Tenant and Property Tax?

daveh077

My PAYE has increased over the last two pay checks bringing my overall salary down, I'm waiting to hear back as to why but just to confirm, I'm a tenant renting an apartment, I don't own any property, so this wouldn't be this mandatory property tax being forced out of my wages would it and why would it come out of mine?

Any comments or thoughts would be great!

Eldarion

daveh077 wrote: »

My PAYE has increased over the last two pay checks bringing my overall salary down, I'm waiting to hear back as to why but just to confirm, I'm a tenant renting an apartment, I don't own any property, so this wouldn't be this mandatory property tax being forced out of my wages would it and why would it come out of mine?

Any comments or thoughts would be great!

What kind of basis are you using to identify the increase? What also makes you think it's solely related to PAYE rather than USC or PRSI? Have you been paying tax at the same income level for years or is this just over a number of months?

If this is your first full tax calendar year in employment it could be slightly adjusting upwards to meet your full tax liability. Or a tax credit of yours may have expired. There are quite a number of reasons of why you'd see a reduction in your net take home pay.

generalmental

daveh077 wrote: »

My PAYE has increased over the last two pay checks bringing my overall salary down, I'm waiting to hear back as to why but just to confirm, I'm a tenant renting an apartment, I don't own any property, so this wouldn't be this mandatory property tax being forced out of my wages would it and why would it come out of mine?

Any comments or thoughts would be great!

You will know have a barage of LLs screaming at you that you should be paying the property tax because you live there.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

generalmental wrote: »

You will know have a barage of LLs screaming at you that you should be paying the property tax because you live there.

It's an ownership tax.

shruikan2553

It isn't unknown to happen. It could be many things but property tax isn't out of the question. HR should be able to help you, if not try calling revenue. You'll have to contact them anyway if it is the property tax.

Eldarion

generalmental wrote: »

You will know have a barage of LLs screaming at you that you should be paying the property tax because you live there.

Let's see if it happens before you try someone for a crime they didn't commit.

Property tax is present in pretty much every western country, you could argue that the tax is factored into the rent paid but more often than not it's the Landlords paying the tax directly.

Banjoxed

daveh077 wrote: »

My PAYE has increased over the last two pay checks bringing my overall salary down, I'm waiting to hear back as to why but just to confirm, I'm a tenant renting an apartment, I don't own any property, so this wouldn't be this mandatory property tax being forced out of my wages would it and why would it come out of mine?

Any comments or thoughts would be great!

Yes. If you lived in the UK you would have to pay Council Tax as a resident. Ownership status irrelevant.

Time to write to my TD advocating this, thanks for reminding me

Cuddlesworth

daveh077 wrote: »

My PAYE has increased over the last two pay checks bringing my overall salary down, I'm waiting to hear back as to why but just to confirm, I'm a tenant renting an apartment, I don't own any property, so this wouldn't be this mandatory property tax being forced out of my wages would it and why would it come out of mine?

Any comments or thoughts would be great!

Ha, welcome to my world. It will show up as a LPT deduction. It might not even be for that apartment but could instead be one you lived in up to 5 years ago, as you were the last PAYE worker registered there.

In my case they sent the warning letters to the property I don't live at. No email, no mails to my current address, no phone calls and no warning from my employer that a new deduction had been added to my wages.

I'm five months into discovering the charges and so far I'm still being charged LPT off my wages. My refund check was sent to the address I don't live at and will not be reissued. The LPT helpline can't help, as you don't own a property. There is nobody in Revenue you can talk to, you have to go to the LPT helpline.

I wish you the best of luck. In my case, I'm just waiting till the amount taken justify's a lawyer.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

Banjoxed wrote: »

Yes. If you lived in the UK you would have to pay Council Tax as a resident. Ownership status irrelevant.

Time to write to my TD advocating this, thanks for reminding me

This isn't the UK:rolleyes:

Banjoxed

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

This isn't the UK:rolleyes:

Had noticed. Still writing.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

Banjoxed wrote: »

Had noticed. Still writing.

Off you go
It will be a cold day in hell before I would advocate paying a wealth/ownership tax on an asset I did not own.

Mrs OBumble

OP, instead of speculating, ring Revenue and ask them to send you a copy of your current tax-credits certificate, and to explain what your credits situation is this year and last and how it's changed.

If they mention Local Property Tax, then you need to raise the issue.

If not, then it's something else. Have you got married, changed jobs, underpaid tax in a previuos job - there are lots of issues that may have caused this.

Eldarion

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

Off you go
It will be a cold day in hell before I would advocate paying a wealth/ownership tax on an asset I did not own.

I heard similar sentiments about bin charges. I'm hearing the same thing about water charges. Neither of those are going away.

Your advocacy isn't a requirement. Only your inaction.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

Eldarion wrote: »

I heard similar sentiments about bin charges. I'm hearing the same thing about water charges. Neither of those are going away.

Your advocacy isn't a requirement. Only your inaction.

Water charges, Bin charges are both utility charges and as the tenant is using the utilities being charged for, they have no relevance.

The taxing of an asset solely based on its valuation/size and not encompassing the provision of any utility or service, is not a usage tax and thus should not be the responsibility of the tenant.

Eldarion

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

Water charges, Bin charges are both utility charges and as the tenant is using the utilities being charged for, they have no relevance.

The taxing of an asset solely based on its valuation/size and not encompassing the provision of any utility or service, is not a usage tax and thus should not be the responsibility of the tenant.

Council tax is a charge for the amenities and local services provided in the area in which you reside. The tax in this case would be the usage of said amenities and services. Thus, the charge should be responsibility of the resident.

daveh077

Thanks all for your quick replies.

So apparently it's a tax thing, something to do with my tax percentage finally catching up from a small raise i got a while ago. I'm told I'll stabilize on a firm figure going forward, slightly lower figure of course.

Ya can't win can ya :-)

Eldarion

daveh077 wrote: »

Thanks all for your quick replies.

So apparently it's a tax thing, something to do with my tax percentage finally catching up from a small raise i got a while ago. I'm told I'll stabilize on a firm figure going forward, slightly lower figure of course.

Ya can't win can ya :-)

Nope, you can't. This >50% effective tax rate on any income increases is getting really old, really fast.

generalmental

Eldarion wrote: »

Nope, you can't. This >50% effective tax rate on any income increases is getting really old, really fast.

So what are your options then.

Eldarion

generalmental wrote: »

So what are your options then.

Emigration?

Enda keeps promising an income tax reduction, we have him quoted as saying a >50% tax rate was never intended. Hopefully he follows through.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

Eldarion wrote: »

Council tax is a charge for the amenities and local services provided in the area in which you reside. The tax in this case would be the usage of said amenities and services. Thus, the charge should be responsibility of the resident.

We aren't paying a council tax.
We are discussing the Property Tax - which is a wealth tax, taxing those who can afford to own an asset.

generalmental

Eldarion wrote: »

Emigration?

Enda keeps promising an income tax reduction, we have him quoted as saying a >50% tax rate was never intended. Hopefully he follows through.

Enda said/says lots of things the majority of them being untruths.
That is my plan anyway, I am starting my first year in college as a mature student this year but hopefully when I finish I will get a year or two experience in this country.
Then its like what 1 shepherd said to the other "Lets get the flock outta here"

Eldarion

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

We aren't paying a council tax.
We are discussing the Property Tax - which is a wealth tax, taxing those who can afford to own an asset.

Except your cold day in hell post was directed solely at a poster who suggested writing a TD to bring in Council tax.

Just to clarify, I under no circumstances believe anyone should pay tax on an asset that is not their own. But it's naive to think this tax won't be pushed on to tenants in the form of increased rents.

Mrs OBumble

Eldarion wrote: »

Nope, you can't. This >50% effective tax rate on any income increases is getting really old, really fast.

Many people out there would regard that as a nice problem to have. Low paid workers face a far worse trap:

"an increase in gross pay from €352 to €355 means an employee is significantly worse off because they now pay 4% Employee PRSI on the full €355 and not just the amount over €352."

ref: http://optimpayroll.com/prsi-earning-bands/



I guess that those of you who regard emigration as a problem to the middle-class burden should avoid countries that do have a council-residents tax as opposed to a property-owners tax.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

Eldarion wrote: »

Except your cold day in hell post was directed solely at a poster who suggested writing a TD to bring in Council tax.

Just to clarify, I under no circumstances believe anyone should pay tax on an asset that is not their own. But it's naive to think this tax won't be pushed on to tenants in the form of increased rents.

I took his post meaning that he wanted to request to a TD that he clarify the Irish property tax as being the same as the UK council tax - as in that was that poster's interpretation of the current situation.

If I've taken that view incorrectly then I apologize.

Eldarion

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

I took his post meaning that he wanted to request to a TD that he clarify the Irish property tax as being the same as the UK council tax - as in that was that poster's interpretation of the current situation.

If I've taken that view incorrectly then I apologize.

I think we're in agreement tbh. I'd hate to see council tax being introduced here and agree that it's the property owner who should of course be the one paying the property tax.

My point was simply that whether or not we agree/advocate either of these is quite meaningless as can be seen with the current water charges roll out. If the government decides to implement it, they'll implement it with or without our consent.

murphaph

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Ha, welcome to my world. It will show up as a LPT deduction. It might not even be for that apartment but could instead be one you lived in up to 5 years ago, as you were the last PAYE worker registered there.

In my case they sent the warning letters to the property I don't live at. No email, no mails to my current address, no phone calls and no warning from my employer that a new deduction had been added to my wages.

I'm five months into discovering the charges and so far I'm still being charged LPT off my wages. My refund check was sent to the address I don't live at and will not be reissued. The LPT helpline can't help, as you don't own a property. There is nobody in Revenue you can talk to, you have to go to the LPT helpline.

I wish you the best of luck. In my case, I'm just waiting till the amount taken justify's a lawyer.

Yet another case of official Ireland sending the bill to someone who isn't even liable. It seems this tactic is gaining in popularity rather than doing things properly to begin with.

The_Conductor

Eldarion wrote: »

I think we're in agreement tbh. I'd hate to see council tax being introduced here and agree that it's the property owner who should of course be the one paying the property tax.

My point was simply that whether or not we agree/advocate either of these is quite meaningless as can be seen with the current water charges roll out. If the government decides to implement it, they'll implement it with or without our consent.

Its called the 'Local Property Tax' though- for a reason- its stated aim is to fund the provision of facilities and amenities locally. In almost any other country it would be paid directly, as a service charge, to the residents of property- be they owner occupiers, tenants, commercial units or whatever. Some countries have deductions available for owner occupiers- or special rates for areas they are attempting to gentrify.`With respect of charging landlords the tax- it is a form of double taxation- as they're paying tax on the rental income anyway.

While you may say its a wealth tax- there is no cognisance of the simple fact that most people have mortgages- so they don't own the property they have borrowed money and there is a lien on the property until such time as the loan is repaid. So- if you want to call borrowed money wealth- fine, but by most people's understanding- its not wealth- its a debt that must be repaid- and until such time as its repaid, they do not have free and unencumbered access to the asset- they do not own the asset in question.

We have a register of property ownership. Its quite definitive. We have an aggressive agency tasked with management of the LPT. We have good collection mechanisms. By moving the tax onto the resident rather than the owner- or by charging a body other than the Revenue Commissioners with collection of the charge- it would be widely evaded and deeply inequitable.

Yes- it will inevitably be viewed by both landlords and tenants as a part of the rent (regardless of whether the rent goes up or not)- and the landlords are convenient scapegoats in this equation- when they are effectively collection agents for the government, because they're easier to chase than the tenants themselves. As for everyone else- well, they live in the local authority area- and 85% of the tax goes towards paying for facilities in their local authority area (and 15% is ringfenced for those authorities who are unable to fund their own activities- notably those with low population densities)- so it is a council tax- by a different name.........

Its an Irish solution to an Irish problem.........

Mrs OBumble

The_Conductor wrote: »

Its called the 'Local Property Tax' though- for a reason- its stated aim is to fund the provision of facilities and amenities locally. In almost any other country it would be paid directly, as a service charge, to the residents of property- be they owner occupiers, tenants, commercial units or whatever.

Have you a source for that? Wikipedia certainly seems to think that lots of countries do have a "a levy on property that the owner is required to pay."

ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_tax


There is one error in that article though: New Zealand does have form form of property tax, called "rates", which is calculated based on the value of the property and payable by the owner.

The_Conductor

France:

Taxe Foncière - ownership charge
Taxe d'Habitation - resident charge for local authority facilities/amenities

UK:

Council tax - resident charge for local authority facilities/amenities (in most cases, but not all, it also includes refuse collection)

Italy:

Cedolare Secca - can be nominated by the landlord as a tenant tax payable directly to the Italian tax authorities, instead of the landlord declaring rental income from the leasing of rental property. The rate varies between 16% and 22% of which 2% is ringfenced for local authority use.

Germany:

Grundsteuerbescheid - current disputes over who is responsible to pay for it- some of the Lander make the landlord pay, others the tenant.

Poland:

Local council tax paid directly to Gmina by tenant of is approximately 200PLN per annum (seems very low to me?)

Finland:

Municipalities levy a flat rate income tax on all residents in addition to taxation by central government- to pay for local public services. Its actually a percent of income- typically around 20%- and covers all manner of things including childcare, parks and amenities etc (but not roads and infrastructure- they are covered by central government).

Israel:

It is the tenant's duty to pay 'arnona' which is a municipal tax to cover local facilities and amenities. Tenant must also pay the landlord separate 'vad bayit' to cover any building maintenance- but is entitled to itemised billing for the building maintenance.

Would you like me to keep going?

Mrs OBumble

I don't think you're telling the full story about the UK: council Tax is listed as an expense that a landlord may claim to reduce their tax liability.
ref: https://www.gov.uk/renting-out-a-property/paying-tax This council gives a nice list of some situations where it is the owner, rather than the resident who is liable to pay: http://www.adur-worthing.gov.uk/council-tax/what-is-council-tax/ And this article gives some more detail about owners liabilities: https://www.gov.uk/council-tax/second-homes-and-empty-properties


So far we have

Owner pays:
Australia
Canada
New Zealand
The UK - sometimes
Chile
Denmark
Greece - four of 5 types
Hong Kong
Jamacia
India
The Netherlands - one part of the tax
Egypt
The US
Italy - in some cases
Germany - current disputes over who is responsible to pay for it



Resident pays:
The UK - as the first option, but not in all cases
Greece - because one part of it is paid with the electricity bill, I guess it is paid by tenants
The Netherlands - the other part of the tax
France
Italy - in some cases
Germany - current disputes over who is responsible to pay for it
Poland
Finland - except that it's actually a for of local government-levied income tax, not a property tax as such
Israel



From that I don't think it's fair to say that in "almost any other country" the tenant pays.

You could almost say "internationally there's a mix of situations, but leaning towards the owner being liable more often than not".