Drugs

thirstywork2

re we losing the battle with drugs in our sport of athletics????In an era when our drink driving laws are down to less than one unit why then has the drugs ban gone in reverse from 4 years to only a 2 year ban for first time drug offenders with clear evidence that the benefits of training with the drug (muscle memory,improved blood transportation etc) still have an unfair advantage when returning to the sport after their ban .Being a coach to aspiring young athletes the issue of drugs in our sport is really a sour point. What is there to discourage them from cheating knowing only "a slap on the wrist 2 year ban" is the penalty if caught ,then they are welcomed back into the fold as if nothing ever happened knowing clearly the benefits of the drugs (EPO) will remain with them when they return to the sport . It's not just the unfair benefits a returning drug offender has,it goes against the spirit of the sport ,it's unethical,and more importantly it's the health issues ,up to 80 athletes have died many in their sleep from EPO as their doped up blood coagulated to stone as they slept never to wake up. Life time ban of all offenders is the only way to send out a clear message to discourage our aspiring young athletes from taking that road.

the above taken from Gary O Hanlon Facebook page.
https://www.facebook.com/garyohanlon12?hc_location=timeline

echancrure

thirstywork2 wrote: »

the above taken from Gary O Hanlon Facebook page.
https://www.facebook.com/garyohanlon12?hc_location=timeline

Great page.

BeepBeep67

And here's me thinking you were carrying a new range in the shop

krafty

From a comment on the page.

[QUOTE=
Meath Marathon Club] I agree with Gary O'Hanlon, life bans are the way but that isn't the law at the moment so move on. I don't like the way this has been highlighted. The timing is suspect. Not one Mullingar athlete tagged in the initial post and the timing, the day before a half marathon where a Mullingar athlete will undoubtably walk away with the race! ... Lacks class!
[/QUOTE]

Chivito550

Pretty sensationalist stuff. It's no secret that doping is an issue in our sport. It always has been, always will be. But losing the battle? I'd disagree. The biological passport is catching a lot of people out now. It's a lot harder to get away with things long term now, as we have seen with people being retrospectively stripped. Just look at the women's times now, compared to the 80s. There is no comparison. There are still loads of cheats, but the doping is having a lesser effect that it did back in the Communist era, so at least clean athletes now have a good chance at beating dopers. If Sonia O'Sullivan was born 10 years earlier she wouldn't have won half of what she did.

And this is hardly an issue unique to athletics. It's a problem in all professional sports. Some, like athletics and cycling try to battle the issue, hence why we see lots of positive tests. Others have no appetite to ruin their image (tennis, football) and so prefer to sweep the issue under the carpet and make silly statements like "drugs don't help in our sport".

As Dr Fuentes said to one cyclist about 10 years back "you guys take nothing in comparison to the footballers".

Also, the bans are moving to 4 years starting in 2015.

So to sum up, doping is a big problem in our sport, but no more than in other sports, and no more than it has always been. I don't think the sensationalist statements do our sport any justice being honest.

brutes1

Think 4 year bans are being introduced again ?
http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/athletics/23621134

It would seem testing is having an impact, plenty of names caught . Fear of a 4 year ban may also impact

Many of the mens times are way down on 5-10 years ago - very few sub 13 5k times this year, no one near 8 in the steeplechase, okay its not a top championship year, but would suspect things are cleaner than they have been..

Chivito550

brutes1 wrote: »

Think 4 year bans are being introduced again ?
http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/athletics/23621134

It would seem testing is having an impact, plenty of names caught . Fear of a 4 year ban may also impact

Many of the mens times are way down on 5-10 years ago - very few sub 13 5k times this year, no one near 8 in the steeplechase, okay its not a top championship year, but would suspect things are cleaner than they have been..

A taste of the women's WR's, and the fastest times in recent years :

200m: 21.34 (Allyson Felix 21.69 in 2012)
400m: 47.60 (Sanya Richards went 48.70 about 2006ish, can't remember anybody else going sub 49 since Ana Guevara in 2003)
800m: 1:53 (haha, when is the last time somebody has run sub 1:57?)
1500m: 3:50 (again, most struggle to go sub 4 these days. 3:56 and 3:57 seem to be the limits these days)
3000m: 8:06 (Even today's best Africans are a good 13 seconds or so off this stupid mark)
10000m: 29:31 (I wonder if this time will ever be touched. 29:54ish is the fastest I have ever seen)

This is what annoys me. The sport was blatantly filthier in years gone by, but seems to get more bad rep now, than back then. Maybe we should go down the tennis route of phantom injuries and silent bans....

barryoneill50

Chivito550 wrote: »

A taste of the women's WR's, and the fastest times in recent years :

200m: 21.34 (Allyson Felix 21.69 in 2012)
400m: 47.60 (Sanya Richards went 48.70 about 2006ish, can't remember anybody else going sub 49 since Ana Guevara in 2003)
800m: 1:53 (haha, when is the last time somebody has run sub 1:57?)
1500m: 3:50 (again, most struggle to go sub 4 these days. 3:56 and 3:57 seem to be the limits these days)
3000m: 8:06 (Even today's best Africans are a good 13 seconds or so off this stupid mark)
10000m: 29:31 (I wonder if this time will ever be touched. 29:54ish is the fastest I have ever seen)

This is what annoys me. The sport was blatantly filthier in years gone by, but seems to get more bad rep now, than back then. Maybe we should go down the tennis route of phantom injuries and silent bans....

That's a real eye opener! Didn't realise there was such a substantial difference in times, especially the 800m......

gerard_65

Chivito550 wrote: »

So to sum up, doping is a big problem in our sport, but no more than in other sports, and no more than it has always been. I don't think the sensationalist statements do our sport any justice being honest.

Very true. Recent results shows Rugby is one of the sports where doping is greater than Athletics, but you rarely hear the media mentioning that.
A few years ago an anonymous survey was carried out on doping across a wide range of sports and Golf came out tops, sports like Athletics, Cycling and swimming where well down the list. Can't find anything on this ATM but remember hearing it on the radio.

Krusty_Clown

Top performance by GOH in the Tullamore Half Marathon, a good three minutes clear of the rest of the field. Incidentally, there were no previously convicted drug cheats in attendance. Coincidence?

GoTheDistance

There was a lot of talk around the start and finish in Tullamore today about the Facebook debate/argument which broke out last night. Seems the man at the center of the debate was due to run but pulled out last night despite last minute efforts to convince him to line up.

career move

GoTheDistance wrote: »

There was a lot of talk around the start and finish in Tullamore today about the Facebook debate/argument which broke out last night. Seems the man at the center of the debate was due to run but pulled out last night despite last minute efforts to convince him to line up.

That's a shame. Drugs suck but so does bullying.

dublin runner

career move wrote: »

That's a shame. Drugs suck but so does bullying.

Bullying? Must have missed that.

gerard_65

dublin runner wrote: »

Bullying? Must have missed that.

Read the facebook posts.

dublin runner

gerard_65 wrote: »

Read the facebook posts.

I have twice now. Really struggle to see the bullying to be honest. I thought some of the comments were a bit out of hand.

rom

Expressing an opinion about drug cheats is not bullying. Or else most articles that Delvera O'Rourke writes are a form of bullying. Even that it is clearly directed at person everyone has the right to have an opinion. People are judged on their past and the choices they made. Ethically drug cheats competing once they have served their ban doesn't sit well with many people. Just because you have served your ban doesn't put you back to the same place you were pre ban. Just because the ban is 2 years doesn't mean our memory has to be also. Next you will be telling me that Shaun Wright in Rotherham is being bullied out of his job.

Krusty_Clown

I happen to agree with GOH's sentiment, I just find the timing a little unsettling. I'd rather see GOH beat everyone else out on the road, and not on Facebook.

gerard_65

dublin runner wrote: »

I have twice now. Really struggle to see the bullying to be honest. I thought some of the comments were a bit out of hand.

A sample quote-
'Personally to all the road runners here if you want to make a stance boo convicted drug athlets that partake in road races like martin fagan. A guy who lied and manipulated the public with sob stories. Zero tolerance.'
We all know who GOH was referring to and IMO he shouldn't have posted what he did on facebook. The quote above is from comments on the page, maybe you don't see this as bullying but as far as I'm concerned that behavior amounts to bully boy tactics.
I was a huge fan of Martins and very disappointed when he was caught but I think its time to move on.
Whats done is done and MF has done his time and has to live with himself.

dublin runner

gerard_65 wrote: »

A sample quote-
'Personally to all the road runners here if you want to make a stance boo convicted drug athlets that partake in road races like martin fagan. A guy who lied and manipulated the public with sob stories. Zero tolerance.'
We all know who GOH was referring to and IMO he shouldn't have posted what he did on facebook. The quote above is from comments on the page, maybe you don't see this as bullying but as far as I'm concerned that behavior amounts to bully boy tactics.
I was a huge fan of Martins and very disappointed when he was caught but I think its time to move on.
Whats done is done and MF has done his time and has to live with himself.

While I personally wouldn't enter into a debate on facebook, I wouldn't classify it as bullying. I can see you point though.

pconn062

Have to agree, Facebook is not the place to be having this conversation especially on a page as public as Gary's, which has over 4,000 likes. If you have an issue with an athlete, have it out face-to-face, not on a public forum such as Facebook where the person is not invited to give their side.

nobody told me

Who on earth does gary o hanlon think he is with a post like that? All his own self-promotion has gone to his head I'm afraid.

robinph

gerard_65 wrote: »

A sample quote-
'Personally to all the road runners here if you want to make a stance boo convicted drug athlets that partake in road races like martin fagan. A guy who lied and manipulated the public with sob stories. Zero tolerance.'
We all know who GOH was referring to and IMO he shouldn't have posted what he did on facebook. The quote above is from comments on the page, maybe you don't see this as bullying but as far as I'm concerned that behavior amounts to bully boy tactics.
I was a huge fan of Martins and very disappointed when he was caught but I think its time to move on.
Whats done is done and MF has done his time and has to live with himself.

Only vaguely upto date with the goings on, but booing someone at a race sounds much more like bullying than posting something to Facebook.


Edit: hang on, I may have miss read who said what to who by what medium there... Confused!

walshb

dublin runner wrote: »

While I personally wouldn't enter into a debate on facebook, I wouldn't classify it as bullying. I can see you point though.

Cyber bullying.

GoTheDistance

Perhaps if GOH had Friday back again he wouldn't have posted on Facebook in the manner he posted.

Why did he choose to launch this attack? GOH is very successful in road races all around Ireland already (albeit yesterday he had no elite competition in Tullamore). Was his need to win the race yesterday and the associated prizes so great that he had to resort to those tactics on Friday? I'm really disappointed in him.

dublin runner

nobody told me wrote: »

Who on earth does gary o hanlon think he is with a post like that? All his own self-promotion has gone to his head I'm afraid.

Well obviously you don't know Gary very well. He has every right to express his opinions on all matters running as he without doubt one best athletes in the country. Gary does an incredible amount of good within the running community. You maybe not agree with him and you may argue your point but to question his intregity is going too far.

Asides from that, this entire matter has gotten way out of hand.

dublin runner

walshb wrote: »

Cyber bullying.

Thanks for that.

dublin runner

GoTheDistance wrote: »

Was his need to win the race yesterday and the associated prizes so great that he had to resort to those tactics on Friday?

Ok.

That really is not a fair comment and in my opinion is way out of line.

johnruns

Totally agree with what GOH did,would love to see more top athletes speaking out maybe then it would help discourge the drug cheats from coming back.

GoTheDistance

It is GOH's motives from his Facebook post are what people are unsettled by here - the drug cheats' debate is separate to this.

With a few rare exceptions over the past few years (Dunshaughlin 2012, DCM 2013, Charleville 2012, RnR Half 2013) GOH has continually avoided competiting against the top elite runners here in Ireland. Yes, he regularly places second to Freddy Keron in marathons and has been second twice in Cork to a quality runner. But outside of this? The remainder of his marathon wins (Clonakilty, Connemara, Kildare, Tralee, Newry, Limerick, etc) were against guys who struggle to break 2-40 and hardly even a challenge to him.

GOH is a nice guy and does a lot of work in Irish athletics circles: training athletes, volunteering, etc. His posting the other evening on Facebook was a direct attempt to ensure that a particular athlete did not compete in the Tullamore Half. It worked.

johnruns

GoTheDistance wrote: »

. His posting the other evening on Facebook was a direct attempt to ensure that a particular athlete did not compete in the Tullamore Half. It worked.

Good hopefully more athletes will do the same and get rid of the cheaters.

rom

If the athlete in question was from another country and was coming over here to make a quick buck after be caught doping in the past. There would be little slack given to him. However as he is Irish we cut a bit too much slack. The ban may be only 2 years but that doesn't mean that anyone has to forgive and forget. The benefits achieved due to the training while doping still exist after the ban. It is not a level playing field and the only reason the ban is not 4 years is that someone challenged it due to it not being fair. Its not fair to the Derval O'Rourke's and Rob Heffernans who missed their moment on the podium which would have probably prevented a drop in sports grant in Derval's case. We despise the cheaters in those situations. Fionnuala Britton got 4th in the Euro XC a few years back for one of the top 3 to get done for drugs a few months later. We have no idea if the caught athlete was taking drugs at the time of the euro XC. An elite athletes choices can impact those around them and many Irish athletes have been at the receiving end. Why should we forgive and forget? There should be no place for drug cheats in the sport. Full stop.

Regarding GOH choice of races that he does. It has no relevance in this discussion.


NOTE: Tullamore Harriers state MF hadnt registered for the Tullamore Half marathon at any stage.

NiallG4

GoTheDistance wrote: »

It is GOH's motives from his Facebook post are what people are unsettled by here - the drug cheats' debate is separate to this.

With a few rare exceptions over the past few years (Dunshaughlin 2012, DCM 2013, Charleville 2012, RnR Half 2013) GOH has continually avoided competiting against the top elite runners here in Ireland. Yes, he regularly places second to Freddy Keron in marathons and has been second twice in Cork to a quality runner. But outside of this? The remainder of his marathon wins (Clonakilty, Connemara, Kildare, Tralee, Newry, Limerick, etc) were against guys who struggle to break 2-40 and hardly even a challenge to him.

GOH is a nice guy and does a lot of work in Irish athletics circles: training athletes, volunteering, etc. His posting the other evening on Facebook was a direct attempt to ensure that a particular athlete did not compete in the Tullamore Half. It worked.

You obviously don't know Gary. He rarely misses a national championship race for clonliffe. He has run the national 10k on track regularly in recent years, probably 2 out of last 3 national half marathons, probably 6 out of the last 8 national cross country races. He receives calls and facebook messages on a weekly basis from some of these so called elite runners you refer to enquiring if he is running in certain races. He picks his races and goes. He never ever ducks a challenge. As he says the more the merrier. The dogs in the street knew he was doing Tullamore Half. Not his fault nobody shows up. You could not be any more wrong to accuse him of ducking races. In the past 2 years he has competed North and South and raced whoever turned up be it Paddy Hamilton, Ed McGinley up north or Sergui, Sean Hehir, or Freddie in the south. You obviously have a personal issue with Gary but get your facts right before you accuse him of avoiding competition.

Krusty_Clown

GoTheDistance wrote: »

With a few rare exceptions over the past few years (Dunshaughlin 2012, DCM 2013, Charleville 2012, RnR Half 2013) GOH has continually avoided competiting against the top elite runners here in Ireland. Yes, he regularly places second to Freddy Keron in marathons and has been second twice in Cork to a quality runner. But outside of this? The remainder of his marathon wins (Clonakilty, Connemara, Kildare, Tralee, Newry, Limerick, etc) were against guys who struggle to break 2-40 and hardly even a challenge to him.

This doesn't make any sense at all. GOH is a household name on the race circuit because he runs any and every race and is always on the podium. If the 'top elite runners' are not entering those same races, how is this a reflection on him? Should one feel guilty now for being faster than all of the other runners who turn up for a race?

tunguska

There was a comment from Tullamore saying Martin Fagan had never even entered the bleeding race so Im not sure its fair to say Gary was posting as a passive aggressive means of discouraging any other athlete to run.

dukeraoul

As someone who knows a little bit about coming off as a dick online- if I were advising GOH I'd be telling him to maybe think hard about the point of posting his long winded "opinions" on his professional page but hey I ain't advising him

Agree with the sentiment of the doping rant but as said above timing seemed strange and comes off pretty self righteous

Oh and don't get me started on the d bags in the comment section suggesting Fagan be booed. Grow the **** up

walshb

I have some sympathy and understanding for how difficult it must be for athletes to make sure their bodies are free from what the authorities claim are PEDs

"The banned lists, of which there are two, are complicated and extensive. It is unlikely that a single person on this thread hasn't taken something off the banned list, though doing so would not have likely any benefit and most wouldn't know they've done it. Thing like Pseudoephedrine are over the counter and a doping offence if taken within a day of competing. It wouldn't really be fair to ban harshly on this as it has little benefit on its own. Caffeine above a certain concentration WAS on the banned list until very recently."

TFBubendorfer

walshb wrote: »

Caffeine above a certain concentration WAS on the banned list until very recently.

Caffeine was taken off the banned list in 2004 - hardly "very recently".

That paragraph you quoted smells a bit too much like a ready made excuse. It's every athlete's responsibility to ensure they do not take any banned substances. While it is definitely possible to get caught by sheer bad luck and without trying to cheat, this sounds as if someone is trying to get their excuses in early.

walshb

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Caffeine was taken off the banned list in 2004 - hardly "very recently".

That paragraph you quoted smells a bit too much like a ready made excuse. It's every athlete's responsibility to ensure they do not take any banned substances. While it is definitely possible to get caught by sheer bad luck and without trying to cheat, this sounds as if someone is trying to get their excuses in early.

I understand that it is the athletes' responsibility, but is there a body of people out there who are trying to get stuff removed from the list(s)? It's not a perfect list, and across sports not all lists match. I realize that it cannot be a perfect system, and the authorities have to draw the line somewhere, but I still understand how very difficult it must be for athletes. Not only are they watching so so closely on their own ingestion, but they have to place a certain amount of trust in their team as well.

TFBubendorfer

walshb wrote: »

I understand that it is the athletes' responsibility, but is there a body of people out there who are trying to get stuff removed from the list(s)? It's not a perfect list, and across sports not all lists match. I realize that it cannot be a perfect system, and the authorities have to draw the line somewhere, but I still understand how very difficult it must be for athletes. Not only are they watching so so closely on their own ingestion, but they have to place a certain amount of trust in their team as well.

I don't know how it works if you have a team supporting you, but obviously you would have to put your full trust into everyone involved.

What I can tell you is that as a lone, unsupported athlete who is trying to make a team, the whole drugs thing is a bit of a nightmare. For example, Wada recommend that no supplements whatsoever should be taken, ever, because nobody can fully guarantee that there is no cross contamination. So you chuck out all your Vitamin pills, never take any medicine and hope that the mug you use for coffee at work doesn't inadvertently contain traces of some stuff that you have never even heard of.

So yes, it's definitely possible to get caught even if you're 100% honest, just unlucky. However, that paragraph still does not sit right with me (and it clearly has no relation to what happened to MF).

walshb

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

I don't know how it works if you have a team supporting you, but obviously you would have to put your full trust into everyone involved.

What I can tell you is that as a lone, unsupported athlete who is trying to make a team, the whole drugs thing is a bit of a nightmare. For example, Wada recommend that no supplements whatsoever should be taken, ever, because nobody can fully guarantee that there is no cross contamination. So you chuck out all your Vitamin pills, never take any medicine and hope that the mug you use for coffee at work doesn't inadvertently contain traces of some stuff that you have never even heard of.

So yes, it's definitely possible to get caught even if you're 100% honest, just unlucky. However, that paragraph still does not sit right with me (and it clearly has no relation to what happened to MF).

Yes, Fagan intentionally cheated. And, I would argue that most athletes that get caught have intentionally cheated.

Was Tyson Gay a possible victim of a cheater in his camp? I know he did try and claim this. I was quite surprised by him getting caught. He always struck me as a clean and genuine athlete. Came across as such.