How to drop your crime rate 20% - issue gun permits to residents

Witcher

Bongalongherb wrote: »

Again, you cannot take the gun outside ever, this is the rule. If you want to practice shooting, you will have to join a firing range using their guns, as you will not be carrying said gun home with you as it belongs to the range. It's not that hard to understand this scenario.

That makes no sense at all. You're either safe to use, carry and possess it or you're not. A person pulling out a gun they don't regularly use will cause the very accident you're trying to avoid.

Witcher

Bongalongherb wrote: »

Not all parents would have the brainpower to be able to pass many stringent tests regarding my point, but the ones that do would be competent and fully understand the safety issues and how to properly deal with a situation like this.

Not everyone would be able to pass, or feel confident in this situation but the ones that are... well they get the licence of competence.

What would these 'stringent tests' involve?

Tail Docker

Blay wrote: »

What would these 'stringent tests' involve?

They'd have to shoot a few burglars with a water pistol first. That test passed, they get the real deal. They have to wear N plates though when shooting future burglars until they hit double figures.

wendell borton

Nearly every home in Switzerland has a gun, as all able bodied men are conscripted and trained to use them and ate required to keep them at home.
Their just not allowed any ammo at home.

Tail Docker

wendell borton wrote: »

Nearly every home in Switzerland has a gun, as all able bodied men are conscripted and trained to use them and ate required to keep them at home.
Their just not allowed any ammo at home.

No wonder they're always neutral. What do they do, shout "Bang! Bang!"?

Witcher

wendell borton wrote: »

Nearly every home in Switzerland has a gun, as all able bodied men are conscripted and trained to use them and ate required to keep them at home.
Their just not allowed any ammo at home.

Yes they are, they used to be issued ammo for the duration of their military service which could only be opened if they were called up, that's gone now.

They're free to possess and use their own ammo seperate to that. Shooting is big sport in Switzerland.

Bongalongherb

Blay wrote: »

So a person is automatically considered unsafe to carry and use a firearm..the best thing in that case is to not give them one at all.

If you're under pressure and fumbling with a firearm you are unused to handling ( because under your system you can never practice with it) you will definitely have an accident.

You failed to read my previous post #195

Bongalongherb

@ Blay

I take it you are from the states ?. If so, your country folk always had guns obviously, but I'm looking at this from a new perspective here in Ireland as training people for the first time would be a different ball-game than the states. You would obviously look at this a different way as you have always been used to the gun culture.

garv123

Bongalongherb wrote: »

You failed to read my previous post #195

So, you have a gun locked in a safe and unloaded and the key to the safe also should be a hide. because as you said, you need to keep the gun away from kids and with kids telling them dont touch the key wont always work..

Now you might hear someone downstairs and have time to get the key, go to the safe and open it and take out said gun..

But what happens if said person is in the hallway before you wake?

Someone wont want to pay huge money for range membership either to practice with a different gun in a sport they have no interest in..

Witcher

Bongalongherb wrote: »

@ Blay

I take it you are from the states ?. If so, your country folk always had guns obviously, but I'm looking at this from a new perspective here in Ireland as training people for the first time would be a different ball-game than the states. You would obviously look at this a different way as you have always been used to the gun culture.

I'm Irish and a firearm owner:pac:

Witcher

Bongalongherb wrote: »

You failed to read my previous post #195

Based on your point in the post you linked I'm going to assume you're not a shooter because if you were you would know that you cannot practice with one firearm and transfer that to another. Especially with a pistol.

I shoot with people that have exactly the same make/model of firearm as I do but I can't use their one as well as I can use my own because there are subtle differences etc. It's not as simple as practice with one, and shoot burglars with another.

(If every gun was alike target shooters wouldn't buy their own to use and practice with, ranges would just have a load of rifles for people to use on the premises.)

Also what is the procedure for mandatory retesting/recertification? Surely someone couldn't go through these tests, never practice(be it with their own firearm or one at a range) and still be allowed to possess and use the firearm years down the line.




On top of that, we also now have two categories of people with firearms; those who have them for sport and can waltz to and from the range with them and those who have them for defence, have even undergone extra tests etc. but cannot take them out?

Meaning that the people who really require the extra practice have their hands tied.

garv123

Blay wrote: »

I'm Irish and a firearm owner:pac:

Aren't guns illegal in Ireland though?

Bongalongherb

garv123 wrote: »

So, you have a gun locked in a safe and unloaded and the key to the safe also should be a hide. because as you said, you need to keep the gun away from kids and with kids telling them dont touch the key wont always work..

Now you might hear someone downstairs and have time to get the key, go to the safe and open it and take out said gun..

But what happens if said person is in the hallway before you wake?

Someone wont want to pay huge money for range membership either to practice with a different gun in a sport they have no interest in..

Who uses keys these days ? that's crazy, it's all combination locks. No way would I use a key because then you have to find the key or where you left it. You just remember the pass-code for the combo-lock in your head like a numerical internet password scenario and that will do it fast. No need for keys in this day and age.

I would feel like I was living in the stone-age if I had to use a physical key to open my safe to be honest. Combination is the proper easy fast way to gain access, and only You know it.

Irish Guitarist

http://abcnews.go.com/US/fedex-shooting-results-multiple-injuries/story?id=23511924

You only have to look at the comments to see how delusional American gun nutjobs are.

EVERYONE who is not a criminal should have the RIGHT to be armed ANYWHERE, especially at work. You never know when a felon with a grudge might come shooting with his illegal gun. When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

They seem to think it's only 'illegal guns' that kill innocent people, even in a town where it's the law that everyone carries a gun.

Bongalongherb

Well, in regards to this thread, my only concern is to folk living on their own, or with a family and young children and allowing them to protect themselves.

The problem here in Ireland is the fact that scumbags purposely go on a drive down the country and steal guns from farmers or rob a gun-shop and use these against the people above while breaking into their homes while they are asleep and while their children are asleep.

I believe an intelligent, knowledgeable person of good moral standing should be allowed a hand-gun for home protection, because look what has happened in the past with scumbags breaking into family homes and battering the parents and then look again at how this affects their kids when they see this.

I'd put my trust in a family man/woman with a gun protecting their family from invasion than I would with a scumbag drugged up cockroach. Once a few heads/scumbags invade your home and all you have is a baton or knife, you can't do anything but accept what comes next in it's horror while a gun or two is forwarded to your, or your child's head.

Most criminals can easily get a gun we all know this, but when they enter your home in the middle of the night/morning, they can do what they like because you are not armed.

Criminals running rampage in Ireland shooting other people dead all the time seems to be a normal thing for this government, but they have 24 hour protection, so in their world they don't need to think of owning a gun because they are protected by armed officers. But let them live in the real world in relation to living in the back-arse of the sticks with no gun while being invaded by drugged up head-cases with guns and see what they would think.

All country folk should be first on the list to receive a hand-gun licence because they have no other protection for themselves and their family when the garda stations have all but mostly been shut-down. No response-time.

Markcheese

Blay wrote: »

Children wouldn't need any protection from the gun in those instances, the dopes holding them were the danger.

I'm regularly around firearms and I've never felt in danger from a firearm, it's an inanimate object. It becomes dangerous when idiots mess with it which can be said for any number of other items.

True ... Any tool is only as dangerous as the idiot holding /pointing it... The world is full of idiots though...

willmunny1990

http://news.sky.com/story/1325316/girl-accidentally-kills-gun-instructor-with-uzi

God bless America.

Bongalongherb

God bless Ireland. As if that will ever happen. The criminals seem to be blessed though.

y0ssar1an22

Before this ever happens they will need to change the self-defense laws. What are they by the way? Can you kill someone in self-defense in Ireland right now?

Nino Brown

Bongalongherb wrote: »

Well, in regards to this thread, my only concern is to folk living on their own, or with a family and young children and allowing them to protect themselves.

The problem here in Ireland is the fact that scumbags purposely go on a drive down the country and steal guns from farmers or rob a gun-shop and use these against the people above while breaking into their homes while they are asleep and while their children are asleep.

I believe an intelligent, knowledgeable person of good moral standing should be allowed a hand-gun for home protection, because look what has happened in the past with scumbags breaking into family homes and battering the parents and then look again at how this affects their kids when they see this.

I'd put my trust in a family man/woman with a gun protecting their family from invasion than I would with a scumbag drugged up cockroach. Once a few heads/scumbags invade your home and all you have is a baton or knife, you can't do anything but accept what comes next in it's horror while a gun or two is forwarded to your, or your child's head.

Most criminals can easily get a gun we all know this, but when they enter your home in the middle of the night/morning, they can do what they like because you are not armed.

Criminals running rampage in Ireland shooting other people dead all the time seems to be a normal thing for this government, but they have 24 hour protection, so in their world they don't need to think of owning a gun because they are protected by armed officers. But let them live in the real world in relation to living in the back-arse of the sticks with no gun while being invaded by drugged up head-cases with guns and see what they would think.

All country folk should be first on the list to receive a hand-gun licence because they have no other protection for themselves and their family when the garda stations have all but mostly been shut-down. No response-time.

The problem with handguns is that they can be concealed, and are ideal for use in crimes. Also they require a lot of practice to become proficient with. And it's very hard to train for high stress situations like a break in, it only takes a slight shake in you hand for an handgun to be essentially useless. Combine that with the extra penetration of a bullet, and you could end up missing the burglar and hitting somebody elsewhere in the house.
Shotguns are less likely to penetrate walls, easier to hit a target with, in high stress situation, and less suitable for crimes.
That's why I think allowing the use of shotguns for self defence is reasonable. I would like to have a handgun, because I like them, but in general I don't think we need them in Ireland.

Also you don't need a safe for a shotgun, allowing for easier access. They just need a trigger lock.

Nino Brown

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

Before this ever happens they will need to change the self-defense laws. What are they by the way? Can you kill someone in self-defense in Ireland right now?

The law already allows for the use of reasonable force, up to and including lethal force in self defence, including the use of firearms.

Calina

MadsL wrote: »

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/aug/24/chicago-crime-rate-drops-as-concealed-carry-gun-pe/

Illinois used to have a ban on private handgun carrying, and Chicago required the registration of all firearms but did not allow handguns to be registered, however following a Supreme Court decision, Illinois enacted the Firearm Concealed Carry Act and private registrations are on track to ht 100,000 by the end of the year.

Whilst correlation is not causation, Reports of burglary and motor vehicle theft are down 20 percent and 26 percent, respectively. In the first quarter, the city’s homicide rate was at a 56-year low.

Time to rethink Ireland's gun laws?

eh, no. Come back when you can prove that correlation is causation in this case, before that, not time to review Ireland's gun laws.

also, what would be useful is a straight comparison of crime issues in Illinois compared with crime issues in Ireland, and a review of any possible confounding factors.

Anything else is just misusing statistics.

InTheTrees

garv123 wrote: »

Aren't guns illegal in Ireland though?

Of course they aren't.

MadsL

Tail Docker wrote: »

Or, radical I know, -tell the kids they're not allowed touch the gun? Ever.

Or teach your kids gun safety and how to treat all firearms as loaded, and what to do if they see an unattended firearm.

Markcheese wrote: »

Okay ,you get a gun to protect your kids from bad guys, (when was the last time that someone you know was threatened by intruders in the home) .
Now what are you going to get to protect your kids from the gun ... ( I can think of three instances of people I know having gun accidents luckily no one hurt, 2 were overseas, 1 here)

March last year?
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/two-men-sentenced-to-seven-years-for-violent-home-invasion-30087738.html
or last Saturday?
http://www.irishsun.com/index.php/sid/225035287/scat/aba4168066a10b8d

garv123 wrote: »

So, you have a gun locked in a safe and unloaded and the key to the safe also should be a hide. because as you said, you need to keep the gun away from kids and with kids telling them dont touch the key wont always work..

Now you might hear someone downstairs and have time to get the key, go to the safe and open it and take out said gun..

But what happens if said person is in the hallway before you wake?

Most people who keep handguns for home defence keep them in biometrically operated safes that offer instant access beside their bed.

Bongalongherb wrote: »

Combination is the proper easy fast way to gain access, and only You know it.

if you can unlock your iphone with a fingerprint, bet a biometric safe is faster than your combo lock

Calina wrote: »

eh, no. Come back when you can prove that correlation is causation in this case, before that, not time to review Ireland's gun laws.

also, what would be useful is a straight comparison of crime issues in Illinois compared with crime issues in Ireland, and a review of any possible confounding factors.

Anything else is just misusing statistics.

It was actually intended as a jumping off point for discussion.

garv123

InTheTrees wrote: »

Of course they aren't.

It was a piss take. plenty of people actually believe theyre illegal.

roadsmart

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/08/26/us/arizona-girl-fatal-shooting-accident/index.html

MadsL

roadsmart wrote: »

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/08/26/us/arizona-girl-fatal-shooting-accident/index.html

Theres's a thread on it already.

roadsmart

I know, but do you not think it's relevant here?

Nino Brown

roadsmart wrote: »

I know, but do you not think it's relevant here?

Not really, it was an accident, the girl was holding a gun that was too powerful for her, and wasn't being supervised carefully enough.
These things happen all the time, not just with guns, remember the time a Russian pilot let his young child fly the plane, the plane crashed and killed everybody on board, should we ban planes then?

roadsmart

Let's see now. A thread asking should Ireland relax it's gun laws to the degree of america's, and at the same time an american 9 yr old accidentally kills her instructor whilst being taught how to fire an UZI sub machine gun.
Only an idiot couldn't see the relevance.

Nino Brown

roadsmart wrote: »

Let's see now. A thread asking should Ireland relax it's gun laws to the degree of america's, and at the same time an american 9 yr old accidentally kills her instructor whilst being taught how to fire an UZI sub machine gun.
Only an idiot couldn't see the relevance.

Do you really think no 9 year old in Ireland has ever fired a gun? US gun laws do not allow that child to own a gun, she was allowed to fire it under supervision, the problem was with the supervision, not the gun laws. Which US gun law do you think is responsible for that accident?
Accidents will happen with guns, they happen all the time here too, but you can't ban something because accidents happen
Should be we ban golf?
http://golf.heraldtribune.com/2010/11/29/death-by-golf-ball-not-all-that-uncommon/
I don't remember anybody suggesting we adopt US gun laws, we have some of the most draconian gun laws in the world, all I remember is people calling for a review, or a loosening, nobody is recommending we all have uzis.

Grayson

Nino Brown wrote: »

Do you really think no 9 year old in Ireland has ever fired a gun? US gun laws do not allow that child to own a gun, she was allowed to fire it under supervision, the problem was with the supervision, not the gun laws. Which US gun law do you think is responsible for that accident?
Accidents will happen with guns, they happen all the time here too, but you can't ban something because accidents happen
Should be we ban golf?
http://golf.heraldtribune.com/2010/11/29/death-by-golf-ball-not-all-that-uncommon/
I don't remember anybody suggesting we adopt US gun laws, we have some of the most draconian gun laws in the world, all I remember is people calling for a review, or a loosening, nobody is recommending we all have uzis.

Your right, the OP wants to be able to walk around carrying a concealed firearm. Completly different and harmless.

personally i think that anyone who feels they need to carry a handgun in Ireland is batsh1t fcuking crazy.

Nino Brown

Grayson wrote: »

Your right, the OP wants to be able to walk around carrying a concealed firearm. Completly different and harmless.

personally i think that anyone who feels they need to carry a handgun in Ireland is batsh1t fcuking crazy.

I wouldn't say bats!it crazy, but I agree that it would do more harm than good. Handguns are a lot of fun, but we don't need them for self defense here.

Sparks

MadsL wrote: »

Time to rethink Ireland's gun laws?

The way you're talking about? No, because the statistics you're talking about have no weight - the NAS discredited every single paper published for or against this idea a few years ago. We just don't have any data we can trust. Which isn't how you go about making major policy shifts.

That's not to say the law doesn't need changing, but that's more because it's spread across more than 19 acts, 50-60 statutory instruments and two EU directives and there can't be more than three or four dozen people in the entire state - government included - who have a solid working understanding of it (and if you show me someone who says he or she is an expert in it, I'll show you someone who's woefully overestimating their abilities).

Sparks

Grayson wrote: »

personally i think that anyone who feels they need to carry a handgun in Ireland is batsh1t fcuking crazy.

You might not want to mention that to the ERU

Sparks

wendell borton wrote: »

Nearly every home in Switzerland has a gun, as all able bodied men are conscripted and trained to use them and ate required to keep them at home.
Their just not allowed any ammo at home.

No, they're legally required to keep a few hundred rounds (in a sealed container) at home for the assault rifles you're thinking of. But it's not "nearly every" home in Switzerland. More households than in the US in percentage terms if I recall correctly though.

The reason the Americans have huge gun violence problems and the Swiss have virtually none? Nobody knows for certain. Their culture probably plays a large part in it though.

MadsL

Sparks wrote: »

The way you're talking about? No, because the statistics you're talking about have no weight - the NAS discredited every single paper published for or against this idea a few years ago. We just don't have any data we can trust. Which isn't how you go about making major policy shifts.

That's not to say the law doesn't need changing, but that's more because it's spread across more than 19 acts, 50-60 statutory instruments and two EU directives and there can't be more than three or four dozen people in the entire state - government included - who have a solid working understanding of it (and if you show me someone who says he or she is an expert in it, I'll show you someone who's woefully overestimating their abilities).

Merely a jumping off point for discussion. I personally think the UK and Ireland's de facto ban on handguns is pretty ludicrous, and particularly harsh on target shooters.

Sparks

Markcheese wrote: »

Are any laws relaxed in Switzerland ??
Are HANDguns easy to obtain legally there... Would have thought wandering around a Swiss city with a shotgun or rifle slung over your shoulder would bring down all kinds of trouble on you..

Er, no. Until very recently you could walk into the Swiss equivalent to the Dail viewing gallery with a pistol in your pocket if you wanted to, there was no law against it (and people presumably did at some point). As to walking about with a rifle or shotgun over your shoulder...

http://unitedcats.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/swiss_gun_owner.jpg
http://bunkerville.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/swiss2.jpg

It's just not that big a deal there, that's the culture.

Sparks

MadsL wrote: »

Merely a jumping off point for discussion. I personally think the UK and Ireland's de facto ban on handguns is pretty ludicrous, and particularly harsh on target shooters.

Well our de facto ban's only on centerfire handguns (and if you owned one of those before 2008 you can still legally own it). It's a stupid ban in both conception and execution, I agree (any ban aimed at Glocks that also catches paintball guns and makes possession or use of one punishable by €20,000 fines and seven years in prison is a ban that needs rethinking) -- but it's a long way from thinking that ban is stupid to thinking we should massively alter our firearms law and culture to explicitly permit having firearms for self-defence (and that's not a change I'd like to see happening either).