more irish water nonsense

VinLieger

papu wrote: »

Will you be asking for those 3 weeks off your TV license too?

TV is not a resource utility that you are charged for by the amount you use so that comparison is pointless

Phoebas

Daith wrote: »

When myself and my housemate are out of the country for three weeks in Nov, could we ask Irish Water not to bill us for those three weeks?

If you have a meter just don't leave the taps running and you'll be ok.

Daith

Phoebas wrote: »

If you have a meter just don't leave the taps running and you'll be ok.

We won't have a meter. Thanks!

I can tell Tesco to stop delivering our weekly shopping for that three weeks!

Banjo String

kneemos wrote: »

The Government wouldn't need a contract to impose charges,a private company might though.

This is why I'm confused.

Why the need for a contract to begin with, and why dupe homeowners by portraying it as an information pack/application for free allowances?

Timberrrrrrrr

Daith wrote: »

When myself and my housemate are out of the country for three weeks in Nov, could we ask Irish Water not to bill us for those three weeks?

Do you ask your insurance company to knock 3 weeks off your car insurance?

Ask ESB to knock off 3 weeks charge?

Ask to knock 3 weeks off your car tax?

How about knocking 3 weeks off your Sky/UPC tv and broadband?

Daith

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Do you ask your insurance company to knock 3 weeks off your car insurance?

Not a valid comparison. Insurance is not a utility bill.

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Ask ESB to knock off 3 weeks charge?

It will be reflected in my bill. I don't need to ask them.

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Ask to knock 3 weeks off your car tax?

Not a valid comparison.

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

How about knocking 3 weeks off your Sky/UPC tv and broadband?

We signed up for a one year contract so again not a valid comparison.

Can you just compare utility bills versus utility bills? Cheers!

papu

VinLieger wrote: »

TV is not a resource utility that you are charged for by the amount you use so that comparison is pointless

A bill is a bill , "resource utilities" aren't paid for by special euros.

Banjo String

Phoebas wrote: »

If you refuse to engage with them and you don't have a meter you'll be billed by them per the 'default assessed charge' (page 7 of the application guide).

Any idea that you don't have to pay because you refuse to enter a 'contract' with them is just freeman style nonsense.

Yeah, but I'm curious here.

No contract, no meter, I dont know what the long-term effect will be if thousands of homeowners don't engage, and refuse to pay.

If they're taken to court, say they never asked to be customers etc, can a court rule they must pay, or stop availing of the services.

How will they be able to tell if a customer did use the services without a meter, or how will they stop them using services without a meter?

Could be a very costly experiment by Irish Water and the government.

Daith

papu wrote: »

A bill is a bill , "resource utilities" aren't paid for by special euros.

As I said both my gas and electricity utility bill would reflect those three weeks. My water utility bill would not.

Compare like with like. Jesus.

Banjo String

papu wrote: »

Hopefully no water .

How will they stop them accessing the water without the, er, meter?

They put the horse before the cart here.

Timberrrrrrrr

Daith wrote: »

Not a valid comparison. Insurance is not a utility bill.



It will be reflected in my bill. I don't need to ask them.


Not a valid comparison.



We signed up for a one year contract so again not a valid comparison.

Can you just compare utility bills versus utility bills? Cheers!

You are paying for a service, You won;t be using that service for 3 weeks so why not ask them to cancel payment for those 3 weeks? Also when metering comes in and you are charged per liter then it will be reflected in your bill that you haven't used water for 3weeks right? Bord gais and the ESB charge a standard usage per month, If you don't use any electricity for 3 weeks you will still be billed standard charge FOR THOSE 3 WEEKS.

papu

Banjo String wrote: »

How will they stop them accessing the water without the, er, meter?

They put the horse before the cart here.

Lock on the stopcock.

Daith

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

You are paying for a service, You won;t be using that service for 3 weeks so why not ask them to cancel payment for those 3 weeks?

You are comparing a year contract like insurance with a utility charge. Meaningless comparison.

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Bord gais and the ESB charge a standard usage per month, If you don't use any electricity for 3 weeks you will still be billed standard charge FOR THOSE 3 WEEKS.

Yes the standing charge but Irish Water will charge me THE FULL AMOUNT! Would you have an issue if ESB or Bord Gais charged you for using their services when you didn't?

Banjo String

papu wrote: »

Lock on the stopcock.

Run me through how they'd do that.

Valetta

Daith wrote: »

Yes the standing charge but Irish Water will charge me THE FULL AMOUNT! Would you have an issue if ESB or Bord Gais charged you for using their services when you didn't?

Use twice as much for the three weeks after you come back.

That'll teach them.

papu

Banjo String wrote: »

Run me through how they'd do that.

Nah i'm not giving my secrets away.

The point is if people don't pay they should get any water.

Hiding behind a strawman argument thinking "sure they'll never be able to cut us off" isn't going to work.

Perhaps you'll just get billed anyway and brought to court for not paying , who knows.

Daith

Valetta wrote: »

Use twice as much for the three weeks after you come back.

That'll teach them.

Would you have an issue with the ESB charging you more? Or would you just stop using electricity to balance it out?

Besides I thought Irish Water was there to help people conserve water.

Phoebas

Banjo String wrote: »

Yeah, but I'm curious here.

No contract, no meter, I dont know what the long-term effect will be if thousands of homeowners don't engage, and refuse to pay.

If they're taken to court, say they never asked to be customers etc, can a court rule they must pay, or stop availing of the services.

How will they be able to tell if a customer did use the services without a meter, or how will they stop them using services without a meter?

Could be a very costly experiment by Irish Water and the government.

If you're attached to the public system then you have to pay - metered or not. This is pretty straightforward.
If you refuse to pay then normal enforcement action will be taken. Also pretty straightforward.

Some people will invariably fall through the net, just like some people get away without paying other bills or who cheat on their taxes or who rip off the social. Its just leakage in the system.

Banjo String

papu wrote: »

Nah i'm not giving my secrets away.

The point is if people don't pay they should get any water.

Hiding behind a strawman argument thinking "sure they'll never be able to cut us off" isn't going to work.

Perhaps you'll just get billed anyway and brought to court for not paying , who knows.

Its hardly a strawman argument.

You refuse to sign a contract from Irish Water.

You are unmetered, and receive a bill, which you refuse to pay.

If you're brought to court, how can they tell if you did in fact use water without a meter? Which I'd imagine would make it difficult for a court to compelling you to pay.

Add to that the fact they have stated in their contract that you either are or are not a customer, and give them permission to set up an account to bill you,

otherwise I am declaring that I am not a customer of Irish Water

Would that mean they (Irish Water) would then have to physically attach a meter to these thousands (tens, maybe hundreds of thousands, who knows) in order to reduce your supply? That would seriously tie up resources Imo. Perfect for a mass civil disobedience stance.

I'm not being difficult, but it would seem it's all very far from clear here.

jonon9

Phoebas wrote: »

They can stop using the IW water and waste water services.

But isn't fresh drinking water and sanitation a human right surely if you don't sign a contract with IW they cut you off as its in breach of human rights

http://www.un.org/waterforlifedecade/human_right_to_water.shtml

Fudge You

kneemos wrote: »

Should outsource it to a British company,bound to have spare capacity for a million or two households.

Sure a small part of the work of Irish Water is already outsourced to RR Donnelley.

darkpagandeath

I would have thought it is illegal to charge you a per units use charge without being able to produce metered information on per units use. As what would happen in cases when either side dispute the amount used ? Would the contract not be for your agreement to be charged via an estimated measurement.

Daith

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I would have thought it is illegal to charge you a per units use charge without being able to produce metered information on per units use. As what would happen in cases when either side dispute the amount used ? Would the contract not be for your agreement to be charged via an estimated measurement.

I'm guessing the contract should specify if it's an assessed charge or metered charge?

If assessed you aren't being charge per unit. If you don't give a valid meter reading to ESB you'll get an incorrect charge too.

Phoebas

Banjo String wrote: »

Its hardly a strawman argument.

You refuse to sign a contract from Irish Water.

You are unmetered, and receive a bill, which you refuse to pay.

If you're brought to court, how can they tell if you did in fact use water without a meter? Which I'd imagine would make it difficult for a court to compelling you to pay.

Add to that the fact they have stated in their contract that you either are or are not a customer, and give them permission to set up an account to bill you,

Would that mean they (Irish Water) would then have to physically attach a meter to these thousands (tens, maybe hundreds of thousands, who knows) in order to reduce your supply?

I'm not being difficult, but it would seem it's all very far from clear here.

If you don't have a meter and you are attached to the public system then you are liable to pay the 'default assessed charge'. This is regardless of how much water you use (or don't use), so there is hardly a need for IW to demonstrate your usage to any court.

You seem to enjoy going over the very same ground over and over again on various Irish Water threads and wilfully ignore the information you're given again and again.

darkpagandeath

Daith wrote: »

I'm guessing the contract should specify if it's an assessed charge or metered charge?

If assessed you aren't being charge per unit. If you don't give a valid meter reading to ESB you'll get an incorrect charge too.

True but you will have entered into a contract with the ESB And they have to fit a meter by law don't they.

Phoebas

jonon9 wrote: »

But isn't fresh drinking water and sanitation a human right surely if you don't sign a contract with IW they cut you off as its in breach of human rights

http://www.un.org/waterforlifedecade/human_right_to_water.shtml

I didn't mention IW cutting anyone off.
Individuals who don't want to pay IW are free to provide their own water (there are many thousands of households in the country who already make their own arrangements).

darkpagandeath

Phoebas wrote: »

I didn't mention IW cutting anyone off.
Individuals who don't want to pay IW are free to provide their own water (there are many thousands of households in the country who already make their own arrangements).

And they will be paying a charge if they are connected to the public sewer system i can guarantee that.

323

policarp wrote: »

It's just another stealth tax.

No.

Worse. Its to be an additional payment, over and above that already payed through general taxation, for a public service. To a private company, with no independent means of redress when they do not provide that public service.

VinLieger

papu wrote: »

A bill is a bill , "resource utilities" aren't paid for by special euros.

What? You are comparing a yearly charge for a fixed bill like a tv license that does not calculate how much to charge you by how much you use with a bill that is directly affected by how much water you use.

Trying to deflect your failure in logic by tying to imply i think things are paid for with "special euros" is childish

Timberrrrrrrr

darkpagandeath wrote: »

And they will be paying a charge if they are connected to the public sewer system i can guarantee that.

Proper order too.

Pro Hoc Vice

policarp wrote: »

It's just another stealth tax.

Why is paying for electricity and gas not a stealth tax, why is paying for a loaf of bread not a stealth tax.

Its funny for years a large number of people in Ireland paid for their water, they sunk a well, the paid for a pump, the pay for electricity to run the pump, they pay to install a septic tank, they pay to pump it clean. The pay to replace the pump.

Why was the State not giving them the money back, was that a stealth tax.

Its simple you get water pay for it, if unhappy with the service don't and complain.

Daith

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

Its funny for years a large number of people in Ireland paid for their water

Everyone has been paying through tax. Not enough yes but I wish people would stop with this "you were getting water for free" bollox.

Pro Hoc Vice

darkpagandeath wrote: »

And they will be paying a charge if they are connected to the public sewer system i can guarantee that.

The majority of people providing their own water provide their own septic tank, problem solved.

darkpagandeath

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

Why is paying for electricity and gas not a stealth tax, why is paying for a loaf of bread not a stealth tax.

Its funny for years a large number of people in Ireland paid for their water, they sunk a well, the paid for a pump, the pay for electricity to run the pump, they pay to install a septic tank, they pay to pump it clean. The pay to replace the pump.

Why was the State not giving them the money back, was that a stealth tax.

Its simple you get water pay for it, if unhappy with the service don't and complain.

Water is already paid for, Or there would be no water. It's quite simple.

mickydoomsux

The phrase "stealth tax" is asinine anyway.

Everyone knows about these things and won't shut the **** up about them.

Not exactly the definition of "stealth", is it?

mickydoomsux

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Water is already paid for, Or there would be no water. It's quite simple.

So you shouldn't have to pay for anything you use that already exists?

Flawless logic.

Daith

mickydoomsux wrote: »

So you shouldn't have to pay for anything you use that already exists?

Flawless logic.

No, it's when people moan with "Oh you don't want to pay for water" rubbish.

papu

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Water is already paid for, Or there would be no water. It's quite simple.

It's paid for by the huge unsustainable loans the government takes out.

Pro Hoc Vice

Daith wrote: »

Everyone has been paying through tax. Not enough yes but I wish people would stop with this "you were getting water for free" bollox.

By getting water provided by the state all paid for it, by providing your own water you paid for your own supply and you also paid the tax everyone else paid, so in effect paid twice for your water. Now a fair system has come in and people are moaning.

Daith

papu wrote: »

It's paid for by the huge unsustainable loans the government takes out.

Are you saying that no taxes from the public contributes to the water infrastructure?

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

By getting water provided by the state all paid for it.

Same question. Public taxes have never went into our water infrastructure?

darkpagandeath

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

By getting water provided by the state all paid for it, by providing your own water you paid for your own supply and you also paid the tax everyone else paid, so in effect paid twice for your water. Now a fair system has come in and people are moaning.

I don't have a meter or will ever have one how is that fair ? I can sit here with the shower on all day and all the taps running.

Pro Hoc Vice

papu wrote: »

It's paid for by the huge unsustainable loans the government takes out.

Yes every year for the past 6 years the loans taken out to keep the hospitals open, the over 65's paid their pension, the schools open. The state was running a a 20 billion a year loss where else was the money to come from.

Zubeneschamali

323 wrote: »

Its to be an additional payment, over and above that already payed through general taxation, for a public service. To a private company, with no independent means of redress when they do not provide that public service.

A bit like electricity, and gas, and bins, and phone service?

Daith

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I don't have a meter or will ever have one how is that fair ? I can sit here with the shower on all day and all the taps running.

It's not fair. People here seem quite happy that people will have to pay for water they don't use and start using rubbish comparisons with contracts to prove their point.

Pro Hoc Vice

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I don't have a meter or will ever have one how is that fair ? I can sit here with the shower on all day and all the taps running.

A person supplying their own water can do the same. If a person does not have a meter they are still paying.

darkpagandeath

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

A bit like electricity, and gas, and bins, and phone service?

Yup that's fine you have an opportunity to go with another company if you don't like their service. Can you do that with water ? It’s effectively a captive market where they can charge what they like. And will you just see. When people start saving water and they cant raise enough money the unit price goes up.

Phoebas

Daith wrote: »

Everyone has been paying through tax. Not enough yes but I wish people would stop with this "you were getting water for free" bollox.

When people say 'free' they mean 'free at the point of access'. Its clear to everyone that water was being paid for.

Many thousands of people who provided their own water and wastewater treatment were also contributing through the tax system to the public system. There weren't too many people starting threads on boards complaining about double taxation or stealth taxes until they were asked to contribute directly.

darkpagandeath

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

A person supplying their own water can do the same. If a person does not have a meter they are still paying.

Then why have the Government been spinning "It's to conserve water" ?

Pro Hoc Vice

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Water is already paid for, Or there would be no water. It's quite simple.

Yes and some people paid twice (it's that simple) they did not get a rebate of tax or a credit, so some people got water as part of the public service they paid for and others also paid for the public water and again had to pay to actually provide water. Is that simple enough for you.

There is nothing incorrect in the statement that some people paid for the actual water they drank. Others paid through direct taxation for many services including water.

Glebee

Anybody know what date the meter starts running and your billable from????

Edit* OK I see it, 1st October I think.