Dundalk fined €18,000 by UEFA over Palestinian Flags

inforfun

As a Feyenoord fan i can confirm the Jewish links Ajax has. At the same time i dont think that there are that many Ajax fans that are (more or less) Jewish.
Can also tell you that in the past this resulted in Palestinian flags being carried along by a few Feyenoord fans (and probably other rival fans). Haven't seen them for a long, long while now but i am not in the stadium on a regular basis anymore either.

Did they support the Palestinian cause? Really, really doubt that.

Was all part of the trying to insult the rival fans just as the Ajax fans will never go an opportunity go by to stick the WW2 bombing of Rotterdam in the Feyenoord fans' faces.

The only thing this **** resulted in that now for 5 years or so, there haven't been away fans at Ajax - Feyenoord and Feyenoord - Ajax.

doncarlos

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Let me help you out here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AFC_Ajax#Jewish_connection

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/football-why-tottenham-and-ajax-fans-have-a-jewish-identity-a-926095.html

"Historically, Ajax was popularly seen as having "Jewish roots". Although not an official Jewish club like the city's WV-HEDW, Ajax has had a Jewish image since the 1930s when the home stadium was located next to a Jewish neighbourhood of Amsterdam-Oost and opponents saw many supporters walking through the Nieuwmarkt/Waterloopleinbuurt (de Jodenhoek) to get to the stadium."

What's the connection to Israel? There was no Israel in the 1930s

Drogheda United have a star and crescent on their shirt, so they can fly the flag of a random Muslim state due to their links?

Jelle1880

doncarlos wrote: »

"Historically, Ajax was popularly seen as having "Jewish roots". Although not an official Jewish club like the city's WV-HEDW, Ajax has had a Jewish image since the 1930s when the home stadium was located next to a Jewish neighbourhood of Amsterdam-Oost and opponents saw many supporters walking through the Nieuwmarkt/Waterloopleinbuurt (de Jodenhoek) to get to the stadium."

What's the connection to Israel? There was no Israel in the 1930s

Drogheda United have a star and crescent on their shirt, so they can fly the flag of a random Muslim state due to their links?

Is it really that hard to see the connection between an Israel flag and Jewish links ?

As for the Israeli flag: Variations of it were in use long before the state of Israel was founded.

If Drogheda would have long established links with any local foreign population then sure, i don't see why they shouldn't.

djpbarry

doncarlos wrote: »

Drogheda United have a star and crescent on their shirt, so they can fly the flag of a random Muslim state due to their links?

Sure, why not.

Just maybe not at European games.

dreamers75

St Sjhnstone fined 18k too


http://www.wsc.co.uk/wsc-daily/1186-september-2014/11837-st-johnstone-s-fine-for-palestine-flag-disproportionate

civis_liberalis

Gaza flags to be seen at a few matches around the league since this UEFA farce.

losthorizon

dreamers75 wrote: »

St Sjhnstone fined 18k too


http://www.wsc.co.uk/wsc-daily/1186-september-2014/11837-st-johnstone-s-fine-for-palestine-flag-disproportionate

Funny bit at the end about the banana.

dreamers75

Legia fined 63k£ for their banner.

Dont think its possible to make sense of these fines.

Racist flag 12k euro
Palestine flag 18k euro
slag uefa 80k euro

Dont know if this the lad who had the flag.

[QUOTE=dreamers75;92064938[/QUOTE]

"...when uve got ure self an education"!

inforfun

dreamers75 wrote: »

Wonder if he was waving Dundalk flags at the Israeli embassy and in Gaza....

Been to quite a few football matches in my life, i just went for the football.

CHealy

I'm sure the people of Palestine woke up one morning and said, "you know what, we've got the support of the shedside army of Dundalk, we'll be ok".

tayto lover

What/who is the Shedside Army?
Is it just a crowd of young lads who assemble in the little stand in Oriel Park?

6781

I guess you could say they are Dundalks ultras. ..

Pro. F

Sorry for the late reply, I've been away.

Deleted User wrote: »

Have you been involved in such appeals, or can you at least point to other appeals in the past and the outcomes, which support the idea that they have a "very strong case"? Thanks.

Cos it seems the opposite to me. Dundalk accept that they are subject to scrutiny by a UEFA official, they know the rules and regulations in advance, they can always pull out of competitions if they feel the rules lack definition or consistency. It's very hard to agree to submit to a regime...and then argue afterwards that it wasn't fair.

I'm not going to dredge through convictions and appeals reports for examples of how clearly defined rules are required, along with evidence, for successful prosecutions. It is a logical conclusion of how legal and regulatory systems work.

You accept that yourself when you say: "they know the rules and regulations in advance". If the rule that they are being fined for breaching is not clearly defined and consistently applied then no, Dundalk would not have known it in advance.

Pro. F

djpbarry wrote: »

You appear to be trying to argue against a point I haven’t made. I never said that “the waving of any other national flag - of a country currently engaged in armed conflict - at any game not involving teams/players from that nation” would not represent a political protest.

Your circular logic has thoroughly fúcked up this conversation, so it's time for a reset. Here is a restatement, with added detail for clarity, of my original point that you disagreed with:

"To prove inconsistency all you need to show is that a flag of a country currently involved in armed conflict was waved at a UEFA game that didn't involve teams or players from that country; that the flag was seen by a UEFA official and that nothing was done."

What part of that do you disagree with?

Pro. F

Pro. F wrote: »

Sorry for the late reply, I've been away.


I'm not going to dredge through convictions and appeals reports for examples of how clearly defined rules are required, along with evidence, for successful prosecutions. It is a logical conclusion of how legal and regulatory systems work.

You accept that yourself when you say: "they know the rules and regulations in advance". If the rule that they are being fined for breaching is not clearly defined and consistently applied then no, Dundalk would not have known it in advance.

On the contrary, it is not a logical conclusion of how such systems work at all. In fact, students of modern theories in jurisprudence, like critical legal studies, would say systems are full of arbitrary decision makers making arbitrary decisions that hinge on matters like their own politics, their mood etc. Rules and regulations are not like, say, maths where there might be a right and wrong answer, in football alone we have refs and officials who may interpret and apply rules differently.

They know the rules and regulations in advance. That's completely different from saying that the rule lacks precision or can be applied arbitrarily. Heck, the Dundalk manager is particularly aware of this - see the linked article below. But again they know how clear or unclear they are. If someone is unhappy with the lack of a definition, they are entitled to withdraw.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-/richie-sadlier-dundalk-conspiracy-theories-flag-up-problem-with-fans-30549368.html#sthash.KRe9iYAW.dpuf

.jacksparrow.

CHealy wrote: »

I'm sure the people of Palestine woke up one morning and said, "you know what, we've got the support of the shedside army of Dundalk, we'll be ok".

Or Israel said oh no Palestine has the support of Dundalk fans, we're screwed.

Both points show how utterly pointless this fine is.

losthorizon

Deleted User wrote: »

On the contrary, it is not a logical conclusion of how such systems work at all. In fact, students of modern theories in jurisprudence, like critical legal studies, would say systems are full of arbitrary decision makers making arbitrary decisions that hinge on matters like their own politics, their mood etc. Rules and regulations are not like, say, maths where there might be a right and wrong answer, in football alone we have refs and officials who may interpret and apply rules differently.

They know the rules and regulations in advance. That's completely different from saying that the rule lacks precision or can be applied arbitrarily. Heck, the Dundalk manager is particularly aware of this - see the linked article below. But again they know how clear or unclear they are. If someone is unhappy with the lack of a definition, they are entitled to withdraw.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-/richie-sadlier-dundalk-conspiracy-theories-flag-up-problem-with-fans-30549368.html#sthash.KRe9iYAW.dpuf

Mr Sadlier misses the point though. UEFA are cherry picking their political agenda. Its not directed against Dundalk but it is directed against certain cause and conflicts and not others. So I cant wave a Palestinian Flag but I could wave a Russian flag or a Kosovan Flag. Go to any LOI ground in this country or any where around Europe and you will see banners and flags promoting this and that.

Hard Worker

Pro. F wrote: »

Sorry for the late reply, I've been away.


I'm not going to dredge through convictions and appeals reports for examples of how clearly defined rules are required, along with evidence, for successful prosecutions. It is a logical conclusion of how legal and regulatory systems work.

You accept that yourself when you say: "they know the rules and regulations in advance". If the rule that they are being fined for breaching is not clearly defined and consistently applied then no, Dundalk would not have known it in advance.

They didn't necessarily have to know it in advance. The delegate asked them to remove the flag on the night.

losthorizon

losthorizon wrote: »

Mr Sadlier misses the point though. UEFA are cherry picking their political agenda. Its not directed against Dundalk but it is directed against certain cause and conflicts and not others. So I cant wave a Palestinian Flag but I could wave a Russian flag or a Kosovan Flag. Go to any LOI ground in this country or any where around Europe and you will see banners and flags promoting this and that.

That again is to suggest some conspiracy theory, as if the Jews have particular influence in the corridors of UEFA.

You can wave a Palestinian flag. Many have and it's been fine. And has been already pointed out, in fact a Kosovo message landed Bayern in trouble, so that was a particularly poor example to pick. But this official on this night during the recent flare up said no, repeatedly. The Dundalk fans refused to obey his direction, and so a fine was inevitable.

djpbarry

Pro. F wrote: »

Your circular logic has thoroughly fúcked up this conversation, so it's time for a reset.

There’s nothing circular about my logic at all. You just seem either unwilling, or unable, to accept that, especially when it comes to football, rules and regulations are anything but watertight – they are almost always open to interpretation.

Pro. F wrote: »

Here is a restatement, with added detail for clarity, of my original point that you disagreed with:

"To prove inconsistency all you need to show is that a flag of a country currently involved in armed conflict was waved at a UEFA game that didn't involve teams or players from that country; that the flag was seen by a UEFA official and that nothing was done."

What part of that do you disagree with?

All the above would “prove” is that UEFA was being “inconsistent” according to your definition.

It is entirely possible that a UEFA official could see, for example, a Russian flag at a UEFA game not involving any Russian players or teams, decide to do nothing about it and in no way violate UEFA’s rules governing these matters. You seem to be completely unwilling to accept this.

djpbarry

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Or Israel said oh no Palestine has the support of Dundalk fans…

That probably would be genuine cause for concern, to be honest.

losthorizon

Deleted User wrote: »

That again is to suggest some conspiracy theory, as if the Jews have particular influence in the corridors of UEFA.

You can wave a Palestinian flag. Many have and it's been fine. And has been already pointed out, in fact a Kosovo message landed Bayern in trouble, so that was a particularly poor example to pick. But this official on this night during the recent flare up said no, repeatedly. The Dundalk fans refused to obey his direction, and so a fine was inevitable.

I mentioned Kosovan and loads of other flags and banners in my post.

For instance is a Russian flag illegal? A Morrocan? A Ukrainian?

Its not to suggest some Israeli conspiracy. Its actually to suggest that UEFA are fine to pick on small targets but are very reticent to play by the same ball when the potential targets are big nations.

djpbarry

losthorizon wrote: »

Its actually to suggest that UEFA are fine to pick on small targets but are very reticent to play by the same ball when the potential targets are big nations.

Zenit were fined because their fans burned a German flag during a match against Dortmund.

Jelle1880

djpbarry wrote: »

Zenit were fined because their fans burned a German flag during a match against Dortmund.

Zenit are a small club though, compared to other clubs in Europe.

djpbarry

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Zenit are a small club though...

Bollocks they are.

But anyway, it's already been said several times now that Bayern got into hot water for allowing fans fly a pro-Kosovo banner. I suppose they're a small club too?

Jelle1880

djpbarry wrote: »

Bollocks they are.

But anyway, it's already been said several times now that Bayern got into hot water for allowing fans fly a pro-Kosovo banner. I suppose they're a small club too?

Sure they are.
4 national titles, a few domestic cups, a Europa League Cup and a Supercup.

Not exactly the pedigree of a big club in my opinion.

As for Bayern: This was the same game where their fans displayed the Gay Gunners banner.

They received a partial stadium closure for the Gay Gunners banner (something like 700 seats) and a 10.000 euro fine for the pro-Kosovo banner.

I'm sure they felt that in their finances.

Can you see the disparity between fining a giant club like Bayern such a relatively low sum, or fining a club like Dundalk that is desperate for any cash a sum that could very well have a big impact on them ?

CSF

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Sure they are.
4 national titles, a few domestic cups, a Europa League Cup and a Supercup.

Not exactly the pedigree of a big club in my opinion.

As for Bayern: This was the same game where their fans displayed the Gay Gunners banner.

They received a partial stadium closure for the Gay Gunners banner (something like 700 seats) and a 10.000 euro fine for the pro-Kosovo banner.

I'm sure they felt that in their finances.

Can you see the disparity between fining a giant club like Bayern such a relatively low sum, or fining a club like Dundalk that is desperate for any cash a sum that could very well have a big impact on them ?

To be honest, I think all fines have to be relative to the offence, rather than the financial standing of the clubs in question.

tayto lover

CSF wrote: »

To be honest, I think all fines have to be relative to the offence, rather than the financial standing of the clubs in question.

So flying the Palestinian flag is deserving of a 18K fine then?

inforfun

That is not what he says, now is it?
I understand that he means that it doesnt matter who the club is, the fine should be the same.

tayto lover

inforfun wrote: »

That is not what he says, now is it?
I understand that he means that it doesnt matter who the club is, the fine should be the same.

Ok but how would a small club pay a fine of say 200K?
It would put them out of business surely.

PS
I still think the issue is the Palestinian flag here.

djpbarry

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Sure they are.
4 national titles, a few domestic cups, a Europa League Cup and a Supercup.

Not exactly the pedigree of a big club in my opinion.

As for Bayern: This was the same game where their fans displayed the Gay Gunners banner.

They received a partial stadium closure for the Gay Gunners banner (something like 700 seats) and a 10.000 euro fine for the pro-Kosovo banner.

I'm sure they felt that in their finances.

Can you see the disparity between fining a giant club like Bayern such a relatively low sum, or fining a club like Dundalk that is desperate for any cash a sum that could very well have a big impact on them ?

It was stated that small clubs are being picked on by UEFA. I pointed out that Zenit and Bayern have both been fined recently. You're claiming that Zenit aren't a big club and that Bayern are too big a club to be concerned about the fine.

So it's simultaneously being argued that big clubs don't get punished and that big clubs don't get punished harshly enough - which is it?

djpbarry

tayto lover wrote: »

I still think the issue is the Palestinian flag here.

The fact that other clubs have been hit with similar fines in the absence of any Palestinian flag-waving indicates that it is not.

losthorizon

CSF wrote: »

To be honest, I think all fines have to be relative to the offence, rather than the financial standing of the clubs in question.

So if say a multi millionaire didn't pay his taxes and you fine him €1000

because you fined me €1000 the average worker on an average working mans salary for not paying my taxes.

That really makes no sense It hits me greatly. I will comply no doubt being small and needing the money but for the multi millionaire it actually makes sense to go on avoiding paying his taxes. His fines should be bigger. To argue otherwise makes no sense.

djpbarry

losthorizon wrote: »

So if say a multi millionaire didn't pay his taxes and you fine him €1000

because you fined me €1000 the average worker on an average working mans salary for not paying my taxes.

That really makes no sense It hits me greatly. I will comply no doubt being small and needing the money but for the multi millionaire it actually makes sense to go on avoiding paying his taxes.

Of course it doesn't. If someone refuses to pay taxes due, they will eventually be imprisoned, regardless of their means.

Intifada

Jelle1880

Jewish conspiracy obviously.

Or maybe, just maybe the match official didn't see the flag.

Richard Hillman

Intifada wrote: »

"Dundalk's fine is €18000 but Linfield's fine is less. €15000"

"Two flags from one conflict. Two games 30 miles apart. Same competition. Same night. Only one was fined"

Which one is it?

Jelle1880

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Which one is it?

Linfield were fined for their fans standing.
Which bears a different fine, so all's normal.

Intifada

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Which one is it?

Not sure if you took the time to read all the text but it means only one was fined for the flag, since both were fined for standing yet one received an extra fine.

Didn't make the image anyway just sharing it, hadn't seen the Linfield thing mentioned. All three fines are a joke IMO.

djpbarry

It's common knowledge that all fans at UEFA games must be seated - there's no excuse for that kind of nonsense.

CSF

losthorizon wrote: »

So if say a multi millionaire didn't pay his taxes and you fine him €1000

because you fined me €1000 the average worker on an average working mans salary for not paying my taxes.

That really makes no sense It hits me greatly. I will comply no doubt being small and needing the money but for the multi millionaire it actually makes sense to go on avoiding paying his taxes. His fines should be bigger. To argue otherwise makes no sense.

His offence would naturally be a more severe one because it would involve more money, if it was the same amount of money, his income should have no bearing.

CSF

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Jewish conspiracy obviously.

Or maybe, just maybe the match official didn't see the flag.

Probably is the reason, but it's really not a good one where the evidence is so readily available.

losthorizon

CSF wrote: »

His offence would naturally be a more severe one because it would involve more money, if it was the same amount of money, his income should have no bearing.

But some people on here are arguing the opposite.

And would people please stop using the term "Jewish conspiracy".

Its actually got nothing to do with that. Its more to do with UEFAS lack of steel in being consistent. Treat everybody the same or forget about it.

CSF

losthorizon wrote: »

But some people on here are arguing the opposite.

And would people please stop using the term "Jewish conspiracy".

Its actually got nothing to do with that. Its more to do with UEFAS lack of steel in being consistent. Treat everybody the same or forget about it.

I was replying directly to someone's point about proportionate punishment rather than a general post.

tayto lover

Intifada wrote: »

Just as I thought then.

tayto lover

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Jewish conspiracy obviously.

Or maybe, just maybe the match official didn't see the flag.

"There are none so blind as those who will not see".

Omackeral

I'm hearing some Bohs fans were stopped bringing a Palestine flag into Richmond Park last night. Supposedly there's a video doing the rounds but havent seen anything yet. Anyone got the story?

Pro. F

Deleted User wrote: »

On the contrary, it is not a logical conclusion of how such systems work at all. In fact, students of modern theories in jurisprudence, like critical legal studies, would say systems are full of arbitrary decision makers making arbitrary decisions that hinge on matters like their own politics, their mood etc.

There may be debate about what are the logical conclusions of how legal and regulatory systems work, the conclusions of critical legal studies are far from the last word on the subject. If you don't agree that the requirement for clearly defined rules is a logical conclusion of how legal and regulatory systems work, that's fine. We don't need to debate that particular philosophical question.

The principle of legal certainty covers what I have been talking about with regard to vagueness.

"The legal system needs to permit those subject to the law to regulate their conduct with certainty and to protect those subject to the law from arbitrary use of state power.
"...In the civil law tradition, legal certainty is defined in terms of maximum predictability of officials' behaviour."

Deleted User wrote: »

Rules and regulations are not like, say, maths where there might be a right and wrong answer, in football alone we have refs and officials who may interpret and apply rules differently.

They know the rules and regulations in advance. That's completely different from saying that the rule lacks precision or can be applied arbitrarily. Heck, the Dundalk manager is particularly aware of this - see the linked article below. But again they know how clear or unclear they are. If someone is unhappy with the lack of a definition, they are entitled to withdraw.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-/richie-sadlier-dundalk-conspiracy-theories-flag-up-problem-with-fans-30549368.html#sthash.KRe9iYAW.dpuf

Obviously rules and regulations are not like maths and they need interpretation from officials. I haven't said anything to the contrary. But that is not a licence to make rules and regulations that are so vague that they can be implemented to achieve any arbitrary result. Anybody is entitled to withdraw from the competition, they're also entitled to appeal decisions by the governing body, and it seems to me that vague rules and inconsistent application would provide a good argument for an appeal.

Pro. F

Hard Worker wrote: »

They didn't necessarily have to know it in advance. The delegate asked them to remove the flag on the night.

I was responding to a post that said they would have known in advance.