investigation before fining Dundalk?

I think they follow the match official's report, so if he/she says it's a political statement they automatically impose the fine and/or ban.

Then the club can appeal and it may be reviewed.

6781

UEFA are happy to see banners like ultras gegen rassismus which are political...

tayto lover

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Let me guess... Ajax or Spurs ?

Again: These clubs have well established and documented links to their local Jewish communities, so it's not necessarily a political statement

The same can not be said about Palestinian flags.

You made that up didn't ya?
If not maybe you could provide evidence.

6781

It's true though that Ajax and Spurs have strong Jewish links and have displayed the star of David for years. Mainly in defiance to rivals who call them yids or joden. The same can't be said for fans who wave the Palestine flag.

tayto lover

6781 wrote: »

It's true though that Ajax and Spurs have strong Jewish links and have displayed the star of David for years. Mainly in defiance to rivals who call them yids or joden. The same can't be said for fans who wave the Palestine flag.

So unless you have a relative living in Palestine your fecked then :pac:

6781

Also the Palestine flag is used by the far right like Lazio ultras for example as an anti semitism symbol. Not all who wave it support the Palestine cause.

tayto lover

6781 wrote: »

Also the Palestine flag is used by the far right like Lazio ultras for example as an anti semitism symbol. Not all who wave it support the Palestine cause.

Bit of a contradiction there as Palestinians are Semites.

MugMugs

Fairly harsh punishment against Dundalk. Don't Derry wear poppies?

NIMAN

MugMugs wrote: »

Fairly harsh punishment against Dundalk. Don't Derry wear poppies?

:eek::eek:

We do not.

6781

tayto lover wrote: »

Bit of a contradiction there as Palestinians are Semites.

Try explaining that to bone heads

Jelle1880

tayto lover wrote: »

You made that up didn't ya?
If not maybe you could provide evidence.

Let me help you out here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AFC_Ajax#Jewish_connection

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/football-why-tottenham-and-ajax-fans-have-a-jewish-identity-a-926095.html